Second postulate of SR quiz question

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I recently quizzed physicists in my workplace with the following question: The speed c in the second postulate refers to:
a) the one-way speed of light
b) the round-trip speed of light
c) Both
d) Neither

I was surprised at the variety of answers. What do you say?
 
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I would say d). The "c" in the second postulate refers to an intrinsic property of spacetime: a conversion factor between units of time and units of distance.
 
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loislane, as the second postulate can be worded in a number of different ways, it would do no harm to quote which version you are referring to. Or is that ambiguity part of the quiz?
 
PeterDonis said:
I would say d). The "c" in the second postulate refers to an intrinsic property of spacetime: a conversion factor between units of time and units of distance.

Well, in Einstein's original paper seemed pretty definitely to be referring to the speed of light:
2. Any ray of light moves in the “stationary” system of co-ordinates with the determined velocity c, whether the ray be emitted by a stationary or by amoving body.​
http://hermes.ffn.ub.es/luisnavarro/nuevo_maletin/Einstein_1905_relativity.pdf (top of page 4)
 
stevendaryl said:
Well, in Einstein's original paper seemed pretty definitely to be referring to the speed of light:
2. Any ray of light moves in the “stationary” system of co-ordinates with the determined velocity c, whether the ray be emitted by a stationary or by amoving body.​
http://hermes.ffn.ub.es/luisnavarro/nuevo_maletin/Einstein_1905_relativity.pdf (top of page 4)

While this is true, I would agree with Peter regarding the modern view of relativity, where ##c## is just a conversion factor between units of space and units of time. It then follows that massless fields propagate at ##c##, which means that light propagates at ##c##. I would say that the nomenclature "speed of light" is a historical remnant due to light being the first thing discovered to propagate with the invariant speed. At the time of Einstein, it was natural and had light not had the property of traveling at the invariant speed, relativity would have taken significantly longer to develop.
 
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Orodruin said:
While this is true, I would agree with Peter regarding the modern view of relativity, where ##c## is just a conversion factor between units of space and units of time.

But the question was about Einstein's "second postulate", so it would seem to be more about Einstein's original presentation, rather than the modern understanding.
 
stevendaryl said:
But the question was about Einstein's "second postulate", so it would seem to be more about Einstein's original presentation, rather than the modern understanding.
Einstein is not mentioned in the OP. That there is a speed which is independent of the observer can still be taken as a postulate of SR.
 
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Going back to Einstein, c as two way speed was a measurement, one way speed was a postulate which produced the simplest models consistent with measurement. I believe Einstein was well aware that one way speed had to be a postulate of "immense convenience" but unknowable truth.
 
loislane said:
What do you say?

What do you say? :smile:
 
  • #10
Perhaps you could clarify what is meant by a two-way speed of light? If a beam of light strikes a mirror and gets bounced back, it travels at c (in vacuo) in each direction.

I do not see why we must choose between thinking of c as the speed of light in vacuo, on one hand, and thinking of c as a conversion factor between units of distance and units of time, on the other.
 
  • #11
MindWalk said:
Perhaps you could clarify what is meant by a two-way speed of light? If a beam of light strikes a mirror and gets bounced back, it travels at c (in vacuo) in each direction.
That is an assumption. It is a very good and very plausible assumption and most people are willing to accept it without argument, but it's still an assumption and not an experimentally proven fact. Many people have proposed experiments that appear to (at least in principle) measure the one-way speed of light, but if you dig deep into these proposals you'll find that there's a hidden assumption that the speed is the same in each direction. You'll find a number of threads about this if you search this forum.

I do not see why we must choose between thinking of c as the speed of light in vacuo, on one hand, and thinking of c as a conversion factor between units of distance and units of time, on the other.
That, I think, is a defensible position. The first is the historical path that brought us to special relativity. The second is the better (shorter, simpler, fewer hidden assumptions, fewer limitations, springboard for further progress) understanding that we found once we had arrived and realized what we had discovered.
 
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  • #12
loislane said:
I was surprised at the variety of answers. What do you say?

It's not that surprising when we consider that:
1) Neither Einstein's presentation of the "postulates" of SR nor his derivations based on them come anywhere near the level of precision that a mathematician would demand from a postulate and the proofs derived from it. That's an observation, not a criticism - but it does leave much room for difference of opinion about exactly what is being postulated.
2) The modern understanding of SR is quite different from the historical understanding, and that affects the interpretation of the second postulate.
3) The second postulate makes its point in a rather odd (in hindsight) way. If you accept the first postulate at face value, and accept Maxwell's electrodynamics, and apply Occam's razor, you'll find only two possibilities. Either the speed of light in vacuum is the same for all observers, or you have to make an additional assumption that there is a luminiferous aether or equivalent which allows us to distinguish the absolute state of motion of different observers. So why not state the second postulate as "And no additional assumptions needed" or "And I don't need no stinkin' aether!" or "And I really mean the first postulate, even when it comes to the electrodynamics of moving bodies"? The answer, of course, is that none of those formulations would have been convincing in 1905. Again, this creates much opportunity for the post-1905 crowd, blessed with hindsight, to disagree about exactly what truth lies behind the wording of the second postulate.

