Shock & Awe Tactics: Exploring Baghdad "Liberation

[Adam]

Shock and Awe tactics, huh? Gosh, they certainly love the slogans over there. What that means in non-sloganeering English is: we've flattened half of Baghdad to "liberate" them. See the book if you wish.

http://www.dodccrp.org/shockIndex.html [Broken]

 

[Andre]

Some theory

Well there is some theory on this type of warfare.

The latest contribution to that after Sun Tzu, Yomini, Von Clausewitz, Fuller, etc are from John Boyd and John Warden III, both former pilots in the USAF.

John Warden's five rings hypothesis in a http://www.russfound.org/Enet/enemy_system.htm [Broken]
and John Boyd's http://www.fastcompany.com/online/59/pilot.html [Broken]

Perhaps you recognise that the operation is orchestrated exactly with using those ideas

 

[Njorl]

Fortunately the anti-war crowd never resort to catchy one-line slogans in lieu of debate.

Njorl

 

[Nicool003]

Adam we destroyed his palace his military sites his chemical weapons sites his anti air sites. "We" by the way includes your country so I don't think you should say anything. In case you were mis-informed, Australia is in hte Coalition against iraq. By the way if half of bagdad was flattened it is because the whole city is covered in military sites and memorials to saddam (that he orddered made)


And by the way if you payed attention you would see very few Iraqi's like saddam yesterday hundreds of troops surrenedered. Today thousands did.

 

[Adam]

Nicool

Bollocks. Saddam has no chemical weapons. If he did, they would have been on the missiles he launched. But they were merely high explosive warheads. And no, half of Baghdad is NOT all palaces and chemical weapons factories that somehow mysteriously remained unnoticed right under the noses of UN inspectors for ten years.

 

[Nicool003]

Adam

Bollocks. Saddam has no chemical weapons. If he did, they would have been on the missiles he launched. But they were merely high explosive warheads

Ha. "merely high explosive warheads." do you know how horrible that sounds. No let me correct that. How horrible that IS?! And there have been several missles saddam launched at Kuwait(another group/ country that is being harmed by that pitiful dictator saddam)


And for your information this is the first time IN TEN YEARS that inspectors were allowed IN Iraq! so they were only hidden for the two months that inspectors were there. And there were implications they were hidden in underground places or under homes and maasques that inspectors don't have access too.

 

[Kerrie]

all day friday on the major corporate media news stations, i heard the term "shock and awe"...i got the feeling that they wanted to be responble for setting a theme of the destruction done...personally i feel corporate media is ridiculous...

 

[kyleb]

it would have been nice if more people understood that Kerrie.

 

[Creator]

As far as I'm concerned if Saddam's face & voice is still coming across Iraqi TV and radio, then they definitely were not shocked and awed enough!

 

[Nicool003]

Bollocks. Saddam has no chemical weapons. If he did, they would have been on the missiles he launched. But they were merely high explosive warheads. And no, half of Baghdad is NOT all palaces and chemical weapons factories that somehow mysteriously remained unnoticed right under the noses of UN inspectors for ten years.

Saddam does have chemical weapons! Found them today in special chemical factories and sites. They also captured one of the generals in charge of the facility. And By the way. Those high explosive warhead missles you said he launched? You forgot to mention that they were all missles HE WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE.

 

[Creator]

Originally posted by Nicool003
Saddam does have chemical weapons! Found them today in special chemical factories and sites. They also captured one of the generals in charge of the facility. And By the way. Those high explosive warhead missles you said he launched? You forgot to mention that they were all missles HE WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE.

Good point Nicool. I wish the Saddam sympathizers would get their head out of the sand.
The problem with hiding their head in the sand is that it exposes one's ass high above one's head.

I'm sure the chemical weapons that are found will have an inscription on them saying something like: "Made in France" .

So maybe we ought to 'return' them to their rightful owner; ha, ha. I suggest we bring them to the UN building and place them on desk of the French UN Ambasssdor, you know, the one who said 'we have NO evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction'. Watching him scramble for the nearest emergency exit would make the entire war worth the effort.

