What lessons can we learn from the Charlie Hebdo shooting?

[lisab]

My point is that they prey on those that are helpless.

True. They shot unarmed, unsuspecting citizens - that particular act required no courage.

But they must have known their actions will bring about their own deaths, in a most violent way. Yet they did it anyway. In that way, they were...stoic. That kind of certitude is dangerous, IMO, and any time you see someone with it, it should signal you to be careful. Especially if you agree with it!

I hate what these guys did and I'm trying (soooo hard ) to see every aspect of this. I'm not very successful at it, I'm afraid.

 

[mheslep]

Are suicides stoic? The Jonestown mass suicide?

 

[OmCheeto]

More commentary that I agree with:

...
What they don’t understand, what these people who do these things don’t understand, is they will only strengthen the commitment to that freedom, and our commitment, to a civilized world.

[ref]

You can't kill an idea.

It's inspiring to see the videos of more than two million people of all religions, ages, ethnicities and backgrounds come together to march in unity.

As long as we are connected, then no attacks by extremists -- not in Nigeria, not in Pakistan, not in the Middle East and not in France -- can stand in the way of history's arc towards freedom and acceptance for all.

Commentary I don’t agree with:

Jan 2, 2013 AP
...
When terrorists use the image of Muhammad, or claim to take inspiration from Muhammad, nobody is shocked. And us, if we make innocent drawings about Muhammad, people make a fuss about it.
...

[ref]

No one is shocked when terrorists use the image, because, well, IMHO, we all consider them insane.
When you used the images, and in a politically correct way, mocked Jews, and Catholics, you insulted about 2 billion people on the planet.
While most were civilized, it only took two, to kill you.

I must say though, the French take their freedom of speech very seriously:

...
In 2012, France closed embassies and schools in 20 counties after the weekly published a series of cartoons depicting a naked Muhammad.
...

[ref]

ok to delete.

 

[drizzle]

"I'm marching but I'm conscious of the confusion and hypocrisy of the situation."

 

[256bits]

Islam has no choice but to move forward, the rest of the world will not tolerate it in the present form as an equal.

That proposed by the groups towards strict harsh fundamentalism with violence being the answer to everything - definitely not supported or admired as being sustainable for a human.

 

[Astronuc]

Survivor recalls horror of Paris hostage drama
http://news.yahoo.com/paris-hostage-drama-bad-movie-202034654.html

French authorities are looking for at least 6 others in a terrorist cell.

 

[naima]

Did you see the front page of tomorrow's Charlie Hebdo in your medias?
We read here in France that many of them refuse to publish them.
Terrorists said they wanted to revenge the prophet. In the cartoon the prophet says:
I am a Charlie, your blasphemy is forgiven!

 

[OmCheeto]

Did you see the front page of tomorrow's Charlie Hebdo in your medias?
We read here in France that many of them refuse to publish them.
Terrorists said they wanted to revenge the prophet. In the cartoon the prophet says:
I am a Charlie, your blasphemy is forgiven!

A very few of us gave up on our media, a while back.
But I read of this, this morning.

Although yesterday, I was of the "Non, je ne suis Charlie", crowd.
Today, I am.

An excerpt from a post I've been holding back:

I hate what these guys did and I'm trying (soooo hard ) to see every aspect of this. I'm not very successful at it, I'm afraid.

{poster held by a Mediterranean looking gentleman}
"I'm marching but I'm conscious of the confusion and hypocrisy of the situation."

Unless one has lived in France their whole life, I doubt any of us can comprehend the situation fully.

 

[Astronuc]

More on the victims, including policewoman Clarissa Jean-Philippe, who was unarmed and directing traffic when shot.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30724678 (Images of Ahmed Merabet and Clarissa Jean-Philippe) are 3/4 of the way down the page.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/12/world/europe/terror-attacks-in-paris-the-victims.html

 

[HossamCFD]

Did you see the front page of tomorrow's Charlie Hebdo in your medias?
We read here in France that many of them refuse to publish them.
Terrorists said they wanted to revenge the prophet. In the cartoon the prophet says:
I am a Charlie, your blasphemy is forgiven!

The BBC has surprisingly published it (scroll down to see the cartoon):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30794973

With the disclaimer:

(An image incorporating the cartoon appears lower in this article. Some people may find it offensive)

 

[Vanadium 50]

I was surprised to find out that the Attorney General was in Paris, but declined to join the march.

 

[Astronuc]

Apparently, the United States was represented by Ambassador to France Jane Hartley. I would have thought an ambassador was high level. Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were ambassadors and statesmen for the US in their days.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-criticized-for-not-appearing-at-paris-march/

 

[naima]

the problem in our democratic countries is not the lack of press freedom . We do not live in Morocco or in Algeria. Our problem is self-censorship.
When you do not publish a drawing for fear of offending the sensibility of minorities this is the victory of all these extremists. Politically Correctness may be a danger.