This might be a good time to quote F. Scott Fitzgerald: "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function". Considering the different ways that the second postulate can be interpreted is far more illuminating than arguing about which one is right.
 
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  • #13
MindWalk said:
Perhaps you could clarify what is meant by a two-way speed of light? If a beam of light strikes a mirror and gets bounced back, it travels at c (in vacuo) in each direction.

I do not see why we must choose between thinking of c as the speed of light in vacuo, on one hand, and thinking of c as a conversion factor between units of distance and units of time, on the other.

The difference between two-way speed and one-way speed is that two-way (or round-trip) speed doesn't require a convention for synchronizing distant clocks. You can measure (in principle) the round-trip speed of light using a standard meterstick and a single clock: Put a mirror at one end of the stick and measure the round-trip time for light to travel from the other end to the mirror, and back. That measurement gives you an average speed of light, but it doesn't give you the one-way speed unless you assume that light has the same speed in all directions.
 
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  • #14
Orodruin said:
Einstein is not mentioned in the OP. That there is a speed which is independent of the observer can still be taken as a postulate of SR.

Yes, but when someone says "THE second postulate of SR" without adding "according to the presentation in such-and-such book or paper" I would think that it would mean the original presentation by Einstein. No other presentation is famous enough to use the definite article.
 
  • #15
stevendaryl said:
Yes, but when someone says "THE second postulate of SR" without adding "according to the presentation in such-and-such book or paper" I would think that it would mean the original presentation by Einstein. No other presentation is famous enough to use the definite article.

But loislane has seemingly dropped out of the discussion; otherwise, she could confirm what she meant by "the second postulate".
 
  • #16
loislane said:
I recently quizzed physicists in my workplace with the following question: The speed c in the second postulate refers to:
a) the one-way speed of light
b) the round-trip speed of light
c) Both
d) Neither

I was surprised at the variety of answers. What do you say?
The way Einstein phrased it in 1905 was ambiguous.
He was clearer in 1907, as he phrased it in terms of a), but such that it effectively refers to b):

"We [...] assume that the clocks can be adjusted in such a way that
the propagation velocity of every light ray in vacuum - measured by
means of these clocks - becomes everywhere equal to a universal
constant c, provided that the coordinate system is not accelerated."

The essential point is that distant simultaneity is not postulated.
 
  • #17
harrylin said:
The way Einstein phrased it in 1905 was ambiguous.
He was clearer in 1907, as he phrased it in terms of a), but such that it effectively refers to b):

"We [...] assume that the clocks can be adjusted in such a way that
the propagation velocity of every light ray in vacuum - measured by
means of these clocks - becomes everywhere equal to a universal
constant c, provided that the coordinate system is not accelerated."

The essential point is that distant simultaneity is not postulated.

Yes. In a certain sense, one-way speed of light is purely a matter of convention, because it depends on how distant clocks are synchronized.
 
  • #18
This thing with the mirror in the "two-way speed of light" definition brings me to another question. The question is, which "speed" is meant here. Is it (the magnitude of) phase velocity, group velocity, front velocity or whatever else you can think of?

Without thinking much about it, seen from the perspective of Einstein 1905 it's the constant occurring in Maxwell's equations in vacuo (nowadays it's hidden in the mess of the SI, but it's of course there in form of ##c^2=1/(\epsilon_0 \mu_0)##, and that's the phase velocity, as seen when looking for the plane-wave modes. That's also what's measured in the Michelson-Morley experiment, where one looks on interference fringes of a stationary wave in the interferometer.

Now, what about the literal "two-way speed of light", where you send a signal (i.e., a wave packet) to a mirror and observe the reflected wave packet. Couldn't there be some delay since the signal has to reflect at the mirror? I'd have to do the calculation to check this. It's perhaps also not so easy to really do this as an experiment, I guess. So are there experiments measuring the "two-way speed of light" really in this way, i.e., sending a wave packet and measuring the arrival time of this back reflected wave packet and how accurate can this be made? Note that wave packets have a finite width and each photodetector has a threshold. Of course you can use the same detector for the outgoing and the reflected wave packet. You also need a large enough distance in order to measure well separated wave packets. If you are to close to the mirror you may measure some wave field which is a superposition of the incoming and the reflected partial waves. As I said, I have to do the calculation.

The same is of course also true for the one-way speed, but there's no possible delay due to a reflection at the mirror. There you'd of course need to photodetectors to measure the time the wave packet needs to travel the distance and consequently a convention to synchronize the clocks to measure the arrival time between the two detectors. A la Einstein that's done by assuming that the one-way speed is the same as the two-way speed (assuming that there's no time delay due to the reflection.
 
  • #19
Thanks everyoune for replying.

