News What lessons can we learn from the Charlie Hebdo shooting?

[jim hardy]

Modern Islam has to completely purge this type of thinking if it wants to be integrated into Western society. Hate, violence and even war can be tolerated but the barbaric view that dissident must be eliminated by any means possible is a poison that can't be allowed in an open and free society.

Mark Twain observed on self-righteousness:

The more vehement, the less righteous.

This isn't pious righteousness
it's an excuse for cowardly knothead 'rambo wannabe' punks to pretend they're somebody.
Yeah, real brave , machine gunning office workers.
Eric Hoffer said it

When cowardice is made respectable, its followers are without number both from among the weak and the strong; it easily becomes a fashion.

If mohammed approves of these goings-on then he's earned public denigration and ridicule.

 

[nikkkom]

This isn't pious righteousness
it's an excuse for cowardly knothead 'rambo wannabe' punks to pretend they're somebody.
Yeah, real brave , machine gunning office workers.

I disagree. You might be succumbing to a subconscious desire to paint "bad guys" in the worst possible light.

They are not cowards. Yes, machinegunning office workers is not hard. But after you did that, you will be hunted down like a rat and likely killed, or thrown to jail for life. They knew that.

 

[Doug Huffman]

Paris police warned after terrorist sleeper cells activated
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/10/charlie-hebdo-attack-may-have-preceded-activation-/

French law enforcement officers have been told to erase all social media profiles and to carry their weapons at all times because terror sleeper cells have been activated within the last 24 hours, a French police source ...

LOL A weapon not carried is a poor paperweight.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/10/christiane-amanpour-calls-charlie-hebdo-terrorists/

 

[edpell]

The french police officer who was down on the ground choose not to draw his side arm instead he put his arms up as the murderer with the military rifle ran towards him. The other pictures of french police show rifles that look like they are from 1940 and of a caliber suitable for small children to learn to shoot. The french police car that blocked the murderers escape on a one lane road with metal posts to the left and the right choose to back up and let them escape rather than leaving the safety of the car and leaving it in the road to block the escape.

 

[StevieTNZ]

https://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/25940750/mi5-chiefs-warning-to-the-west/

Al Qaeda militants in Syria are plotting attacks to inflict mass casualties in the West, possibly against transport systems or "iconic targets", says the head of MI5 Security Service.

Speaking after gunmen killed 12 people in an assault on a French satirical newspaper, MI5 boss Andrew Parker warned a strike on the United Kingdom was highly likely.

 

[mheslep]

They are not cowards.

I'm not so sure. If someone places no value on their life then I don't grant courage to acts of recklessly risking it. Suicides, death cults would be general examples and I think also the Charlie assassins. To love life, loving others in it, and then to risk it - that's when the courage point counter starts ringing. IMO.

 

[nikkkom]

I'm not so sure. If someone places no value on their life then I don't grant courage to acts of recklessly risking it.

It's not a binary value. There are a lot of intermediate states between "courage" and "cowardice".

I can't see how you can possibly label someone who knowingly went into an easily avoidable gunfight as "coward". Just because we all agree that they are terrorists, they are "cowards"?

 

[Evo]

It's not a binary value. There are a lot of intermediate states between "courage" and "cowardice".

I can't see how you can possibly label someone who knowingly went into an easily avoidable gunfight as "coward". Just because we all agree that they are terrorists, they are "cowards"?

Are you actually saying that what they did was an "easily avoidable gunfight"? They are cowards, of the worst kind. They went very heavily armed into a place known to have unarmed people with the intent to kill. I just saw the interview with one of the hostages in the store. She said that the terrorist came in and immediately killed 4 people before doing or saying anything.

I don't think you are watching the same news the rest of the world is.

 

[jim hardy]

Intellectual cowardice is an unwillingness to confront logical defects in one's reasoning.

Joseph Conrad studied the terrorist mentality in his prescient "Secret Agent" 107 years ago.

I think they're cowards.

 

[russ_watters]

Are you actually saying that what they did was an "easily avoidable gunfight"?

Certainly, it was -- they chose to attack Charlie Habdo, consciously, and with forethought.

