News Someone show me the really vile prisoner abuse photos

[member 5645]

Finally phatmonky you should ask that to your buddy Rumsfeld. He has the full set of the real unsencored/unthreated photos. He spent three days in his office to examine them, although he said: 3 days to open the CD!.

But the people on this site, and the general populous across the internet are the ones freaking out. I don't need to see the ones that have not been released, for you have not seen them either - they are not the topic of conversation here.

 

[member 5645]

In fact this shows how you interpret reality.
In fact it is:
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MURDER.

rape isn't murder. Stop trying to change this thread.

 

[member 5645]

1. It's easy to rationalize for yourself that it is not hard what these guys experience. Morality is flexible. It's a question of your proper ideas about human dignity and ethics. It seems to me that you passed the red line of common sense and are back on the animal path. You think this is a Nintendo Game? This is about human beings.

2. These photo's are one-second frame. Before and after ... a number of things happened? This is about human beings. Remember?

3. If you judge all of this normal or acceptable done to people who are just suspects ... like a simple taxi-driver - or it could be your daughter kat - ... then I must say I have not much respect left for you, and I doubt seriously about your sincerity in looking for objectivity. This is about human beings. Remember?

This is about human beings. It happens that human have some rights. They are called Human Rights: And that's - for most of us - not a Nintendo Game. For some it is. Morality is flexible.

c

Who said I rationalized it? Once again, you try to make this thread and my words into something they haven't been and still aren't.
I don't understand the overexaggerated response.

You are showing yourself unable to make a reply without some inane statement putting words in my mouth. Get off my balls.

 

[member 5645]

Are you blind? The very FIRST link has the pictures. Here it is AGAIN: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/3737863.stm

If you look around there, you can find more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/3689167.stm

So that picture right there honestly shocked you? Honestly you think that is enough to make people go "Nick Berg deserved what he got", and say things like this is the "EXACT same acts"(quote from THIS board) that were happening before.
This picture is what people equate with Saddam's torture?

 

[kat]

1. It's easy to rationalize for yourself that it is not hard what these guys experience. Morality is flexible. It's a question of your proper ideas about human dignity and ethics. It seems to me that you passed the red line of common sense and are back on the animal path. You think this is a Nintendo Game? This is about human beings.

I don't remember anyone saying it was not hard. It's not a question of ethics or dignity, the questions was..."is it torture". And for the rest, as adam says "strawman" or is it "red herring"?

2. These photo's are one-second frame. Before and after ... a number of things happened? This is about human beings. Remember?

which makes any assumptions of before and after..exactly that supposition/assumption, innuendo...not proven fact.

3. If you judge all of this normal or acceptable done to people who are just suspects ...

show me the quote where someone said normal? or acceptable? the question again... "was it torture?"

like a simple taxi-driver - or it could be your daughter kat - ... then I must say I have not much respect left for you, and I doubt seriously about your sincerity in looking for objectivity. This is about human beings. Remember?

Strawman, and I think people are confusing different areas of the prison in which these people where held and those who they later released as innocent. Not sure about that, and no time to look it up but..really nothing you've said applies to the question. Abuse is not torture, nor is it the equivlent of Saddam's torture but apparently it is comparable to what's happening in French prisons..where's the outrage there? Of course, again, none of this is relevant to the question.

This is about human beings. It happens that human have some rights. They are called Human Rights: And that's - for most of us - not a Nintendo Game. For some it is. Morality is flexible.

It is about Human Rights, there you are right...but is it about torture? probably not..it is about abuse. It needs to be stopped. I don't do Nintindo, so no idea what you're talking about , Maybe your morality is flexible mine is not. But, I do know that when exceptionally lengthy coverage is given to this "scandal" and in the meantime no coverage is given to French prisons, or the even worse horrors of Arab prisons (or the other various horrid things happening in the world at the same time) it's called one thing, BIAS and I then must question what the goal is of this biased reporting. In my opinion it is to bring an increasingly negative appearance in Iraq and to undermine the good that is going on there. The same good and positive events that are not being reported. Why do this, only a few reasons I can think of which are to increase the chance of failure in Iraq and to strengthen the democratic parties chance in the upcoming election.