PeterDonis said:
I would say d). The "c" in the second postulate refers to an intrinsic property of spacetime: a conversion factor between units of time and units of distance.
Actually that way out of the question was not considered valid by me because as commented by other posters considering c a conversion factor is independent of its being a speed and certainly in all the variants of the second postulate that is its meaning, even when defined as conversion factor either for the meter or the second it is referred to as distance traveled by light in a certain time or time it takes light to traverse a certain distance in vacuum.
DrGreg said:
loislane, as the second postulate can be worded in a number of different ways, it would do no harm to quote which version you are referring to. Or is that ambiguity part of the quiz?
Not intentionally, but then I realized that ambiguity is inevitable due to the ambiguous way the postulates are worded in different sources, and even within Einstein's first formulation in 1905. This has also been acknowledged by some posters.
PAllen said:
Going back to Einstein, c as two way speed was a measurement, one way speed was a postulate which produced the simplest models consistent with measurement. I believe Einstein was well aware that one way speed had to be a postulate of "immense convenience" but unknowable truth.
I think he was quite aware of the ambiguity he was allowing into the theory. He was mainly after a way to rationalize the Lorentz transformations in a way completely different from Lorentz and Poincare and their absolute rest. A certain calculated ambiguity was essential for that basically interpretational goal.

harrylin said:
The way Einstein phrased it in 1905 was ambiguous.
[...]
The essential point is that distant simultaneity is not postulated.
I find this an essential point too. But then the relativity of simultaneity was his very clever way to depart from the Lorentz ether. After all distant simultaneity is more philosophical than physical(in the sense of empirically showing whose clocks are really the correctly synchronized ones from their point of view, being a symmetrical situation there is no "correct" observer) . The real physics and math of the theory lies on the Lorentz transformations themselves.

jtbell said:
What do you say? :smile:
I have to first say that even though the 4 options showed up most people answered b, maybe because the context of Einstein first paper was more implicitly assumed, and in that paper it is the case that c is defined in a formula as the average speed over twice the distance AB, but indeed there is room and arguments to choose any of the four options due to the commented ambiguity and lack of mathematical rigor of the postulates.
I went for d) basically because with any of the other three one can find ways to convince oneself that the postulates lead to contradictions that anyway cannot be proved precisely due to the ambivalence of the semantics of the postulates and the concept of distant simultaneity.
 
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  • #20
My answer would be that I don't know, because the question refers to a particular formulation of an obsolete axiomatization, and I don't think anyone in the year 2015 should be memorizing that kind of historical trivia (what's postulate #1, what's postulate #2, etc.). I think it's unfortunate if people are still teaching their students SR using Einstein's postulates, because they reinforce various misconceptions, such as the belief that c has something to do with the speed of light, or that light plays some fundamental role in relativity. Since Einstein himself had a view of SR that, looking back from 2015, seems to have been in many ways hazy and incorrect, why would it be of interest to anyone other than historians of science to try to figure out exactly what he had in mind?
 
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  • #21
loislane said:
considering c a conversion factor is independent of its being a speed and certainly in all the variants of the second postulate that is its meaning, even when defined as conversion factor either for the meter or the second it is referred to as distance traveled by light in a certain time or time it takes light to traverse a certain distance in vacuum.

The fact that we use light, as a practical matter, as our standard for the conversion factor does not mean the conversion factor, considered as a postulate, refers to the speed of light. We use light as the standard because it's the most easily accessible massless field we know of. If we discovered some other massless field that we could use to establish a more accurate standard than using light, we'd use that. Such a change would not change the second postulate of SR, in its modern form, at all.

(As others have commented, Einstein's original form did specifically mention the speed of light; but your OP didn't say "Einstein's second postulate", it only said "the second postulate", which, to me, means you're talking about the postulate in its best modern formulation, i.e., you're talking about physics, not history.)
 
  • #22
Nugatory said:
[..] 3) The second postulate makes its point in a rather odd (in hindsight) way. If you accept the first postulate at face value, and accept Maxwell's electrodynamics, and apply Occam's razor, you'll find only two possibilities. Either the speed of light in vacuum is the same for all observers, or you have to make an additional assumption that there is a luminiferous aether or equivalent which allows us to distinguish the absolute state of motion of different observers. So why not state the second postulate as "And no additional assumptions needed" or "And I don't need no stinkin' aether!" or "And I really mean the first postulate, even when it comes to the electrodynamics of moving bodies"? The answer, of course, is that none of those formulations would have been convincing in 1905. Again, this creates much opportunity for the post-1905 crowd, blessed with hindsight, to disagree about exactly what truth lies behind the wording of the second postulate.
The essential feature of Maxwell's electrodynamics for the derivation is contained in the second postulate, and Einstein clarified (1907):

"It is by no means self-evident that the assumption made here, which we will call "the principle of the constancy of the velocity of light," is actually realized in nature, but -at least for a coordinate system in a certain state of motion- it is made plausible by the confirmation of the Lorentz theory [Lorentz1895], which is based on the assumption of an ether that is absolutely at rest, through experiment [Fizeau].

