Solid mechanics challenge question

AI Thread Summary
The discussion revolves around a solid mechanics challenge involving the stress tensor components of a cylindrical tank under internal and external pressures. Participants are trying to derive the stress tensor equations, relate them to shear stress, and understand the implications of boundary conditions on the stress values. There is confusion regarding the signs of pressures, the validity of thin-walled assumptions, and the transformation of stress tensors from cylindrical to Cartesian coordinates. The conversation highlights the complexity of calculating maximum pressure before failure and emphasizes the need for clarity in mathematical expressions and physical interpretations. The thread reflects a collaborative effort to solve a challenging problem in solid mechanics.
dislect
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Hi all! Good evening

Here is the Question:

4dn45cnudgom.jpg


This question is given as a challenge extra credit task, and is a part of a course called solid mechanics 2 that deals more with shear strain and strain matrices.
While trying to translate the question I used the term "strength" instead of "strain" by mistake :)
I don't really have a lead how to begin, I would really appreciate if someone could guide me or write me some guidelines on how to find the constants and the max pressure

Thanks in advance and a good day to all :shy:
 
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Can you relate the stress tensor components to the known pressure on the inside and the outside of the tank? Can you also relate these components to the shear stress on the weld?
 
I know that the stress tensor components for a cylinder under internal pressure 10P are:

\sigma_{rr}=-10P,\sigma_{\theta\theta}=\frac{10PR}{R},\sigma_{zz}=\frac{10PR}{2R}
but I am confused as to how to refer to the external pressure?
about the shear stress, not so much :) i think that first we need to create the stress tensor for a cut shown on the right picture and then use a transformation matrice to move it by 30 degrees?
 
Isn't the outside pressure P? What happens when you plug those two boundary conditions into \sigma_\mathrm{rr}?

I agree with the transformation strategy to find the shear stress along with weld.
 
I just get -9P (by the way am i right about the minus sign)? and the outside pressure dosent affect the other components?
 
What do you get for a and b when you plug in a compressive stress of P when r corresponds to the outer surface, and a compressive stress of 10P when r corresponds to the inner surface?
 
you mean

while r<R (inner surface):

\sigma_{\theta\theta}=10P=a-\frac{b}{r/R^{2}},\sigma_{rr}=-10P=a+\frac{b}{r/R^{2}}
for r=R we get that a= 0 b= -10P

while r>2R (outside surface):

\sigma_{\theta\theta}=P=a-\frac{b}{r/R^{2}},\sigma_{rr}=-P=a+\frac{b}{r/R^{2}}
for r=2R we get that a= 0 b= -4P

im sure i got it wrong though.. and what about what happens between R to 2R

it all seems a bit odd because the formulas for the stress tensor components relay on a Thin-Walled Pressure Vessel and here its not that thin because t=R. We usually get that \sigma_{rr}&lt;&lt;\sigma_{\theta\theta but not here so are the formulas still valid?
 
I'm not sure why you're using \sigma_{\theta\theta}; the pressures act radially. Also, a and b are the same constants throughout the problem.

These equations don't rely on the thin-wall assumption; if that were the case, the stresses would be constant.
 
right.. second try:

r=R
\sigma_{rr}=-10P=a+\frac{b}{(R/R)^{2}}\rightarrow a+b=-10P
r=2R
\sigma_{rr}=P=a+\frac{b}{(2R/R)^{2}}\rightarrow 4a+b=4P

a=3P, b=-13P or am i wrong about the signs of the pressures (+ / -) ?
 
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  • #10
\sigma_\mathrm{rr}=10P is saying that the material is under tensile stress on the inner surface. This doesn't make much sense.
 
  • #11
yeah i fixed that when i wrote the equation a+b=-10P and forget to correct it at the beginning. so these are the constants?
now i need to write the transformation matrice?

by the way, dosent the "attachments" (dont know the right word for it in english) at the bottom of the cylinder affect the pressure in some way? (what we see marked as a triangles)
 
  • #12
In your question, what is called external radius = 4R is at variance with the figure, where 4R is the external diameter
 
  • #13
pongo i don't understand.. can you show me using the equations i wrote? the language gaps make it a bit difficult in a subject that is already hard for me to understand in my mother language :)

and btw, can i say that the shear strain is 0 at all components?
 
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  • #14
\sigma_\mathrm{rr}=P or -P at r=2R?

Agreed that there is no shear stress.
 