Creator

 

[Adam]

You need lessons in rational discussion.

If someone presents a fact, you can not dimiss the fact by saying "well, he likes chicken curry, therefore he's wrong". In other wrds, even if I was a "Saddam Sympathiser" as you say, that alone would not negate facts.

PS: I am not a "Saddam sympathiser". That's just stupid.

 

[damgo]

The attacks on Baghdad has actually seemed surprisingly careful to me. Even the Iraqi government isn't reporting more than 3 or 4 civilian casualties in the city so far.

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by Adam
PS: I am not a "Saddam sympathiser". That's just stupid.

you are obviously a supporter of evil in general, I'll bet you worship satan himself!

 

[Creator]

Originally posted by Adam
You need lessons in rational discussion.

If someone presents a fact, you can not dimiss the fact by saying "well, he likes chicken curry, therefore he's wrong". In other wrds, even if I was a "Saddam Sympathiser" as you say, that alone would not negate facts.

PS: I am not a "Saddam sympathiser". That's just stupid.

You need a lesson in rational intelligence, Adam.

When someone presents a fact you OUGHT to be able to recognze it rather than CONTINUING to hide your head in the sand.

One more time and maybe you will get it>>>MAYBE

Fact: Chemical weapons HAVE BEEN FOUND .

If you continue to bury your head in the sand we can only conclude yes, you ARE a die hard Saddam sympathizer.

We can only conclude you are sympathizing with a mass murderer, whose sons rape women AND MEN. Maybe that appeals to YOU, but we find it abhorent.
Its amazing that you want to appease these type of people.
Nevertheless, rest assured WE won't - In spite of your criticism and lack of courage WE WILL continue to stand against these devils.

Creator

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by Creator
Fact: Chemical weapons HAVE BEEN FOUND

i haven't heard that yet, do you have link?

 

[Adam]

Creator

Please show me the evidence that chemical weapons have been found.

 

[russ_watters]

Fact: Chemical weapons HAVE BEEN FOUND .

You may be jumping the gun here a little. A chemical weapons PLANT has been found. Its not yet clear if there are actual wepons in there though. Semantics in any case.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Nicool003
Ha. "merely high explosive warheads." do you know how horrible that sounds. No let me correct that. How horrible that IS?! And there have been several missles saddam launched at Kuwait(another group/ country that is being harmed by that pitiful dictator saddam)

Hmmmm...we have more high explosives, that makes us worse, right? At what point do you tell a contry that it cannot have any capacity to defend itself?

And for your information this is the first time IN TEN YEARS that inspectors were allowed IN Iraq! so they were only hidden for the two months that inspectors were there. And there were implications they were hidden in underground places or under homes and maasques that inspectors don't have access too.

Untrue. The inspectors were pulled out in 1998 so that America could resume bombings.

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by russ_watters
You may be jumping the gun here a little. A chemical weapons PLANT has been found. Its not yet clear if there are actual wepons in there though. Semantics in any case.

actcualy a chemical plant has been found, if you automaticly consider a chemical plant one for chemical weapons then we really need to clean up this country first.

 

[Njorl]

Originally posted by Zero


Untrue. The inspectors were pulled out in 1998 so that America could resume bombings. [/B]

Inspectors were told to stop inspections by the Iraqi government. When they tried to persist, they were imprisoned in their buses or held at gunpoint and threatened with death. Those conditions were not seen as conducive to continued inspections, so they were withdrawn.

You got the year right though.

Njorl

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Njorl
Inspectors were told to stop inspections by the Iraqi government. When they tried to persist, they were imprisoned in their buses or held at gunpoint and threatened with death. Those conditions were not seen as conducive to continued inspections, so they were withdrawn.

You got the year right though.

Njorl

Odd. I seem to remember the head of teh U.N. inspection teams supporting my perception of what happened...but what would he know?

 

[Njorl]

Originally posted by Zero
Odd. I seem to remember the head of teh U.N. inspection teams supporting my perception of what happened...but what would he know?