 

[Dotini]

Apparently, the United States was represented by Ambassador to France Jane Hartley. I would have thought an ambassador was high level. Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were ambassadors and statesmen for the US in their days.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-criticized-for-not-appearing-at-paris-march/

Actually, the US was also represented by the somewhat notorious Victoria Nuland, Assistant Secretary of State for Europe and West Asia. She did not appear in the front row.

 

[naima]

Victoria Noland did dot appear in the front row.
Nor did Jane Hartley.
They did not appear in the second row.
They did not appear in the third row...
Nobody saw them. Is there a photo to see where they were?

 

[Delta31415]

this is sad

 

[mheslep]

Apparently, the United States was represented by Ambassador to France Jane Hartley. I would have thought an ambassador was high level. Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson were ambassadors and statesmen for the US in their days.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-criticized-for-not-appearing-at-paris-march/

Franklin, Adams, or Jefferson were not campaign donors, but statesmen placed in Paris, alone, to represent the US during a desperate war.

 

[OmCheeto]

I was surprised to find out that the Attorney General was in Paris, but declined to join the march.

Me too. Though, I thought about it for a while, and decided it was not that big a deal. There was apparently a big push here in the American media which stated that Obama had shamed our entire nation by not going. My sister posted this on Facebook, and I was so appalled by the nearly universal agreement with this by her friends, that I decided to unfollow her future posts. The equivalent to the "ignore" function here at PF. It struck me that they really didn't care anything at all about what had happened in France. They just wanted to sit back, and wait, for someone to say; "Thanks Obama! You screwed up again!".

the problem in our democratic countries is not the lack of press freedom . We do not live in Morocco or in Algeria. Our problem is self-censorship.
When you do not publish a drawing for fear of offending the sensibility of minorities this is the victory of all these extremists. Politically Correctness may be a danger.

As an American, I have to disagree. We've had lots of politically incorrect sources*. But, in trying to understand where you are coming from, I did some research:

The reaction to the Charlie Hebdo attack
11 January, 2015
...
France has a tradition of satire that shocks and savages - to an extent that would not be tolerated in other so-called liberal democracies. There is nothing that justifies the murder of any journalist or cartoonist over their work, but this is a story in need of explanation.
...

Though the video is 25 minutes long, it was well worth my time.

Other commentary from around the world

If [a close friend] says a swear word against my mother, he’s going to get a punch in the nose. One cannot provoke, one cannot insult other people’s faith, one cannot make fun of faith.

[ref]

*A history of my "Politically Incorrect" sources:
All in the Family: Archie Bunker was a mean bigot, and the show taught me that bigotry was wrong.
South Park: Eric Cartman is a reincarnation of Archie Bunker. A small minded bigot, who's ignorance, we love to laugh at.
http://www.eugeneweekly.com/2007/11/29/coverstory.html: A satirical comedy where a "Mexican" makes fun of Gabachos. (a must read)
Ask a Slave: A satirical comedy where a fictional slave makes fun of American's lack of knowledge of history, and... see episode 3, fast forward to 1:39. Lizzy Mae kills it.ps. I'll probably get an infraction for this, but, what the hell.

As most people know, my father took his own life.
What I haven't shared, was, that it was on his 75th birthday, and he did it, after getting off of the phone with one of my sisters.
I can only imagine what she said to him, as we don't discuss this, as, it's somewhat politically incorrect.

I've heard, from my siblings, that after a few minutes of conversing with him, at the gate of his private estate, that he would turn, and walk away from them, shaking his head.

pps. Has anyone confirmed the fact that Charlie Hebdo's original name was "Hara-Kiri"? I read that on wiki.

 

[Czcibor]

Seriously?! Shoo out the muslims?!

I can't believe you actually said that.

People complain that when they criticize Islam they sometimes get labelled bigots. And I agree this is ridiculous. Islam is a religion and it deserves to be criticised, even ridiculed, especially when it inspires some people to behave in this way.

But electing politicians who would purge the entire muslim population off the continent?!

Well I'm glad only few europeans think this way.

Let's think for a while how everything look like from perspective of a decadent European.