 

[Adam]

Umm...that's not exactly torture...(handcuffed to a railing on the walkway)

Humiliation does count as torture.

 

[Adam]

So that picture right there honestly shocked you? Honestly you think that is enough to make people go "Nick Berg deserved what he got", and say things like this is the "EXACT same acts"(quote from THIS board) that were happening before.
This picture is what people equate with Saddam's torture?

1) What has Nick Berg got to do with this thread? Stop trying to change the subject.

2) There were 15 pictures. View them all. Including thsoe with the corpses.

3) Saddam's prison-keepers also killed prisoners.

 

[kat]

humiliation can be a human rights violation, not "torture".

 

[Adam]

1.

• 1. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
• 2. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.

2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=torture

 

[member 5645]

1) What has Nick Berg got to do with this thread? Stop trying to change the subject.

2) There were 15 pictures. View them all. Including thsoe with the corpses.

3) Saddam's prison-keepers also killed prisoners.

1> Give me a ****ing break Adam. I am describing responses and asking whether THAT is the picture that illicited such.

2> No, You link me to them. You all just keep saying 'the bad ones are in there'

3> Again, Show me the pictures that are so vile and are causing the response they are. So far I have seen one, and considering the apathatic response in so many other stories at so many other times- I still believe there to be more at play than people truly believing that picture is so shocking.

 

[member 5645]

Humiliation does count as torture.

So having a prisoner hooded and naked is what makes people give all these responses about how Abu Gharib is still the same torture zone as before?

 

[Adam]

The pictures rotate on that page on a menu driven by Javascript or something. Go there, click the right arrow. Your lame excuse of "I am unable to click the arrow" does not fool anyone.

 

[member 5645]

The pictures rotate on that page on a menu driven by Javascript or something. Go there, click the right arrow. Your lame excuse of "I am unable to click the arrow" does not fool anyone.

Where was that my excuse? I am making sure that you don't have some sort of way to say "no no,it's the other pictures that are so bad!"
I am looking at them! I still don't understand how, given the response to so many other actions taken by the USA and other countries, this one delivers such overwhelming, seemingly exaggerated, responses.

My point is that I do not see what the big deal is. The soldiers were wrong. They should, and are, being condemned. However, where are the pics that people are saying are the same as what Saddam did? Handuffing a guy to some railing? Making them stand naked?

Humiliation is as bad as raping your wife in front of you and then forcing you to watch her die?(which no one but us dumb Americans seemed to condemn near as loud as people are hopping on this bandwagon)?

The response to these picture shows either :
1>A feigned attempt to care
2>A shock that the USA's soldiers could do something like this
3>Caring because it's being done by the USA
4>There are public pictures that I have not seen and no one will just post in this thread.
5> A silent world populous that just got the nerve to speak up when our soldiers did it, but not when it happened at anytime before.

My goal is to find out which one, for the response, while justified if it were a common place response,is completely out of the ordinary. With people saying things like "this is the biggest scandal the US has had in the last 20 years", I fail to understand why, and you fail to explain AT ALL why it is.

 

[studentx]

I completely agree with PhatMonkey.

 

[Adam]

My point is that I do not see what the big deal is. The soldiers were wrong. They should, and are, being condemned. However, where are the pics that people are saying are the same as what Saddam did? Handuffing a guy to some railing? Making them stand naked?

Killing them...

 

[jimmy p]

However as you mentioned above, Saddams prison keepers killed prisoners. But of course, everyone would expect that really. But as soon as a Westerner does it, it becomes bombshell news.

 

[member 5645]

Killing them...

But you have not seen those pictures. No one in the public that is making all of these comments about this "scandal" has seen them. No one who has said how horrible the pictures are has seen the pictures (of what Ihave already said is by far the worst treatment in this situation).

Again, you fail to show me and explain which picture elicits such a response and why.

 

[member 5645]

However as you mentioned above, Saddams prison keepers killed prisoners. But of course, everyone would expect that really. But as soon as a Westerner does it, it becomes bombshell news.