Classical relativity remains a possible solution without the second postulate (and with Occam's razor, it can be argued to be the most plausible one).
 
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  • #23
loislane said:
[..] I have to first say that even though the 4 options showed up most people answered b, maybe because the context of Einstein first paper was more implicitly assumed, and in that paper it is the case that c is defined in a formula as the average speed over twice the distance AB, but indeed there is room and arguments to choose any of the four options due to the commented ambiguity and lack of mathematical rigor of the postulates.
I went for d) basically because with any of the other three one can find ways to convince oneself that the postulates lead to contradictions that anyway cannot be proved precisely due to the ambivalence of the semantics of the postulates and the concept of distant simultaneity.
What contradictions could possibly be imagined with b)?
 
  • #24
bcrowell said:
My answer would be that I don't know, because the question refers to a particular formulation of an obsolete axiomatization, and I don't think anyone in the year 2015 should be memorizing that kind of historical trivia (what's postulate #1, what's postulate #2, etc.). I think it's unfortunate if people are still teaching their students SR using Einstein's postulates, because they reinforce various misconceptions, such as the belief that c has something to do with the speed of light, or that light plays some fundamental role in relativity. Since Einstein himself had a view of SR that, looking back from 2015, seems to have been in many ways hazy and incorrect, why would it be of interest to anyone other than historians of science to try to figure out exactly what he had in mind?
In general I agree with you that teaching physics in the "historical" way is not always the best choice, also some knowledge about the history of physics is also good to gain understanding of the meaning of concepts, despite the fact that history is also an interesting subject in itself.

On the other hand, in this case, I'm not so sure. Physics is, after all, an empirical science and based on observations and the attempt to find some fundamental observations that can be used to build mathematical models in a bit like an axiomatic approach (although I don't think that we have a sharp axiomatic system of all of contemporary physics).

It is no surprise that relativity was discovered by thinking about electromagnetic phenomena as they were summarized brillantly in form of Maxwell's equations and a bit later in form of Lorntz's "elctron theory". The speed of light has been part of Maxwell's equations and was found to be the phase velocity of electromagnetic waves, which finally were experimentally discovered and investigated in detail by H. Hertz. This is still the most convincing empirical manifestation of the relativistic space-time model.

Of course, it is important to stress that relativity is comprehensive and not limited to electromagnetic/optical phenomena. You can derive the special-relativistic space-time structure just from the special principle of relativity and symmetry assumptions (which boils down to postulate euclidicity of space for any inertial observer). Then you get two space-time models in terms of the corresponding symmetry groups, i.e., the Galilei-Newton spacetime and Einstein-Minkowski spacetime. It is, of course, still an empirical question to decide which one describes nature better, and then again the most convincing arguments come from electromagnetism and optics. Last but not least the question, whether the limiting universal speed of Einstein-Minkowski spacetime is the phase velocity of light or not, is still just really empirical. There is no fundamental law in contemporary physics, which can be used as an argument that electromagnetic waves are strictly massless vector fields (or in QFT language that the photons are really exactly massless). There is of course overwhelming empirical evidence that this is true.

Of course, nowadays another strong argument for the correctness of the relativistic spacetime models is high-energy particle physics. To construct the accelerators to do experiments with particles and nuclei at high energies, the use of relativistic dynamics is mandatory. You couldn't use Newtonian physics to plan an accelerator like the LHC. Note that this part is also very much (classical) electrodynamics and relativistic mechanics of (bunches of) charged particles. Then the tremendous success of the Standard Model is of course further strong evidence for the relativistic spacetime model which is the most important building block of the underlying local microcausal QFT paradigm (which to a large part is representation theory of the Poincare group, which strongly hints towards the usefulness of gauge theories).

But a modern physics didactics does not wait to introduce relativity at the end of the undergrad level, and in my opinion, right so. You can not start early enough to introduce special relativity at least in the theory curriculum (in Frankfurt that's usualy already done at the end of the very 1st freshmen semester). Then you cannot use high-brow group theory or field theory to establish relativity, but the traditional approach a la Einstein is very valuable. It comes with a minimum of assumptions, and you can do relativistic mechanics of point particles in this way, which is nice as a conclusion for the 1st theory semester and a good starting point for E+M in the 3rd (in the 2nd semester usually you have analytical mechanics (Hamilton's action principle etc), where usually also the relativistic case is treated again).
 
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  • #25
harrylin said:
The essential feature of Maxwell's electrodynamics for the derivation is contained in the second postulate, and Einstein clarified (1907):

"It is by no means self-evident that the assumption made here, which we will call "the principle of the constancy of the velocity of light," is actually realized in nature, but -at least for a coordinate system in a certain state of motion- it is made plausible by the confirmation of the Lorentz theory [Lorentz1895], which is based on the assumption of an ether that is absolutely at rest, through experiment [Fizeau].