We have:
1) freedom of speech
2) not oppressive states (except taxes ;) )
3) freedom of religion and no ethnic/religious purges

Sounds well, isn't it? So now we see face some terrorist attack and see that this well being is being threaten. First idea is to claim that everything is OK, and a rare terrorist attack is a minor problem, just overblown by media. (and assuming that this frequency would mostly remain so, I would keep more or less to that interpretation)

If not, that which of those rules (sometimes kept as semi-sacred) require curbing to prevent further atrocities?
"1"? To ban mockery of Islam? Does not sound excessive for me (a few already expressed their outrage about toying with this idea), but also does not solve the problem (just tiny part of it) because it seem that there are bundles of Muslim looking for slightest offence perceived or even a true one to go on rampage.
"2"? Someone on this topic already expressed here desire to bug Mosques and play plenty of honey trap operation against would be terrorist.
"3" ? Why someone may even think about it?

Let's think:
-Muslim minority is not specially well integrated (I don't mean ex. Tatars) and there is problem of pathological Muslim ghettos in ex. France.
-It seem that Europeans seem to get well with many cultures, but actually Muslim are not on the list (but culturally alien East Asians fit fine, so it should not be our xenophobia).
-There is already a pattern of petty criminals who after converting to Islam ended up as dangerous terrorist (when any other faith preaches in prison it either ends up well or as failure means no change in criminal's mind).
-For me it was highly educational to watch joyful Palestinians taking part in mass celebration after 9/11. Or later opinion pools concerning support of terrorism in other Muslim countries. We would love to believe that deal with people with the same mindset just a slightly different selection of holy days and prophets, but is unfortunately not the case.
-The way in which Arabic countries look like now is not something tempting. And there is an angst that increased Muslim population would turn European countries into something similar. Baseless paranoia? Lebanon.

Add to it usual tribalism, that "we" ="good", "other"="bad". Nationalism is weaker in Europe than it used to be. Just the new identity may not encompass whole mankind, but possibly just Western civilization.

Do you think that people who after one minor terrorist attack start to toy with some deportation idea are overreacting? In Muslim countries such attacks happen everyday and no-one makes fuss about it... Yes, it's very serious overreacting. But also a few people discovered that they really don't want to make their countries look like Muslim countries. (the problem also is that if situation really escalate, then what I said would not longer be an overreaction)

 

[naima]

Yes Hara Kiri was the name of old magazine which disappeared years ago. And Charlie Hebdo had killed writers who worked before in Hara Kiri.
To show you what could be found in Hara Kiri, let me give you an example.
In 1970 before the death of Charles de Gaulle there was a burning in a night club. when he died in the village of Colobey the front page of Hara Kiri was:
http://www.linternaute.com/homme/lo...scandale/bal-tragique-a-colombey-1-mort.shtml
(A tragic ball In Colombey, one dead !)
http://www.linternaute.com/homme/lo...scandale/bal-tragique-a-colombey-1-mort.shtml

 

[gfd43tg]

Why didn't the police officer return fire at the shooters?

 

[Astronuc]

Just some stories in the aftermath -

Charlie Hebdo: Muslim media anger at new cartoon
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30812155

Al-Qaida In Yemen Takes Responsibility For Paris Attack
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...n-yemen-takes-responsibility-for-paris-attack

US Muslim leader on Charlie Hebdo cover
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30823526

Charlie Hebdo attack: Kouachi's wife says he 'was acting normally'
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30823526

Charlie Hebdo attack: Suspected gunman 'nice and helpful'
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30734974
Cherif Kouachi's neighbour described him as a nice, helpful man.

Apparently, from outward appearances, the Kouachi brothers appeared normal, average persons. However the authorities had records on them. How did they get the weapons?

 

[Astronuc]

Franklin, Adams, or Jefferson were not campaign donors, but statesmen placed in Paris, alone, to represent the US during a desperate war.

I wasn't reflecting on the quality of individuals selected as ambassadors, but rather that the ambassador (??) was present. Since I've seen two names, I have to wonder who was present. As others have indicated, the US representative, if present, was not at the front of the line.

It's rather said that the administration feels they should have had a higher level official. They must not think much of the Ambassadors abroad.

 

[russ_watters]

They must not think much of the Ambassadors abroad.

When it took a month on a sailboat just to transmit a message to another country, ambassadors mattered more. Now, they're just managers of overseas administrative buildings.

When serious diplomacy is needed, but for some reason (risk?) the President can't go, they send...a former President, not an ambassador.

 

[lisab]

Why didn't the police officer return fire at the shooters?

I don't know the particulars of the situation, but I have heard she was a rookie.

Police are trained to deal with drivers who speed, people who drink too much, thieves, and miscreants who wreak havoc with violent crime. Dealing with hell-bent terrorists shouldn't be their job.

In any case, it's sad and horrific.

 

[256bits]

Apparently, from outward appearances, the Kouachi brothers appeared normal, average persons. However the authorities had records on them. How did they get the weapons?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.637034
Arms dealer turns himself into police.
There also was a report that he considered himself safer with the police than out in the street due to a possible retaliation against him by "terrorists".