  • #15
i think that P at 2R and its what i used on the second equation *fingers crossed*

So in a cylindrical coordinate system i get:
\sigma=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> 3P-\frac{-13P}{(r/R)^{2}} &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 3P+\frac{-13P}{(r/R)^{2}} &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 2P \end{pmatrix}

Given that my matrix is correct I'm going to save some time and start working on the transformation. Now since we are currently looking at a cylindrical coordinate system I think need to translate it to a cartesian system in order to move it by 30 degrees so:
x=r\cdot cos(\theta), y=r\cdot sin(\theta) but I am unsure on how to apply the conversion in a tensor. Is the following conversion correct?

\begin{pmatrix}<br /> \sigma_{xx} &amp; \sigma_{xy} &amp; \sigma_{xz} \\ \sigma_{yx} &amp; \sigma_{yy} &amp; \sigma_{yz} \\ \sigma_{zx} &amp; \sigma_{zy} &amp; \sigma_{zz}\end{pmatrix}=\begin{pmatrix}cos(\theta) &amp; -sin(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ sin(\theta) &amp; cos(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ 0 &amp; 0 &amp;1\end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix}\sigma_{rr} &amp; \sigma_{r\theta} &amp; \sigma_{rz} \\ \sigma_{\theta r} &amp; \sigma_{\theta\theta} &amp; \sigma_{\theta z} \\ \sigma_{zr} &amp; \sigma_{z\theta} &amp; \sigma_{zz}\end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix}cos(\theta) &amp; sin(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ -sin(\theta) &amp; cos(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ 0 &amp; 0 &amp;1\end{pmatrix}

and later on the transformation matrix A to move the axis e2,e3 is:

A=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> 1 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; \frac{1}{2} &amp; \frac{\sqrt{3}}{2} \\<br /> 0 &amp; -\frac{\sqrt{3}}{2} &amp; \frac{1}{2} \end{pmatrix}

How am I doing so far? :~)
 
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  • #16
I'm still not seeing how you're setting the stress at the outer surface to be a positive value P, which represents a tensile stress. The outer surface is under compression.

Once you get this straightened out, try expressing the wall stress in terms of the rectangular coordinate system, apply the transformation, and check whether your answer makes sense.
 
  • #17
But I did set it as possitive on the outside, its written in the second equation here below when r=2R:

dislect said:
right.. second try:

r=R
\sigma_{rr}=-10P=a+\frac{b}{(R/R)^{2}}\rightarrow a+b=-10P
r=2R
\sigma_{rr}=P=a+\frac{b}{(2R/R)^{2}}\rightarrow 4a+b=4P

a=3P, b=-13P or am i wrong about the signs of the pressures (+ / -) ?

I'm not familiar with the term "wall stress", isn't moving to a rectangular coordinate system is what I just wrote in the last reply?
 
  • #18
ok correction, a=13P/4 and b=-44P/3 I solved it wrong somehow..
now I figured I could mark a vector \hat{n} facing out in a 90degree angle from line AB (which marks the direction of the normal) and a vector \hat{s} parallel to line AB (which marks the shear direction). Now since I found constants a,b and the shear strains \sigma_{\theta z},\sigma_{rz},\sigma_{\theta r} and so are equal to 0 I have the strain matrix \sigma_{\theta rz} in a cylindrical coordinate system.
Can I multiply \sigma_{\theta rz}\cdot \hat{n} \cdot \hat{s} to find the size of the shear strain on line AB? I connect that strain to what they marked as failure strain \sigma_{0} by saying that \sigma_{\theta rz}\cdot \hat{n} \cdot \hat{s} &lt; \sigma_{0} and then I isolate the pressure P?

thanks for your help!
 
  • #19
dislect said:
ok correction, a=13P/4 and b=-44P/3 I solved it wrong somehow..

But plugging in these values gives \sigma_\mathrm{rr}=-11.4P at r=R and \sigma_\mathrm{rr}=-0.4P at r=2R...
 
  • #20
I seriously don't know what's wrong with me these days..
a=14p/3 b=-44p/3

whats about the other stuff I wrote? :)
 
  • #21
Hi there, I was just looking for problems with cylindrical coordinates for practice, and I found this one, so I'll join in, I hope you don't mind.
Dislect, in section c, were you asked to find the angle of the initial failure or is it the distance r? BTW if you have other solved examples or if you know where can I find them, I'll be forever grateful :), Thanks.
 