Classical relativity remains a possible solution without the second postulate (and with Occam's razor, it can be argued to be the most plausible one).
If you have the Maxwell equations at hand, you can introduce relativity very easily by just looking for the spacetime symmetry under which the Maxwell equations are covariant. Of course, that there is a universal constant with the dimension of a speed involved is evident from the equations to begin with, although nowadays hidden in the complicated SI units ;-). So it is immediately clear, without much deeper mathematics, that the Galileo symmetry of Newtonian mechanics cannot be the right thing, because there no such universal constant is seen.
 
  • #26
vanhees71 said:
If you have the Maxwell equations at hand, you can introduce relativity very easily [..]
Yes of course; neither Newton's nor Maxwell's equations were postulated.
 
  • #27
harrylin said:
What contradictions could possibly be imagined with b)?
Well that inmediately implies that the two-way speed is different from the one-way speed, and that brings problems with the implicit assumption of isotropy of spacetime.
In any case there is some ambiguity added by the fact that Einstein defined inertial frames to be those where Newton's laws hold good to the first approximation. But the constancy of light is not required just to the first approximation in the relative motion between source and observer.
 
  • #28
loislane said:
Well that inmediately implies that the two-way speed is different from the one-way speed, and that brings problems with the implicit assumption of isotropy of spacetime.
Not really: one-way speed (not "real" but "apparent") depends on simultaneity convention. That issue should be avoided (as Einstein did); a convention does not belong in a postulate.
In any case there is some ambiguity added by the fact that Einstein defined inertial frames to be those where Newton's laws hold good to the first approximation. But the constancy of light is not required just to the first approximation in the relative motion between source and observer.
Even if the way Einstein phrased it in the 1905 paper may sound a little ambiguous, SR simply uses the inertial frames of classical mechanics. And as postulated, the motion of the source is irrelevant.
 
  • #29
PeterDonis said:
(As others have commented, Einstein's original form did specifically mention the speed of light; but your OP didn't say "Einstein's second postulate", it only said "the second postulate", which, to me, means you're talking about the postulate in its best modern formulation, i.e., you're talking about physics, not history.)

I think it is fair to read "Einstein's second postulate", since the modern form does not have an accepted second postulate. So I would go with PAllen's answer in post #8.

And I'll also cite vanees71's surprising defence of Einstein's approach in post #24!
 
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  • #30
harrylin said:
Not really: one-way speed (not "real" but "apparent") depends on simultaneity convention. That issue should be avoided (as Einstein did); a convention does not belong in a postulate.
Exactly, that's why I said in the last part of the quote that any internal contradiction in this respect cannot be addressed from the theory as not only the semantic ambivalence of the postulates but mainly the relativity of simultaneity act as a safeguard against demonstration of internal inconsistency. The downside of the convention thing is that it is more of a philosophical stance than math or physics.
Even if the way Einstein phrased it in the 1905 paper may sound a little ambiguous, SR simply uses the inertial frames of classical mechanics. And as postulated, the motion of the source is irrelevant.
But then why did Einstein make the correction(it was added after the first publication of the paper) that he was referring to inertial frames where the Newtonian mechanics equations hold good to the first approximation only? The inertial frames of classical mechanics must have held exactly in the Newtonian theory, don't they? So they must be slightly different within SR, as used in postulating Einstein relativity principle.
The second postulate is just a specific example of how not only the laws of mechanics are included in the first postulate but also those of optics and electrodynamics, but if the inertial frames are now taken as valid just to the first approximation, it seems odd that the constancy of c in the second postulate doesn't refer just to v/c in the relative motion.
 
  • #31
loislane said:
But then why did Einstein make the correction(it was added after the first publication of the paper) that he was referring to inertial frames where the Newtonian mechanics equations hold good to the first approximation only? The inertial frames of classical mechanics must have held exactly in the Newtonian theory, don't they? So they must be slightly different within SR, as used in postulating Einstein relativity principle.
The second postulate is just a specific example of how not only the laws of mechanics are included in the first postulate but also those of optics and electrodynamics, but if the inertial frames are now taken as valid just to the first approximation, it seems odd that the constancy of c in the second postulate doesn't refer just to v/c in the relative motion.

Einstein should be referring to the inertial frames of SR. Since Newtonian mechanics holds to first approximation in the inertial frames of SR, that was his way of setting up an operational definition of the inertial frames of SR. I think in his point of view at that time, operational definitions of lots of things were very important. This is why one of the defences of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, which takes an operational view of physics, refers to Einstein's special relativity. Einstein didn't like the Copenhagen view so much, and later stressed the idea that reality is governed by laws of physics.
 
  • #32
Would anyone accept this version of the second postulate as equivalent to the modern form of SR? I essentially just added an "if".

"If light exists as described by the free massless Maxwell's equations in vacuo, then c is postulated to be its one way speed."
 