 

[256bits]

I don't know the particulars of the situation, but I have heard she was a rookie.

Police are trained to deal with drivers who speed, people who drink too much, thieves, and miscreants who wreak havoc with violent crime. Dealing with hell-bent terrorists shouldn't be their job.

In any case, it's sad and horrific.

I would agree whole heartedly. She most likely accessed the situation, saw that she was outgunned and attempted a retreat thinking of the safety of others around and her own. I don't think that police training entails a section on "How to be a Hero." Unfortunately it did not work out for her very well, but by not confronting the individuals, she may have saved the lives innocent bystanders. In my book she is a HERO.

 

[lisab]

One thing that you can't miss in all this: the French have got their stuff together when it comes to dealing with crap like this!

Vive la France!

 

[Astronuc]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.637034
Arms dealer turns himself into police.
There also was a report that he considered himself safer with the police than out in the street due to a possible retaliation against him by "terrorists".

The Belgian/Brussels underworld!

 

[256bits]

ps. I'll probably get an infraction for this, but, what the hell.

I hope not, since it deals with the sensibilities of people, and that should be somewhat applicable, as people reasonably do weigh provocation against retaliation, and attempt a rationalization of whether or not there is some sort of balance. One can become conflicted by the rationalization.

There was the previous post about tormenting the dog, which is along the same lines as the Pope and his mother (violence again ) - ( don't poke a stick in a bear's face or pull the cats tail ) - and not expect some sort of reaction. OK. Seems reasonable enough perhaps. Perhaps not.

Is the Pope saying that religion is infallible? If so, agree with him, or disagree.

But at least, have the choice.
And have the allowable discussion expressing viewpoints and the agreement of being able to disagree.
It's a long way to perfect world.

 

[naima]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law

The pope said that they had to be beaten

 

[OmCheeto]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law

The pope said that they had to be beaten

?

Who did he say had to be beaten? I'm not finding the key words in your statement within your link. Are you referring to my quote, where he said, if someone insulted his mother, he would punch them in the nose? If so, it seems a bit of a stretch.

 

[HossamCFD]

Let's think for a while how everything look like from perspective of a decadent European.
...
Do you think that people who after one minor terrorist attack start to toy with some deportation idea are overreacting?

Yes I do. I'm aware that some people think this way, especially after an attack like this, but I think it's a very disturbing notion.

Many western muslims are abhorred and terrified by such terrorist attacks the same way you are. The difference is that they have to deal with it twice: first, just like any citizen they are terrified that it could've happened to them, feel unsafe and targeted by terrorists, and saddened by the loss of life of their fellow citizens. Second, they have to deal with people in their community who hold them responsible for such attacks, and entertain thoughts as extreme as their mass deportation.

Lumping the wider muslim community with Jihadists in the same discussion is very counter-productive. It alienates a population that's already, as you mentioned, struggling in integration. It also helps the narrative of the Jihadists by validating their claim as the representatives of the faith.

Yes, it's very serious overreacting.

Glad we agree.

But also a few people discovered that they really don't want to make their countries look like Muslim countries.

That's not a real threat. There is no imminent muslim take over of Europe.

If not, that which of those rules (sometimes kept as semi-sacred) require curbing to prevent further atrocities?

Absolutely None!
The idea that Europe has to either change its tradition regarding freedom of speech etc. to accommodate muslims or expel them altogether is an ill posed question. They both are very very bad ideas.

 

[Garth]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law

The Pope said that they had to be beaten

As OmCheeto commented above, the Pope didn't say they should be beaten up, but rather that someone could expect a punch if he ''cursed his mother'', in other words it would be a natural unthoughtful reaction.

I think the Pope was unwise to say this because it does give the (wrong) impression that he suggests violence is the correct response to insults to religion.

A response closer to the Christian gospel would be to 'turn the other cheek'. (Matthew 5:38-40).

Reaction to criticism is a normal and a healthy part of debate in a free society, however repression of criticism through terrorist acts, or indeed law in a repressive regime, is a threat to such a healthy free society, instead criticism should be countered with alternative ideas and arguments.

I think some of the cartoons in Charlie Hebdo are extremely offensive. My own response if I were French would be to not buy it. Actually before the attacks others (I think) thought the same as their sales were falling and the future of the magazine was in danger: Charlie Hebdo First Issue: Magazine Was In Financial 'Danger' Before Paris Massacre. The terrorists guaranteed the future of the satirical magazine.

Garth

 

[Bystander]

The difference is that they have to deal with it twice:

Only "Twice?" Isn't there a third threat/coercion from the terrorists to be quiet? Not rock the boat? Not object to their activities?
I don't think we in the "West" fully appreciate what "peer pressure" really is.