Self force on an accelerating electron

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of self force on an accelerating electron, exploring theoretical implications, models, and the completeness of classical electromagnetism. Participants examine the nature of the electron, its geometry, and the challenges posed by self force in high-energy physics contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the self force on an electron at rest is zero, but it becomes non-zero when the electron is accelerated due to electromagnetic field retardation.
  • Others argue that the self force exists and is a significant issue for high-energy electron accelerators, where synchrotron radiation is a concern.
  • There is a discussion about whether the incompleteness of electromagnetism is a problem with the theory itself or with the idealizations used in modeling particles.
  • Some participants suggest that visualizing self force as a force acting on itself may be misleading, as it involves interactions with emitted radiation and fields.
  • Questions arise regarding the geometry of the electron, with some proposing it should be modeled as a charged sphere, while others advocate for treating it as a point particle.
  • Participants mention the paradox of point charges creating infinite energy fields and how this is addressed in quantum field theories through renormalization.
  • There are references to various theories and reformulations of electrodynamics, including Wheeler-Feynman absorber theory and modifications of Maxwell's equations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the self force, the geometry of the electron, and the completeness of classical electromagnetism. There is no consensus on these issues, and multiple competing perspectives remain throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include unresolved mathematical steps regarding the self force, dependence on definitions of point particles versus extended objects, and the scope of classical electromagnetism versus quantum theories.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying high-energy physics, classical electromagnetism, quantum field theory, and the theoretical foundations of particle physics.

Boltzmann2012
Messages
30
Reaction score
0
In Feynman lectures vol 2, chap 28, it is given that for an electron at rest, the net self force exerted on itself is zero(due to repulsions etc.). But when accelerated, owing to the retardation of the electromagnetic fields, there would be a net self force. A series expansion(with unknown coefficients )has been provided. Can we actually calculate the self force? Does it ever exist?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Yes, it exists. This is a major problem for high-energy accelerators for electrons. There you need to use linear accelerators since in ring accelerators you loose too much energy in synchrotron radiation. On the other hand synchrotron radiation itself is also an interesting light source that can be used for many applications in material sciences, chemestry, and biology.

The theoretical issue is not completely solved, even today. For a very detailed recent review on this matter, have a look at

Fritz Rohrlich, Classical Charged Particles, World Scientific 2007
 
Does that mean the electromagnetism is not complete? Or is this outside the domain?
 
vanhees71 said:
...

The theoretical issue is not completely solved, even today. For a very detailed recent review on this matter, have a look at

Fritz Rohrlich, Classical Charged Particles, World Scientific 2007

There are a lot of problems that arise when using point particles or infinitely thin current sheets, but these are problems with using unrealistic mathematical idealizations in order to describe charges or currents, not problems with Maxwell's equations. In this sense, classical electromagnetism is complete (within the macroscopic realm where it is valid).

Since the self-force only arises under accelerations, it is not a self-force in an absolute sense. Visualizing it as a "self-force" may even be misleading. An accelerating charge emits radiation and loses some energy in the process, just like a gun recoils when it shoots off a bullet, to satisfy conservation of momentum and energy (traveling electromagnetic waves carry both momentum and energy). So it is more of an interaction of a charge with the fields than with itself.
 
Thank you chrisbaird. How is, exactly, an electron imagined to be? Is it a charged sphere or what is its geometry? If we have to discuss about theself force then we have to assume the electron to be a spherical surface distribution of charge. But another question, doesn't the electron undergo Lorentz contraction while accelerating?
 
Boltzmann2012 said:
Does that mean the electromagnetism is not complete? Or is this outside the domain?

Yes, it does. According to relativity, all "elementary" particles must be point-like. Otherwise, as you pointed out, it would have to have "internal" degrees of freedom to account for the finite time of propagation of a deformation from one end to the other. But, point charged particles create electric fields that would contain infinite energy. This is a paradox in Classical Electrodynamics, and is addressed through Renormalization in Quantum Field Theories.
 
Boltzmann2012 said:
Is it a charged sphere or what is its geometry?
If you want a model for its "shape", the best one is probably a point. However, keep in mind that this point is not classical, it is "distributed" according to its wave function. If you want a better model, look at quantum field theory.
 
Thank you for helping to clarify. I meant that Maxwell's equations are complete on the macroscopic level. Asking "What is the shape of an electron according to classical electromagnetics?" is a nonsensical question because classical electromagnetics only describes macroscopic charges (it's like asking what is the shape of the cheese contained in rainbows). An electron is too small to be addressed by Maxwell's equations. You have to go to quantum theory to talk about elementary particles. When we talk about "point particles" in classical electromagnetic, we mean spheres of charge that are small enough compared to the rest of the system that they look like points, but big enough and containing enough charges (millions) to be considered classical.
 
To compute the self force, i assume we must take the electron to be a charged sphere.
 
  • #10
  • #11
Is this one of the reformulations of electrodynamics? Like Feynman-wheeler and bopp?
Thanks for the link and reply.

Boltzmann
 
  • #12
You may look up Wheeler-Feynman absorber theory. As for bopp, I don't know what it stands for.
 
  • #13
By Bopp I mean the field theory developed by him , which is in a way a modification of maxwell electromagnetism.It was also mentioned briefly in Feynman vol2

Can you suggest any references for an introduction to Qft?

Boltzmann.
 
  • #14
A. Zee, QFT in a nutshell
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 28 ·
Replies
28
Views
5K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
3K
  • · Replies 34 ·
2
Replies
34
Views
5K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
5K
Replies
6
Views
7K
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
7K