It is fine to hate them and insult them, but it is a big mistake to underestimate them.

 

[Evo]

Certainly, it was -- they chose to attack Charlie Habdo, consciously, and with forethought.

I was going to say just that. The terrorists want a fair fight? They're not cowards? Have them call the authorities and tell them where and when to meet with what guns and ammunitions and no civilians.

 

[256bits]

These terrorist are Takfiri.
Modern Islam has to completely purge this type of thinking if it wants to be integrated into Western society. Hate, violence and even war can be tolerated but the barbaric view that dissident must be eliminated by any means possible is a poison that can't be allowed in an open and free society.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Le...llah-takfiris-present-muslims-as-savages.ashx

A very good post to a very good reference ie Takfiri.
But I have to take exception with the want of "integration into western society," and the "open and free society."
That is not the goal of the terrorists groups.
The terrorist groups may enjoy your money, your wealth, your machines, but they also enjoy your fear and your confusion.

Or for the matter Islam in general - it has not a style of thinking of the separation of state from religion.
The Pharoahs of Egypt, and the Holy Roman Empire, are the usual study examples , where governance came from the power above.
In present times, it, Islam, may never achieve the permanent critical mass of support of the population(s) and leaders for such a concept (seperation of state and religion) to be discussed, predominate and become acceptable, and those areas that do find themselves more secular, encounter forces to become eventually subjugated, or in the process of, to revert back to medieval thought control and forced submission. Elimination of dissidence, sadly, is due to the reluctance of those in power to stay in power, and for those attempting to gain power.

 

[256bits]

I was going to say just that. The terrorists want a fair fight? They're not cowards? Have them call the authorities and tell them where and when to meet with what guns and ammunitions and no civilians.

A shootout at the OK Corral. As if that will ever happen.

So they are cowards. Maybe yellow bellied sap sucking ...
Monty Python throw insults over the caste wall.

Not trying to be insulting, but it really is a pointless discussion.
It hurts just as much to be shot by whomever, whatever their emotional state.

 

[nsaspook]

Or for the matter Islam in general - it has not a style of thinking of the separation of state from religion.
The Pharoahs of Egypt, and the Holy Roman Empire, are the usual study examples , where governance came from the power above.
In present times, it, Islam, may never achieve the permanent critical mass of support of the population(s) and leaders for such a concept (seperation of state and religion) to be discussed, predominate and become acceptable, and those areas that do find themselves more secular, encounter forces to become eventually subjugated, or in the process of, to revert back to medieval thought control and forced submission. Elimination of dissidence, sadly, is due to the reluctance of those in power to stay in power, and for those attempting to gain power.

Islam has no choice but to move forward, the rest of the world will not tolerate it in the present form as an equal.

 

[nikkkom]

Are you actually saying that what they did was an "easily avoidable gunfight"? They are cowards, of the worst kind.

Sure thing. They could avoid it by staying at home.

I can see a coward taking a gun and going to attack people and risk dying himself - only if alternatives are worse. This is not the case here.

They went very heavily armed into a place known to have unarmed people with the intent to kill.

If somebody kills unarmed people he is a coward? You must be using a different version of English language than me. Evil? Yes. Terrorist? Yes. Coward? No.

 

[jim hardy]

At least we agree it's "terrorism" not "workplace violence".

 

[mheslep]

At least we agree it's "terrorism" not "workplace violence".

Nor activism by "activists" as a CNN anchor described the shooters in their original report of the massacre. By contrast, a CNN talking head was quick to label the police shooting of Brown in Missouri as "murder".

 

[jim hardy]

You might be succumbing to a subconscious desire to paint "bad guys" in the worst possible light.

I thought considerably about that .

It's quite conscious.
Coddling the obstreperous weak produces narcissistic obstreperous weak people. They're dangerous.

Have you read Eric Hoffer's "True Believer" ?

There's a personality type that's attracted to fanaticism.
fromWiki:

A variety of what Hoffer terms "misfits" are also found in mass movements. Examples include "chronically bored"; the physically disabled or perpetually ill; the talentless; and criminals or "sinners". In all cases, Hoffer argues, these people feel as if their individual lives are meaningless and worthless

It's natural to blame our failures on outside forces. That makes one easy prey for organizers.

