Solar drive / neutron atmosphere

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of whether the Sun, as a fusion reactor, has an "atmosphere" of free neutrons and the implications of this for potential spacecraft propulsion using neutron interactions. Participants explore the nature of fusion processes in the Sun and their byproducts, particularly focusing on neutron generation and its feasibility for energy extraction.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that if the Sun is a fusion reactor, it should have an "atmosphere" of neutrons that could be utilized for propulsion with suitable fuels like boron or uranium.
  • Another participant explains that the Sun's primary energy generation method, Proton-Proton fusion, does not produce free neutrons, as the fusion processes result in helium and other products without releasing neutrons into the surrounding environment.
  • A different participant acknowledges that while some neutrons may be generated in side reactions, the Sun's core acts as a shield, preventing free neutrons from reaching the surface due to their rapid consumption in nuclear processes.
  • One participant corrects the neutron half-life value mentioned in the discussion, clarifying that the free neutron half-life is approximately 10.2 minutes, while another participant confirms this correction and reflects on their previous misunderstanding.
  • Another participant humorously notes the challenges posed by side reactions in fusion processes, indicating a shared understanding of the complexities involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the existence of free neutrons in the Sun and their potential for propulsion applications. While some participants clarify aspects of neutron generation and decay, no consensus is reached regarding the initial proposition of a neutron atmosphere.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in understanding the neutron dynamics within the Sun, including the dependence on specific fusion processes and the shielding effects of the Sun's structure. The nuances of neutron behavior and decay are also acknowledged but remain unresolved.

synch
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I am wondering, if the sun is a fusion reactor, it should have an "atmosphere" of neutrons ?
So presumably a craft with suitable fuel eg boron or uranium, in a close pass, would be able to use that to react with the fuel in a suitable drive ? Probably not good for humans - (!) but for an unmanned bulk carrier, it could produce a useful boost maybe... just an idea.
 
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synch said:
I am wondering, if the sun is a fusion reactor, it should have an "atmosphere" of neutrons ?

The Sun's primary method of energy generation is Proton-Proton fusion. This reaction chain builds up helium by fusing together a total of 4 protons. During the first reaction in the chain, two protons collide, one is converted into a neutron, and the two fuse together under the strong nuclear force. This creates a deuterium nucleus. Another free proton collides with this deuterium and the two fuse, creating Helium-3. Another three protons combine in the same manner to form another Helium-3 nucleus, and then the two nuclei collide and fuse. Two out of these remaining four protons are ejected during this process, leaving two protons and two neutrons fused together, aka Helium-4. No free neutrons are created during this process.

The other energy generation process is the CNO cycle. The cycle is more complicated than the P-P chain, but no free neutrons are generated during it either.

See the following links for more info.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNO_cycle

Long story short, the Sun doesn't have an atmosphere of free neutrons.
 
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synch said:
I am wondering, if the sun is a fusion reactor, it should have an "atmosphere" of neutrons ?

You're correct, protium fusion does generate some neutrons, especially in side reactions like between deuterium nuclei. However, the sun's fusion reactions take place in its core, which is only 20-25% of its radius. That leaves the rest of the sun's bulk (75-80% of its radius and 65% of its mass) to act as shielding. The sun's self-shielding is so effective that it takes even photon energy about 10,000 to 170,000 years to transfer to the surface, while neutrons are almost immediately used in core nuclear processes. If a free neutron manages to avoid being caught up in nuclear reactions, it has a half-life of 15 minutes before it turns into a proton. (Neutrons are surprisingly unstable outside of nuclei.)

In short, those core neutrons will never reach the surface.

It's also pretty easy to stimulate neutron release in a quantity of uranium suited for nuclear propulsion, and the means of doing so (e.g., a critical mass with adjustable control rods or neutron reflectors) give fine control over the nuclear processes and provide a safety mechanism. Depending on an outside, variable, even random neutron flux is tickling the dragon's tail - begging for trouble.

But it's a good leap of imagination to put those facts together.
 
Minor nitpick-- the free neutron half-life is 10.2 minutes. The 15 minutes is the mean lifetime, which is a bit longer than the time it takes 1/2 of the neutrons to decay.
 
Ken G said:
Minor nitpick-- the free neutron half-life is 10.2 minutes. The 15 minutes is the mean lifetime, which is a bit longer than the time it takes 1/2 of the neutrons to decay.

Heh, I remembered 12.5 minutes but it'd been years since I used the value so I double checked with the source of all the interwebs knowledge, Wikipedia, and saw 881.5 seconds for, yep, mean lifetime. I had "half-life" on the brain and wrote that instead. Thank you for pointing that out or I'd still be spouting "15 minutes half-life" years from now.
 
cray said:
You're correct, protium fusion does generate some neutrons, especially in side reactions like between deuterium nuclei.

Those pesky side reactions! ?:)
 

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