  • #33
PAllen said:
c as two way speed was a measurement

It was a measurement experimentally speaking; but theoretically, it was a postulate as far as Einstein was concerned. In his formulation, the constant two-way speed of light was not derived from anything else; it was just assumed (and the experimental results were used to justify making the assumption theoretically).

In the modern formulation, as I understand it, a finite invariant speed is viewed as a property of spacetime--that's the postulate. The fact that light--electromagnetic radiation--travels at this finite invariant speed is deduced from that postulate plus the fact that the electromagnetic field is massless. (Or, alternatively, it can be deduced from Maxwell's Equations plus the principle of relativity.)

PAllen said:
one way speed was a postulate which produced the simplest models consistent with measurement.

I'm not sure quite how Einstein viewed the one-way speed of light. An earlier post in this thread pointed out that the one-way speed of light is dependent on a particular simultaneity convention, and such a convention should not be part of a theoretical postulate. Einstein's original formulation did adopt that simultaneity convention, but I would imagine he viewed the constancy of the one-way speed of light as being deduced from the postulate of the two-way speed being constant, plus the adoption of the Einstein simultaneity convention.

Of course, we know now that it's perfectly possible to make the one-way speed of light change by adopting non-inertial coordinates; but the two-way speed of light is a direct observable independent of simultaneity conventions.
 
  • #34
atyy said:
the modern form does not have an accepted second postulate

What vanhees71 described in post #24--first use spacetime symmetries to narrow down the possibilities to either Galilean invariance (no finite invariant speed) or Lorentz invariance (with a finite invariant speed), then adopt a postulate of finite invariant speed (based on experimental evidence) to pick the second of the two--is what I mean by "the modern form". As is evident, a second postulate is needed because spacetime symmetries by themselves (the modern version of the first postulate) leave open two possibilities, not one, so you need a second postulate to choose between them.
 
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  • #35
PeterDonis said:
What vanhees71 described in post #24--first use spacetime symmetries to narrow down the possibilities to either Galilean invariance (no finite invariant speed) or Lorentz invariance (with a finite invariant speed), then adopt a postulate of finite invariant speed (based on experimental evidence) to pick the second of the two--is what I mean by "the modern form". As is evident, a second postulate is needed because spacetime symmetries by themselves (the modern version of the first postulate) leave open two possibilities, not one, so you need a second postulate to choose between them.

It doesn't make sense (to me, anyway) to talk about a first or second or third postulate unless you are talking about a specific formulation. The general idea of special relativity doesn't have an intrinsic ordering to its assumptions about the way the world works.
 
  • #36
PeterDonis said:
What vanhees71 described in post #24--first use spacetime symmetries to narrow down the possibilities to either Galilean invariance (no finite invariant speed) or Lorentz invariance (with a finite invariant speed), then adopt a postulate of finite invariant speed (based on experimental evidence) to pick the second of the two--is what I mean by "the modern form". As is evident, a second postulate is needed because spacetime symmetries by themselves (the modern version of the first postulate) leave open two possibilities, not one, so you need a second postulate to choose between them.
It isn't clear to me why the first special relativity postulate doesn't already narrow the possibilities to a finite invariant speed if it is to include the laws of electrodynamics and optics embodied in Maxwell equations that already contained a finite propagation invariant speed.
Contrary to what some say I don't think Einstein's first postulate was equal to Galilei principle of relativity, the latter only referred to mechanics laws with instantaneous influence, the former is extended to the EM laws and it is galilean only in the sense that it uses galilean inertial frames but again valid only to first order while in the classical mechanics case they were considered exactly valid.
 
  • #37
stevendaryl said:
It doesn't make sense (to me, anyway) to talk about a first or second or third postulate unless you are talking about a specific formulation.

In general I would tend to agree, but the OP has already said that ambiguity is inevitable because there is no one canonical version of the formulation of SR, so basically we're each answering our own version of the question. :wink:
 
  • #38
atyy said:
Einstein should be referring to the inertial frames of SR. Since Newtonian mechanics holds to first approximation in the inertial frames of SR, that was his way of setting up an operational definition of the inertial frames of SR.
This is fine but my point is that he didn't seemingly apply this operational definition of SR inertial frames to his formulation of the second postulate.
 
  • #39
loislane said:
It isn't clear to me why the first special relativity postulate doesn't already narrow the possibilities to a finite invariant speed if it is to include the laws of electrodynamics and optics embodied in Maxwell equations that already contained a finite propagation invariant speed.

This would be another example of ambiguity in formulation; in the formulation vanhees71 was describing, the "first postulate" could be viewed as only talking about spacetime symmetries in general, leading to two possibilities, without invoking any specific physical laws or experiments that rule out one of the two possibilities. But a different view could easily be taken, as you say, according to which "all" of the laws of physics being invariant under those symmetries really means "all", so if any of those laws are inconsistent with a given symmetry group (Galilean invariance being inconsistent with Maxwell's Equations in this case), that symmetry group is ruled out. As you and others have pointed out, the same is true of Einstein's original formulation: if the speed of light is part of the laws of physics (since it appears in Maxwell's Equations), then of course it has to be invariant in all inertial frames if the first postulate is true, and you don't need a separate second postulate to say that it is.
 