On Oct 31 1998 Iraq declared that inspections would cease. Shortly thereafter, Richard Butler withdrew inspection teams to Bahrain. On November 11th, Bill Clinton stated that serious military repercussions would result if inspections were not allowed to continue. On Nov 14, 1998, inspectors were re-admitted. Richard Butler was supplied by US intelligence with the locatins of several sites believed to be storage facilities for proscribed materiel. On Dec 8th, UNSCOM inspectors attempted to search one of these sites. Permission was refused.

Butler withdrew the inspectors again, on Dec 14th. Four days of bombing began on the 16th. You could say that inspectors were withdrawn to allow bombing, but the truth is there were no inspections after Oct 31 of any significance. The inspectors were withdrawn because they were doing nothing.

Njorl

 

[Nicool003]

Do you think there was nothing in a chemical plant that they found? Actually I believe tehy found two... But let's just focus on one right now. There was a GENERAL from the iraqi military in charge of it. Coincidence? No. Besides more has come out about it all you have to do is watch the news and read the newspaper and go online and search. Also the facility was hidden and they are holding the general in charge of the facility now. Also I believe they DID say there were weapons in there but I could have heard wrong I suppose.


Adam if you are not a supporter of saddam what are you? You seem very anti American. No let me correc that. you ARE very anti American. Most of your topics and posts are anti american. What gives?

 

[Nicool003]

You may be jumping the gun here a little. A chemical weapons PLANT has been found

Ummm let's think a little here if it is a CHEMICAL WEAPONS PLANT then what do they make in a CHEMICAL WEAPONS PLANT?

chemical weapons. Just read my last post I don't feel like repeating anything right now.

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by kyleb
actcualy a chemical plant has been found, if you automaticly consider a chemical plant one for chemical weapons then we really need to clean up this country first.

 

[Nicool003]

What was the point of that post? you quoted yourself and posted it. It sounds just stupid and lame the second time as it did the first...

 

[Adam]

Originally posted by Nicool003

Adam if you are not a supporter of saddam what are you? You seem very anti American. No let me correc that. you ARE very anti American. Most of your topics and posts are anti american. What gives?

I quite like America in general, and its people. However, I have these dislikes:

• Politicians.
• Bureaucrats.
• Hypocrisy.
• War.
• The above four combining to kill civilians.

 

[Nicool003]

If that is true (and I know it is I take your word for it) Then you have every reason to go against Iraq instead of the U.S.

 

[Adam]

Just as I dislike the US administration and not the US people, so I dislike the Iraqi administration and not the Iraqi people.

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by Nicool003
What was the point of that post? you quoted yourself and posted it. It sounds just stupid and lame the second time as it did the first...

you don't understand that there are other chemicals besides chemical weapons do you?

 

[russ_watters]

you don't understand that there are other chemicals besides chemical weapons do you?

It is pretty easy to tell from the specific chemicals in the warehouse what the plant is for.

Ummm let's think a little here if it is a CHEMICAL WEAPONS PLANT then what do they make in a CHEMICAL WEAPONS PLANT?

Easy, buddy. I'm on your side. My point was that they didn't find any actual chemical weapons in the plant. Its hairsplitting, yes. But those hairs are ones the rest of the world is going to split.

 

[kyleb]

Originally posted by russ_watters
It is pretty easy to tell from the specific chemicals in the warehouse what the plant is for.

sure enough, but i have not heard reports of what specific chemicals were found.

 

[Nicool003]

O.K so you (Kyleb and Adam) Say there are no weapons of mass destruction and no chemical weapons? Saddam ordered his republican guard to use them at will as soon as allied forces reach the baghdad.

Also

 

[Adam]

Nicool003

1) Can you please show me the evidence that Saddam Hussein has ordered his Republican Guard to use chemical weapons?

2) Actually my personal suspicion is that Iraq has NBC weapons. However, I try to never let my own suspcions influence my actions. I must keep in mind that a suspicion is not a fact.