Every mass movement, he insisted, mobilizes its followers for action above all with one powerful force: Hate. It must have a devil, for every 'difficulty and failure within the movement is the work of the devil, and every success is a triumph over his evil plotting.' Ideally, the devil is a foreigner, or as we now say, the 'other.'

Mass movements are not, as the left tirelessly insists, recruited from the mass of helpless victims. On the contrary, the 'abjectly poor... stand in awe of the world around them and are not hospitable to change.' People attracted to a mass movement must be discontented yet not destitute, and they must have the feeling that by the possession of some potent doctrine, infallible leader or some new technique they have access to a source of irresistible power. They must also have an extravagant conception of the prospects and potentialities of the future.​

​

So yes, i won't ascribe any redeeming virtues to these guys.
We have to be aware of subliminal effects in ourselves from things like Faye Dunaway (sigh) portraying Bonnie Parker.

 

[DavidSnider]

There's a personality type that's attracted to fanaticism.

One of the best quotes after the Boston Marathon bombing came from the uncle of the two terrorist. He was asked "What do you think provoked this?" His answer was perfect (Skip to 1:30):

 

[Evo]

Let's stay on the topic of the Paris attacks.

 

[Doug Huffman]

Reporter: What do you think provoked it?

Tsarni: Being losers. Hatred to those who were able to settle themselves. These are the only reasons I can imagine of. Anything else, anything else to do with religion, with Islam, that’s a fraud. That’s a fake.

Tsarni: My family, it has nothing to do with that family.

Reporter: What do you think of the United States?

Tsarni: I say I teach my children and that is what I feel myself. This is the ideal micro world of the entire world. I respect this country, I love this country. This country which gives chance to everybody else to be treated as a human being, and to just to be human being, to feel yourself human being.

 

[OmCheeto]

...
It's natural to blame our failures on outside forces.
...

That reminded me of Andre's thread, which I will subtitle; "everybody needs an enemy".

If this thread ever slows down, I highly recommend reading it.

...I didn't ask any of my non-PF international facebook friends to be my friend. I went to facebook, Al Jazeera in particular, and started saying, what they apparently could not. Friendship requests started popping up from all over the world. :)

It was a very strange feeling to think that there were places on the Earth where you could be executed for speaking your mind, and was very humbled to think that I might be speaking for them.

Sometimes, I think we take our freedom for granted.
...

This may be the basis for my somewhat, if not total, indifference to the murders of people of Charlie Hebdo.

Upon further research of terrorist attacks in France since 1960, about 1 person per year has been killed by "Islamists". About the same number that have been killed by non-Islamist terrorists. (ref. add them up yourself, if you don't believe it)

 

[Astronuc]

http://news.yahoo.com/sleeper-cell-awakes-frances-worst-fears-3-days-225947759.html
Ahmed Merabet, a Muslim police officer, lay wounded and apparently unarmed on the sidewalk. He was killed by the Kouachi brothers as they left Charlie Hebdo.

Amedy Coulibaly apparently coordinated his attack on Friday with that of the Kouachi brothers. While the Kouachi brothers claim some affiliate with Al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula, Coulibaly apparently claims some allegiance to Islamic State (ISIS/Daesh).

Apparently all three were known to French authorities, but they kept a low profile, until they attacked.Meanwhile - Muslim worker at Paris kosher grocer saved customers from gunman by hiding them in walk-in freezer
http://news.yahoo.com/muslim-worker-at-kosher-grocery-store-saved-customers-from-gunman-by-hiding-them-in-walk-in-freezer-211721268.html

A Muslim employee of a kosher grocery store in Paris is being hailed as a hero for hiding several customers in a walk-in freezer to save them from a violent gunman.
Lassana Bathily, 24, led the others into the basement of his workplace, Hyper Cacher, when Amedy Coulibaly opened fire on Friday, according to French media.
. . . .