  • #22
The more the merrier!
I'm not sure what you just asked.. but the 30degree angle is given data. I need to find the max pressure P value before the welding starts to break but I'm not sure how to do it. I could probably find some cylindrical coordinates problems but its all in hebrew :)
 
  • #23
The first failure will occur on the plane AB at the point of the maximum shear stress. Since this plane isn't symmetric about the Z axis, the maximum stress will be only for 2 specific angles, which I think we need to find in section c.

Hebrew wouldn't be very efficient for me lol... English or Russian would be better. Thanks anyway :)
 
  • #24
the failure will accure somewhere in the AB plane, i don't see how the angles you are talking about get in. As I see it, the failure is suppose to occur either in point A, B or in the middle.

as to finding max pressure did you try solving that part? what result did you get?
 
  • #25
dislect said:
I seriously don't know what's wrong with me these days..
a=14p/3 b=-44p/3

This gives \sigma_\mathrm{rr}=P at r=2R, but \sigma_\mathrm{rr}=-P there (a compressive load).

After this is cleared up, you can write the stress tensor in terms of the \bold{e_1}, \bold{e_2}, \bold{e_3} coordinate system and perform the stress transformation.
 
  • #26
you mean the pressures are -10p and -p? then i get that a=2p, b=-12p and hopefully that's it for these two equations :)

So in a cylindrical coordinate system i get:
\sigma=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> 2P-\frac{-12P}{(r/R)^{2}} &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 2P+\frac{-12P}{(r/R)^{2}} &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 2P \end{pmatrix}

I hope i get the conversion to e1,e2,e3 right please correct me if i dont:
\begin{pmatrix}<br /> \sigma_{xx} &amp; \sigma_{xy} &amp; \sigma_{xz} \\ \sigma_{yx} &amp; \sigma_{yy} &amp; \sigma_{yz} \\ \sigma_{zx} &amp; \sigma_{zy} &amp; \sigma_{zz}\end{pmatrix}=\begin{pmatrix}cos(\theta) &amp; -sin(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ sin(\theta) &amp; cos(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ 0 &amp; 0 &amp;1\end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix}\sigma_{rr} &amp; \sigma_{r\theta} &amp; \sigma_{rz} \\ \sigma_{\theta r} &amp; \sigma_{\theta\theta} &amp; \sigma_{\theta z} \\ \sigma_{zr} &amp; \sigma_{z\theta} &amp; \sigma_{zz}\end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix}cos(\theta) &amp; sin(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ -sin(\theta) &amp; cos(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ 0 &amp; 0 &amp;1\end{pmatrix}
so:
\begin{pmatrix}\sigma_{xx} &amp; \sigma_{xy} &amp; \sigma_{xz} \\ \sigma_{yx} &amp; \sigma_{yy} &amp; \sigma_{yz} \\ \sigma_{zx} &amp; \sigma_{zy} &amp; \sigma_{zz}\end{pmatrix}=\begin{pmatrix}cos(30) &amp; -sin(30) &amp; 0 \\ sin(30) &amp; cos(30) &amp; 0 \\ 0 &amp; 0 &amp;1\end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix}2P-\frac{12P}{(r/R)^{2}} &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\ \0 &amp; 2P+\frac{12P}{(r/R)^{2}} &amp; 0 \\ 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 2P\end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix}cos(30) &amp; sin(30) &amp; 0 \\ -sin(30) &amp; cos(30) &amp; 0 \\ 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 1\end{pmatrix}
which result in:
iyqmytm0ldhj.jpg

is that how i convert cylindrical coordinates to x,y,z moved by 30degrees?
 
  • #27
(1) Check the \sigma_\mathrm{rr} and \sigma_{\theta\theta} values in your first matrix.

(2) Check which axis you're rotating around. The stress value for that axis will be unchanged after the stress transformation.
 
  • #28
correction:
cylindrical coordinate system:
\sigma=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> 2P-\frac{44P}{3(r/R)^{2}} &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 2P+\frac{-44P}{3(r/R)^{2}} &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 2P \end{pmatrix}

I'm rotatin around e_1 or \hat{r} so the value \sigma_{rr}=2P-\frac{44P}{3(r/R)^{2}} is suppose to remain the same as \sigma_{xx}?
then the matrix i am multiplying on both sides is changed to what?

\begin{pmatrix}1 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\ 0 &amp; cos(\theta) &amp; sin(\theta) \\ 0 &amp; -sin(\theta) &amp;cos(\theta)\end{pmatrix}

its just some sort of a formula i found on the internet, i don't really undertstand this transformation because no one knows/explains me how to change cylindrical coordinates to cartesian!
i know how to move a cartesian coordinate system by 30degrees, but i didnt find anything explaining how to move cylindrical to cartesian.
 
