Sign mistake when computing integral with differential forms

In summary, the conversation discusses using Stokes' theorem and the generalized differential forms version to integrate a given vector field along a triangular boundary. The person has made a mistake in the integration and suspects it is due to not properly reordering the differential forms. They also mention a "fundamental correspondence" between vectors and differential forms and the use of positive and negative directions in differential forms. They ask for an intuitive explanation for this convention and how to know which form is needed.
  • #1
beefbrisket
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The question provides the vector field [itex](xy, 2yz, 3zx)[/itex] and asks me to confirm Stokes' theorem (the vector calc version) but I am trying to use the generalized differential forms version. So, I am trying to integrate [itex]\omega = xy\,dx + 2yz\,dy + 3zx\,dz[/itex] along the following triangular boundary [itex]\partial \Sigma[/itex]:

KNFOdZ9.png


First, I try to find [itex]\int_\Sigma d\omega[/itex]. I computed [itex]d\omega = x\,dy\,dx + 2y\,dz\,dy + 3z\,dx\,dz[/itex] which simplifies to [itex]2y\,dz\,dy[/itex] on [itex]\Sigma[/itex]. However, integrating over the appropriate domain of [itex]y,z[/itex] with that differential gives 8/3 when the answer should be -8/3. I suspect my mistake is in not first reordering [itex]2y\,dz\,dy[/itex] to [itex]-2y\,dy\,dz[/itex] before integrating, but I'm not clear on the rational behind doing so. I am missing some intuition on what [itex]2y\,dz\,dy[/itex] and [itex]-2y\,dy\,dz[/itex] "are." In any case, where have I gone wrong?
 

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  • #2
Could be from differential forms convention ie ##dxdy## , ##dydz## , and ##dzdx## are in the positive direction but ##dydx## , ##dzdy## , and ##dxdz## are in the negative direction.

##dxdy = -dydx## , ##dydz = -dzdy## and ##dzdx = -dxdz##
 
  • #3
jedishrfu said:
Could be from differential forms convention ie ##dxdy## , ##dydz## , and ##dzdx## are in the positive direction but ##dydx## , ##dzdy## , and ##dxdz## are in the negative direction.

##dxdy = -dydx## , ##dydz = -dzdy## and ##dzdx = -dxdz##

In one of Weintraub's intro texts on differential forms he introduces the "fundamental correspondence" between vectors and differential forms in R^3 (haven't been able to find any other sources using this name) and for the correspondence between vectors and 2-forms he indeed uses that ordering. Is there some intuitive explanation for why it is so? I imagine sometimes we would need to use the negative directions too, any idea how I would know which is the form I am after?
 
  • #4
There's a vector convention for surfaces as shown in this wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curl_(mathematics)

Counterclockwise ie righthand rule where fingers curl and point in the direction of integration and the thumb points in the direction of the normal to the surface considered the positive direction.

You can see it more clearly in the wedge product ie ##dx \wedge dy## which is anticommutative by definition.

Differential forms was a cleaner way of handling vector analysis. (my guess)
 
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1. What causes a sign mistake when computing an integral with differential forms?

An incorrect orientation of the boundary can cause a sign mistake when computing an integral with differential forms. This is because the orientation determines the direction in which the boundary is traversed, which affects the signs of the terms in the integral.

2. How can I avoid making a sign mistake when computing an integral with differential forms?

To avoid making a sign mistake, make sure to correctly orient the boundary and to use the correct sign conventions for the differential forms being integrated. Double-checking your work and consulting with others can also help catch any potential sign mistakes.

3. Can a sign mistake affect the accuracy of my computation?

Yes, a sign mistake can greatly affect the accuracy of your computation. In some cases, it can result in a completely incorrect answer. It is important to carefully check for sign mistakes and correct them to ensure accurate results.

4. Are there any tools or techniques to help with computing integrals with differential forms?

Yes, there are several tools and techniques that can help with computing integrals with differential forms. One common approach is to use differential form calculators or software programs, which can handle the sign conventions and orientations automatically. Other techniques include breaking down the integral into smaller parts and using visual aids such as diagrams.

5. Can a sign mistake in one part of the computation affect the rest of the calculation?

Yes, a sign mistake in one part of the computation can affect the rest of the calculation. This is because the incorrect sign will carry through the subsequent steps of the computation, resulting in an overall incorrect answer. It is important to check for sign mistakes throughout the entire process of computing an integral with differential forms.

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