Muslim man hailed for life-saving courage during Paris siege
http://news.yahoo.com/muslim-man-hailed-life-saving-courage-during-paris-154724837.html

"The guy was so courageous," said Mohammed Amine, a 33-year-old friend and former coworker of Bathily's who spoke to him about the assault on Saturday.
. . . .
Police found four hostages dead inside the supermarket, apparently shot by Coulibaly when he entered the store.
Among them was Yohan Cohen, a 22-year-old who Amine said was "someone amazing, friendly, who likes (and) who respects people."
"I'm Muslim and he's Jewish," said Amine, an immigrant from Morocco. "But there's such respect between us. We're like brothers.
"They took my best friend."

French, foreign leaders walk arm-in-arm as millions protest Paris attacks
http://news.yahoo.com/france-foreign-leaders-march-together-show-solidarity-attacks-083446723.html

PARIS (Reuters) - World leaders including Muslim and Jewish statesmen linked arms to lead more than a million French citizens through Paris in an unprecedented march to pay tribute to victims of Islamist militant attacks.

Wife of Charlie Hebdo attacker condemns deadly strikes: lawyer
http://news.yahoo.com/wife-charlie-hebdo-attacker-condemns-deadly-strikes-lawyer-200845216.html

According to the lawyer, Cherif Kouachi's wife Izzana Hamyd said she had never seen any sign in her husband to suggest that he might undertake such terrorist activity, and described herself as "stupefied" by the attack.

 

[russ_watters]

I was going to say just that. The terrorists want a fair fight? They're not cowards?

Nobody wants fair fights outside of sports, but that has nothing to do with whether someone is a coward. That's just prudent thinking/planning.

Have them call the authorities and tell them where and when to meet with what guns and ammunitions and no civilians.

Terrorists go after civilians for impact. Killing civilians has more impact than killing police.

 

[Evo]

Nobody wants fair fights outside of sports, but that has nothing to do with whether someone is a coward. That's just prudent thinking/planning.

Terrorists go after civilians for impact. Killing civilians has more impact than killing police.

My point is that they prey on those that are helpless.

 

[lisab]

My point is that they prey on those that are helpless.

True. They shot unarmed, unsuspecting citizens - that particular act required no courage.

But they must have known their actions will bring about their own deaths, in a most violent way. Yet they did it anyway. In that way, they were...stoic. That kind of certitude is dangerous, IMO, and any time you see someone with it, it should signal you to be careful. Especially if you agree with it!

I hate what these guys did and I'm trying (soooo hard ) to see every aspect of this. I'm not very successful at it, I'm afraid.

 

[mheslep]

Are suicides stoic? The Jonestown mass suicide?

 

[OmCheeto]

More commentary that I agree with:

...
What they don’t understand, what these people who do these things don’t understand, is they will only strengthen the commitment to that freedom, and our commitment, to a civilized world.

[ref]

You can't kill an idea.

It's inspiring to see the videos of more than two million people of all religions, ages, ethnicities and backgrounds come together to march in unity.

As long as we are connected, then no attacks by extremists -- not in Nigeria, not in Pakistan, not in the Middle East and not in France -- can stand in the way of history's arc towards freedom and acceptance for all.

Commentary I don’t agree with:

Jan 2, 2013 AP
...
When terrorists use the image of Muhammad, or claim to take inspiration from Muhammad, nobody is shocked. And us, if we make innocent drawings about Muhammad, people make a fuss about it.
...

[ref]

No one is shocked when terrorists use the image, because, well, IMHO, we all consider them insane.
When you used the images, and in a politically correct way, mocked Jews, and Catholics, you insulted about 2 billion people on the planet.
While most were civilized, it only took two, to kill you.

I must say though, the French take their freedom of speech very seriously:

...
In 2012, France closed embassies and schools in 20 counties after the weekly published a series of cartoons depicting a naked Muhammad.
...

[ref]

ok to delete.

 

[drizzle]

"I'm marching but I'm conscious of the confusion and hypocrisy of the situation."

 

[256bits]

Islam has no choice but to move forward, the rest of the world will not tolerate it in the present form as an equal.

That proposed by the groups towards strict harsh fundamentalism with violence being the answer to everything - definitely not supported or admired as being sustainable for a human.