  • #29
Back to 44/3?
 
  • #30
once and for all,
a=2p
b=-12p ..

\sigma=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> 2P-\frac{12P}{(r/R)^{2}} &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 2P+\frac{12P}{(r/R)^{2}} &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 2P \end{pmatrix}

anyway.. its the conversion I am worried about i would have corrected and solved it from the beginning.
 
  • #31
I just don't get why you're not proofreading your equations before you post them, or checking to see whether the values make physical sense. You're asking for comments on your work, but I can't tell which errors are simply typos vs. which indicate conceptual problems.

Once you have the stress in the wall written in terms of the rectangular coordinate system \bold{e_1}, \bold{e_2}, \bold{e_3}, there are several methods for doing a stress transformation. Once is using a direction cosine matrix \bold{a} like the one you wrote, and calculating the new stress \bold{\sigma^\prime}=\bold{a\sigma a^\mathrm{T}}. Another is using Mohr's circle to do it graphically or by equation.
 
  • #32
thats the thing, its now written in cylindrical r,theta,z coordinates and not in rectangular. I don't know how to change it to rectangular!
 
  • #33
The trick here is to pick one angle on the structure, look at which directions the cylindrical axes point, and match these up to the rectangular axes. For example, let's work with the point midway between A and B. The radial axis \bold{r} is collinear with \bold{e_1}, so \sigma_\mathrm{rr}=\sigma_{11} at this point. Does this make sense?
 
  • #34
yes. and e_3=e_z but what about e_2? you can also say that its the same direction as r on two locations..
 
  • #35
So let's only work with a single point. (Any point along the weld is equivalent, right?)
 
  • #36
sorry i don't understand..
 
  • #37
At the top of the cylinder, the radial direction is also the \bold{e_2} direction. At the side of the cylinder, the radial direction is also the \bold{e_1} direction. So you have to commit to a single point before you begin to do the stress transformation part of the problem; otherwise, the axes will be coupled in an ambiguous way. I'm suggesting you pick a point at the weld and on the side of the cylinder closest to the viewer. Does this help clarify?
 
  • #38
alexferdin said:
so on any point on the e1e2 plane the stress is \sigmarr and \sigma11=\sigma22=\sigmarr?

No, I wouldn't say that. Rather, we have \sigma_{11}=\sigma_\mathrm{rr}\cos^2\theta+\sigma_{\theta\theta}\sin^2\theta within the tank material, where \theta is measured from \bold{e_1}.
 
  • #39
will be edited later *
 
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  • #40
I'm going to start from the beginning now the make sure its all allright

1. finding the constants:
\sigma_{rr}(r=R)=a+b=-10P, \sigma_{rr}(r=2R)=4a+b=-4P
we comapre these exprassions to \ -10P,-P and not to \+10P,-P because the sign (-) says that the tank is under compression from the inner and outer surface?
This gives us a=2P, b=-12P

2.a The stress tensor in cylindrical coordinates (r,\theta,z):
\sigma_{(r,\theta,z)}=\begin{pmatrix}<br /> 2P-\frac{12P}{(r/R)^{2}} &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 2P+\frac{12P}{(r/R)^{2}} &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 2P \end{pmatrix}

2.b Switching from cylindrical coordinates (r,\theta,z) to cartesian (x,y,z), z remains the same:

R - transform matrix from cylinder to cartesian

\sigma_{(x,y,z)}=R^{T}\cdot \sigma_{(r,\theta,z)}\cdot R,
R=\begin{pmatrix}cos(\theta) &amp; -sin(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ sin(\theta) &amp; cos(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ 0 &amp; 0 &amp;1\end{pmatrix}

\sigma_{(x,y,z)}=\begin{pmatrix}\sigma_{xx} &amp; \sigma_{xy} &amp; \sigma_{xz} \\ \sigma_{yx} &amp; \sigma_{yy} &amp; \sigma_{yz} \\ \sigma_{zx} &amp; \sigma_{zy} &amp; \sigma_{zz}\end{pmatrix}=\begin{pmatrix}cos(\theta) &amp; sin(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ -sin(\theta) &amp; cos(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ 0 &amp; 0 &amp;1\end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix}\sigma_{rr} &amp; \sigma_{r\theta} &amp; \sigma_{rz} \\ \sigma_{\theta r} &amp; \sigma_{\theta\theta} &amp; \sigma_{\theta z} \\ \sigma_{zr} &amp; \sigma_{z\theta} &amp; \sigma_{zz}\end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix}cos(\theta) &amp; -sin(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ sin(\theta) &amp; cos(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ 0 &amp; 0 &amp;1\end{pmatrix}=
=\begin{pmatrix}cos(\theta) &amp; sin(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ -sin(\theta) &amp; cos(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ 0 &amp; 0 &amp;1\end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix}2P-\frac{12P}{(r/R)^{2}} &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\ 0 &amp; 2P+\frac{12P}{(r/R)^{2}} &amp; 0 \\ 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 2P \end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix}cos(\theta) &amp; -sin(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ sin(\theta) &amp; cos(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ 0 &amp; 0 &amp;1\end{pmatrix}