  • #40
PeterDonis said:
I'm not sure quite how Einstein viewed the one-way speed of light. An earlier post in this thread pointed out that the one-way speed of light is dependent on a particular simultaneity convention, and such a convention should not be part of a theoretical postulate. Einstein's original formulation did adopt that simultaneity convention, but I would imagine he viewed the constancy of the one-way speed of light as being deduced from the postulate of the two-way speed being constant, plus the adoption of the Einstein simultaneity convention.

Well, two way speed invariant + isotropy -> one way speed invariant in any coordinates adapted to the isotropy. It is (IMO) the norm in physics to assume isotropy unless it leads to a problem. That is, the philosophical debates about how you prove isotropy [really, really hard, in general] are sidestepped by saying 'physicist isotropy' = does the assumption of isotropy lead to simplification. Then, simultaneity convention is secondary - if you use a convention that assumes isotropy, you find isotropy. If you use a convention that does not, it will work, producing more complex equations. We would question isotropy if the assumption of such led to increased complexity.
 
  • #41
PAllen said:
Well, two way speed invariant + isotropy -> one way speed invariant in any coordinates adapted to the isotropy. It is (IMO) the norm in physics to assume isotropy unless it leads to a problem. That is, the philosophical debates about how you prove isotropy [really, really hard, in general] are sidestepped by saying 'physicist isotropy' = does the assumption of isotropy lead to simplification. Then, simultaneity convention is secondary - if you use a convention that assumes isotropy, you find isotropy. If you use a convention that does not, it will work, producing more complex equations. We would question isotropy if the assumption of such led to increased complexity.

I think this may be putting it a little too strongly. We have test theories which include parameters that allow the existence of anisotropy. See, e.g., Clifford Will's thesis, http://thesis.library.caltech.edu/3839/ . Many high-precision tests of relativity, such as clock-comparison tests, can also be interpreted as tests of the isotropy and homogeneity of spacetime.
 
  • #42
bcrowell said:
I think this may be putting it a little too strongly. We have test theories which include parameters that allow the existence of anisotropy. See, e.g., Clifford Will's thesis, http://thesis.library.caltech.edu/3839/ . Many high-precision tests of relativity, such as clock-comparison tests, can also be interpreted as tests of the isotropy and homogeneity of spacetime.
I should have been more precise. Two way light speed measurement isotropy is testable [note, this does not fully prove even two way light speed 'actual' isotropy, because you can posit that different effects cancel so as to always produce an isotropic measurement, e.g. anisotropic ruler behavior + ansisotropic two way light speed can produce isotropic two way measurment]. However, for one way light speed, there are a special class of anisotropic theories that preserve two way isotropy while not having one way isotropy. In these theories, Maxwell's equations become more complex. This latter fact argues for assuming one way isotropy irrespective of simultaneity convention.

Concisely: it is easy to rule out some forms of isotropy experimentally. It is impossible to experimentally to rule out arbitrarily complex conspiratorial anisotropic theories. They are ruled out by assumption due to their excess complexity.
 
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  • #43
PAllen said:
However, for one way light speed, there are a special class of anisotropic theories that preserve two way isotropy while not having one way isotropy. In these theories, Maxwell's equations become more complex. This latter fact argues for assuming one way isotropy irrespective of simultaneity convention.

Isn't such a theory just Maxwell's equations in an accelerated coordinate system? If so, then Maxwell's equations needn't be any more complex in those coordinates, if you express them tensorially.

Related: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/differences-between-different-simultaneity-conventions.743972/
 
  • #44
PeterDonis said:
What vanhees71 described in post #24--first use spacetime symmetries to narrow down the possibilities to either Galilean invariance (no finite invariant speed) or Lorentz invariance (with a finite invariant speed), then adopt a postulate of finite invariant speed (based on experimental evidence) to pick the second of the two--is what I mean by "the modern form". As is evident, a second postulate is needed because spacetime symmetries by themselves (the modern version of the first postulate) leave open two possibilities, not one, so you need a second postulate to choose between them.

PeterDonis said:
In general I would tend to agree, but the OP has already said that ambiguity is inevitable because there is no one canonical version of the formulation of SR, so basically we're each answering our own version of the question. :wink:

I'm citing vanhees71's post as evidence for interpreting the OP to mean "Einstein's second postulate", so as to remove or at least reduce the ambiguity in the question, since the modern form does not have an accepted second postulate (there is no accepted numbering to the modern postulates).

I would still go with PAllen's post #24 and say that it is the one-way speed of light that is postulated. However, as PAllen mentions in post #40, it is also possible to go with the two-way measured speed and consider isotropy as an implicit zeroth assumption.