Is that the reason? If so, why won't Adam and Palastration, OR ANYONE, say it??
If so, what does that say about all of the past conspiracies and accusations that such people have leveled against the USA? We are supposedly the great satan, however, the sheer shock that people are 'expressing' in this situation means that they either are feigning the shock, or don't actually believe us to be the great satan.

 

[jimmy p]

It just seems that the Western world is shocked though. Other than the Nick Berg incident (which people are undecided as when it happened or whatever) what have the other countries done?

Is it big news elsewhere in the world?

I have to agree with phatmonky on this one, and besides, these photos could have been photoshopped or editted. It is amazing what people will do just to make things look worse.

 

[member 5645]

It just seems that the Western world is shocked though. Other than the Nick Berg incident (which people are undecided as when it happened or whatever) what have the other countries done?

Is it big news elsewhere in the world?

I have to agree with phatmonky on this one, and besides, these photos could have been photoshopped or editted. It is amazing what people will do just to make things look worse.

What have other countries done? Well for one, my personal peeve lately is the government sponsored genocide happening in Sudan, and that doesn't make any news. Nor does anyone act shocked. Is anyone calling for the heads of those that are killing 10,000's?? nope!

All of the Arab sites I am on, it is the topic of constant reference. However, when I mention the problem with generalizing all Americans based on these people's actions, the topics simply end.

I believe the photos to be real. I simply also believe the response to be over exaggerated.

 

[Adam]

But you have not seen those pictures. No one in the public that is making all of these comments about this "scandal" has seen them. No one who has said how horrible the pictures are has seen the pictures (of what Ihave already said is by far the worst treatment in this situation).

Again, you fail to show me and explain which picture elicits such a response and why.

Once again: Look at the pictures. You may learn something. Thus far you have refused to view the pictures, and all your whacky statements are based on that ignorance.

 

[member 5645]

Once again: Look at the pictures. You may learn something. Thus far you have refused to view the pictures, and all your whacky statements are based on that ignorance.

I've looked at every single one in every single one of your posts.
Are you are stating that you find them all equally horrific, and thus all equally justifiable catalysts for the response??
I repeat, you STILL have not explained the lapse and difference in response to this compared to other, far more horrific, events.


Whacky? Ignorance? Adam hominem.

 

[Adam]

So you saw the corpses?

 

[jimmy p]

Well I haven't heard of HUGE outrage from the Middle Eastern countries, other than reports from Al Jazeera and other Arabic sources. No real news on it on TV here, other than Americans being outraged.

The pictures that are really horrific are the Holocaust pictures and the Concentration camp pictures. These pictures nowadays arent much compared to those ones.

 

[Adam]

I'm surprised it isn't all over the new there. We see it every day on 4 or 5 channels, in a dozen languages, morning, afternoon, and evening.

 

[member 5645]

So you saw the corpses?

Yes, some dead guys with soldiers giving a thumbsup.

As I said earlier in this thread:
Stupid soldiers
They should and will be punished
Such a picture never caused such 'a scandal' before. So WHY now?

 

[Adam]

Why now? Well, usually the USA government is better at covering up its atrocities.

 

[member 5645]

Why now? Well, usually the USA government is better at covering up its atrocities.

So are we saying that there is a reasonable expecatation that Americans don't act like this?
If that is so, what happened to all of the antiamericanism polls that said most people hate us? They must have had SOME backing for their thoughts, or did they?

 

[Adam]

So are we saying that there is a reasonable expecatation that Americans don't act like this?

No. There is no reasonable expectation that the US does not act like this. That country's history is full of this sort of behaviour. They merely cover it up as much as possible.

If that is so, what happened to all of the antiamericanism polls that said most people hate us? They must have had SOME backing for their thoughts, or did they?

Of course. People hate the USA. That is the backing.

 

[member 5645]

No. There is no reasonable expectation that the US does not act like this. That country's history is full of this sort of behaviour. They merely cover it up as much as possible.


Of course. People hate the USA. That is the backing.

Well then there is where I hit the problem.
If there this is a common thing, and everyone hates us, and are founded in that hate because they KNOW this is a common thing, then why the shock?

You are telling me that the shock is because we DIDN'T cover it up well enough?? I find that a bit hard to believe.