Scalar Gravitational Theory with Variable Rest Mass

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Discussion Overview

This thread discusses a proposed scalar gravitational theory that suggests a relationship between rest mass and gravitational potential, claiming equivalence to General Relativity (GR) in weak field scenarios while predicting different outcomes in strong fields, particularly regarding black holes and mass-energy conversion. The discussion includes technical critiques, clarifications, and alternative interpretations of gravitational concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the scalar potential relation could yield predictions similar to GR in weak fields but diverges significantly in strong fields, particularly regarding black holes.
  • Others express skepticism about the mathematical formulation presented, with one participant questioning the validity of Equation 1 and its alignment with established GR tensors and equations.
  • A participant highlights the importance of distinguishing between inertial and gravitational mass, suggesting that the theory may imply different roles for these types of mass in gravitational interactions.
  • There are concerns about the clarity of the paper, with some participants finding it difficult to follow and questioning specific definitions and assumptions, such as the conservation of energy.
  • Corrections to earlier claims are made, including a clarification regarding the notation used in the equations, which some participants found misleading.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of agreement and disagreement. While some acknowledge the potential of the proposed theory, others challenge its mathematical foundations and conceptual clarity. The discussion remains unresolved with competing views on the validity of the claims made in the paper.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential errors in the mathematical formulation, unclear definitions of terms, and assumptions regarding energy conservation that may not align with traditional views in GR. The discussion reflects ongoing uncertainties and challenges in the interpretation of gravitational theories.

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dtfroedge
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ABSTRACT
In this paper we will present the mechanical dynamics of a gravitational system resulting from a specific, rest mass, scalar potential relation, that is equivalent in predicting orbital and photon motion to that of General Relativity in the weak field solutions. The weak solutions of General Relativity do not appear to be contradicted by this development, and in this range the physical difference may not be measurable. The strong field solutions will be significantly different, however since, in this scalar relation, the rest mass goes to zero at at Scwarzschild boundary. The consequences of the mass dependence gravitational potential results, for large masses, not in the prediction of black holes, but rather mass to Gamma ray converters.
 

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Revised version

Due to the helpful input of several readers this paper has gone through a series of revisions, the latest of which is located at:
http://www.arxdtf.org/css/grav2.pdf
The math in this paper has been gone through multiple times by myself and others, but errors are not inconceivable. The most notable differences in this paper with GR are in the predicted properties of black holes, and should be the most likely avenue of success or crash for the paper.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Technical does not mean sensible

Hello:

Equation 1 looks like nonsense to me. In standard GR, we have a few well defined tensors.

The Riemann curvature tensor:
R^{\alpha}_{\beta \mu \nu}

The Ricci tensor, a contract of the Riemann curvature tensor:
R_{\mu \nu}

The Ricci scalar, a contract of the Ricci tensor:
R

The metric tensor
g_{\mu \nu}

And the stress energy tensor:
T_{\mu \nu}

One starts with the Hilbert action:

S = \int \sqrt{-g} d^4 x R

and by varying this action with respect to the metric tensor, one gets three terms. One of these is zero (I think it is the boundary of a boundary term based on a theorem by Gauss). The result is the Einstein field equations:

R_{\mu \nu} - \frac{1}{2}g_{\mu \nu}R= 8 \pi T_{\mu \nu}

As I vaguely understand it, should you choose not to work with the Ricci scalar, it can in a way be moved over to the other side of the equation.

Anyway, that is a brief description of the road to the Einstein field equations.

Here is equation 1, taken directly from the paper:

R^t_t = 8 \pi (T^t_t - T)

By Einstein's summation convension, the left hand side should just be the Ricci scalar, and the right hand side should be zero. The Ricci scalar can equal zero, but that is not too interesting. At this point I stop reading.

doug
 
I found this a bit difficult to follow. Do you use Newton's definition of the grav field to calculate \alpha ? What is \mu ?

We will take Eq.(3) to be the defining relation for the motion of the particles in the system, and presume that the total energy of a particle in a conservative system to be constant.
(my emphasis) Conservation of energy should be guaranteed, not assumed.

You do not mention inertial vs gravitational mass. I think you might be saying that the mass which generates the field is different from the mass that 'feels' the field.

I don't think it's right, but it is interesting to see another theory of gravity.
 
sweetser said:
Hello:

Equation 1 looks like nonsense to me. In standard GR, we have a few well defined tensors.



R^t_t = 8 \pi (T^t_t - T)

By Einstein's summation convension, the left hand side should just be the Ricci scalar, and the right hand side should be zero. The Ricci scalar can equal zero, but that is not too interesting. At this point I stop reading.

doug

sweetser:
Apologies and thanks for the 1/2 typo which has been corrected.
R^t_t = 8 \pi (T^t_t - 1/2T)
This historical reference to negative Komar mass is on well worked out physics available in most texts, and I didn't think the notatio needed to be that precise, I just used the short notation used by Ansorg in the paper cited.
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0607/0607091v2.pdf
My apologizes if it triggered misgivings.
 
Mentz114 said:
I found this a bit difficult to follow. Do you use Newton's definition of the grav field to calculate \alpha ? What is \mu ?


(my emphasis) Conservation of energy should be guaranteed, not assumed.

You do not mention inertial vs gravitational mass. I think you might be saying that the mass which generates the field is different from the mass that 'feels' the field.

I don't think it's right, but it is interesting to see another theory of gravity.

\mu is just the gravitationla radius Gm/c^2

The presumption is that particle energy
mc ^{2} = m_{\o}c^{2} + G M m/r = m _{\o}c^{2} +1/2mv}^{2} =constant
, is not the normal assumption. The normal assumption is that gravitational energy is being contributed by the gravitational field as the particle decends. The present presumption is that the total particle energy is constant, with no contribution by the field. The source of the kinetic energy being extracted from the loss of the rest mass
 

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