Small question about maxwell's equation curl of H

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    Curl Maxwell's equation
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the application of Maxwell's equations, specifically the curl of the magnetic field H and its relation to bound surface currents (KB) and magnetization (M). Participants explore the mathematical treatment of these concepts within the context of electromagnetic theory.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the absence of the contribution of bound surface currents (KB) to the magnetic field B in the context of Maxwell's equations.
  • Another participant clarifies that KB refers to bound surface currents on magnetized materials and suggests incorporating it into the equations using a Dirac delta function.
  • A different participant discusses the evaluation of the curl of M, noting that surface currents arise from discontinuities at boundaries, leading to a surface current density defined by the cross product of M and the normal vector.
  • Further elaboration is provided on the derivation of the equation relating B, H, and M, indicating that this derivation is often omitted in textbooks.
  • One participant draws an analogy to electrostatics, discussing the relationship between polarization charge density and the divergence of the electric displacement field D, suggesting parallels in the treatment of magnetic fields.
  • Another participant introduces a "pole" model of magnetostatics, which treats magnetic poles similarly to electric charges and notes that both the pole model and the conventional approach yield the same results for the magnetic field B.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying interpretations of how bound surface currents contribute to magnetic fields, with no consensus reached on the best approach to incorporate these contributions into Maxwell's equations. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the treatment of these concepts.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference mathematical techniques and analogies to electrostatics, indicating that the discussion may involve complex derivations and assumptions that are not fully explored in the thread.

Tom 4 billion tom
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The first page of this short pdf from MIT sums the starting point to formulate my question:
https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/physics/8-022-physics-ii-electricity-and-magnetism-fall-2006/lecture-notes/lecture29.pdf

We can see that
∇xH = Jfree
and
∇xB o (Jfree +∇xM)
∇xB o (Jfree +JB)

And now my question is, if KB ≠ 0 , how I can't see its contribution to B in the last equation?
I have been solving problems in class and in them it appears a contribution to B , after using the curl theorem, like this
∫KB·dl

Thanks for your time
 
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I assume that by ##\vec K_B## you mean the bound surface currents on a magnetized material. These are a subset of the bound current density ##\vec J_B##, namely the bound currents that lie on the surface of the material (idealized as an infinitesimally thin sheet) rather than being distributed through the volume of its interior.

Mathematically I think you might incorporate ##\vec K_B## into the last equation by multiplying it by a Dirac delta function that represents the surface, thereby converting it to a volume current density.
 
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The evaluation of ## \nabla \times \vec{M} ## includes surface currents, and, as by Stokes theorem, the discontinuity in ## \vec{M} ## at the boundary results in a surface current per unit length ## \vec{K}_m=\vec{M} \times \hat{n} ##, that comes from ## \nabla \times \vec{M}=\vec{J}_m ##. ## \\ ## Basically, this derivation, (of ## \nabla \times \vec{H}=\vec{J}_{free} ##), starts with ## \vec{B}=\mu_o (\vec{H}+\vec{M}) ##, and you take the curl of both sides. The derivation of the equation ## \vec{B}=\mu_o (\vec{H}+\vec{M}) ## can be somewhat lengthy, and the derivation is often omitted in many E&M textbooks. They like to use the analogous electrostatic equation ## \vec{D}=\epsilon_o \vec{E} +\vec{P} ##, to justify it.
 
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Thank's both, and sorry for replying late. I thing I understood the general idea of your replies but for the moment I am going to look up in the bibliography the said discontinuity at the boundary.
 
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You will see a similar thing in electrostatics with ## -\nabla \cdot \vec{P}=\rho_p ##, and ## \nabla \cdot {E}=\frac{\rho_{total}}{\epsilon_o} ##, where ## \rho_{total}=\rho_{free}+\rho_p ## The equation ## \nabla \cdot \vec{D}=\rho_{free} ## is a result of using the definition ## \vec{D}=\epsilon_o \vec{E}+\vec{P} ##. Upon taking the divergence of both sides of the equation, the result ## \nabla \cdot \vec{D}=\rho_{free} ## follows. There is a surface polarization charge density ## \sigma_p=\vec{P} \cdot \hat{n} ##, but this is all part of ## -\nabla \cdot {P}=\rho_p ## by applying Gauss' law to the discontinuity in ## \vec{P} ##. ## \\ ## And it may also interest you that there is a "pole" model of magnetostatics, analogous to the electrostatic "pole" method, that works with magnetic "pole" density ## \rho_m=-\nabla \cdot \vec{M} ##, where the magnetic "poles" are sources of ## \vec{H} ## using the inverse square law, and magnetic surface currents ## \vec{K}_m ## are ignored. The "pole" method also uses the equation ## \vec{B}=\mu_o (\vec{H}+\vec{M} ) ##. Very surprisingly, both methods get the exact same answer for the magnetic field ## \vec{B} ##. In this "pole" model, free currents in conductors are also considered to be sources of ## \vec{H} ##, with the ## \vec{H} ## determined by a Biot-Savart type equation, but with ## \vec{H}=\frac{\vec{B}}{\mu_o} ##.
 
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