So do we go with one way or two way? It depends on the interpretation of quantum mechanics :smile:

Ignoring the (rest of the) text, Einstein's postulates what the speed of light is, so this supports the idea that the postulate refers to the one way speed of light. This is consistent with his later views that reality is described by laws of physics.

However, Einstein does stress the operational view in his text about procedures to measure the speed of light, so this supports the two way speed of light. This is why Einstein also can be considered a founder of Copenhagen, although he "renounced" this later.
 
  • #45
bcrowell said:
Isn't such a theory just Maxwell's equations in an accelerated coordinate system? If so, then Maxwell's equations needn't be any more complex in those coordinates, if you express them tensorially.

Related: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/differences-between-different-simultaneity-conventions.743972/

That disguises things, but you still have a choice. There exist coordinates where the connection vanishes and the equations are explicity isotropic (globally, in SR). There are other coordinates with connection coefficients producing anisotropic behavior. Consider the similarity to the older coordinate based definitions of spherical symmetry - if there exists a coordinate transform that takes a general looking metric to one that is manifestly spherically symmetric, we say the spacetime is spherically symmetric. Similarly, if there exists coordinates that display manifest isotropy, you assume (not prove) isotropy.
 
  • #46
On the point I am discussing with Bcrowell:

One could imagine in per-relativistic mechanics, someone noting that expressed sufficiently abstractly in tensors (supposing they were invented earlier), that the laws in a rotating frame could take the same form as in an inertial frame. Then, being religious, declaring that the true state of the universe is that it has an axis through Jerusalem (or Mecca, or wherever), and that inertial frames have no special significance, because it is revealed where the center of the universe is, and everything revolves around that center. It is impossible to experimentally disprove this formulation. In my view, Edwards frames amount to the same thing.

The ability to come up with a group of frames manifesting isotropy with laws in simplest form is non-trivial. It is easy to imagine laws for which that is not true. Thus we take the universe to be isotropic as meaning that we can find such a group. It must remain an assumption, but it is strongly motivated by a web of observations. Once accepted, invariant one way speed of light and standard synchronization being preferred follows - because these are the only ways to manifest the assumed isotropy.
 
  • #47
Question: from the operational viewpoint, is it always the two-way speed of light that is intended? In QFT we postulate Minskowski spacetime, measurement outcomes as events, and no superluminal signalling implemented by spacelike observables commuting. Is that superluminal signalling one way or two way?

The requirement for no superluminal signalling is presumably, since I don't think one runs into any difficuties with killing your grandfather before you are born with one way signalling?

But the implementation of the constraint by requiring commutation of spacelike observables is one way or two way?
 
  • #48
atyy said:
Question: from the operational viewpoint, is it always the two-way speed of light that is intended? In QFT we postulate Minskowski spacetime, measurement outcomes as events, and no superluminal signalling implemented by spacelike observables commuting. Is that superluminal signalling one way or two way?

Well, the prohibition against FTL signalling just means that your signal can't beat a light signal. So it doesn't matter whether you consider one-way or two-way speed, as long as you use the same criterion for your signal and for light.
 
  • #49
stevendaryl said:
Well, the prohibition against FTL signalling just means that your signal can't beat a light signal. So it doesn't matter whether you consider one-way or two-way speed, as long as you use the same criterion for your signal and for light.

Edited:

I suppose I should have asked:

(1) Let's define the speed of light to be just the conversion factor between space and time, ie. we assume Minkowski spacetime and measurement outcomes as spacetime events.

(2a) Do we run into any paradoxes if we allow the one-way signal speed to be greater than the conversion factor between space and time, or do those only arise if our two-way signal speed is greater than the conversion factor between space and time?

(2b) Does the requirement that spacelike observables commute impose a restriction on the one-way signal speed or the two-way signal speed?
 
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  • #50
PAllen said:
two way speed invariant + isotropy -> one way speed invariant in any coordinates adapted to the isotropy

Yes, and those coordinates are inertial coordinates, with simultaneity defined by the Einstein simultaneity convention. So we're saying the same thing, just in different ways.

PAllen said:
simultaneity convention is secondary - if you use a convention that assumes isotropy, you find isotropy

Not if the simultaneity convention can be realized by a physical procedure, as Einstein simultaneity can. That convention does not assume isotropy; the fact that, when an inertial observer adopts this convention, he finds that his coordinates have spatial isotropy, is a physical fact about his state of motion and the physical procedure he uses to realize the simultaneity convention (i.e., the procedure used for Einstein clock synchronization).

To contrast with this, imagine a family of Rindler observers who want to establish a simultaneity convention. They can do so using a method similar to the Einstein method: they exchange light signals with clock reading information. The only change is that they have to adjust for the different clock rates of different Rindler observers; but making that adjustment, they can establish a common simultaneity convention (this amounts to a physical realization of Rindler coordinates). Once they do this, they will find that the spacelike surfaces of simultaneity thus defined are not isotropic--which is what we expect, physically, since the acceleration of the observers picks out a particular direction in space.
 
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