2.c Transforming the cartesian coordinate system by 30 degrees - \sigma&#039;:

A - transformation matrix in the cartesian coordinate system by 30degrees

\sigma&#039;_{(x,y,z)}=A^{T}\cdot \sigma_{(x,y,z)}\cdot A=A^{T}R^{T}\sigma_{(r,\theta,z)}RA,
A=\begin{pmatrix}1 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\0 &amp; cos(60) &amp; sin(60) \\0 &amp; -sin(60) &amp; cos(60) \end{pmatrix}

The stress wall on AB is then:
\sigma&#039;_{(x,y,z)}= \begin{pmatrix}<br /> 1 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; cos(60) &amp; -sin(60) \\<br /> 0 &amp; sin(60) &amp; cos(60) \end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix}cos(\theta) &amp; sin(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ -sin(\theta) &amp; cos(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ 0 &amp; 0 &amp;1\end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix}2P-\frac{12P}{(r/R)^{2}} &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\ 0 &amp; 2P+\frac{12P}{(r/R)^{2}} &amp; 0 \\ 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 2P \end{pmatrix}\begin{pmatrix}cos(\theta) &amp; -sin(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ sin(\theta) &amp; cos(\theta) &amp; 0 \\ 0 &amp; 0 &amp;1\end{pmatrix} \begin{pmatrix}<br /> 1 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 \\<br /> 0 &amp; cos(60) &amp; sin(60) \\<br /> 0 &amp; -sin(60) &amp; cos(60) \end{pmatrix}

I'm waiting with the multiplication to see if you think I wrote it correctly this far, if so I can find the shear stress on AB by using the following connection:
\sigma_{ns}=s_i \cdot \sigma_{ij} \cdot n_i when \hat{s} and \hat{n} are unit vectors pointing in the direction of the shear and normal stress.
 
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  • #41
Mapes can you please evaluate my work?
I'm guessing I complicated things but its because I just don't understand the clues you gave me. I am stuck in the same place for almost a week and I'm just about the quit the all thing..
All I want is to understand in the clearest way how to change to cartesian coordinates and if after that change I am still suppose to have components in my tensor that depend on r or theta ?
 
  • #42
This approach looks fine.
 
  • #43
so can you explain how come the shear stress expression has theta in it? i mean, am i suppose to leave it like that?
and, based on your intuition, where would the failure first occure? (based on that ill try to prove it using the stress expression)
 
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  • #44
the stress turns out to be an insanely huge matrix because of theta from the R transformation matrix. am i really suppose to leave it like that?
 
  • #45
You'll want to work at \theta=\pi so the outer stress transformation rotates around the correct axis. That should simplify things. And don't you want 30^\circ instead of 60^\circ?

EDIT: Corrected \theta typo.
 
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  • #46
can you expand more on the theat=pi/2 ? i catually tried working with pi/4 because i figured that way i my matrix components are maximal
what does it mean outer stress transformation rotates around the correct axis? and is it correct that the failure will start at the middle of AB?

i know you are probably sick of me by now but the submition is tommorow morning :)
 
  • #47
Whoops, I meant to say \theta=\pi (corrected above). As we discussed earlier, if you're going to rotate around \bold{e_1} to determine the shear stress at the weld, then \bold{e_1} needs to coincide with \sigma_\mathrm{rr}. This only occurs in the above equations if \theta=\pi or 0.
 
  • #48
well that makes things a lot simpler :) now all i have to do is put it inside the multiplication above and look at the components A1,2
though its weird that the transformaition matrix from cylindrical to cartesian base turns into I, meaning does nothing to it..

and about where it first fails, middle of AB right?
 
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  • #49
dislect said:
and about where it first fails, middle of AB right?

I believe that question is asking where in the wall the weld first yields: inside, middle, outside, etc. You'll get this from the transformed shear stress.
 

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