Specific volumes of a saturated substance due to pressure

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the behavior of specific volumes of saturated liquids and vapors in relation to pressure changes. Participants explore theoretical frameworks, equations, and concepts from thermodynamics, including the Buckingham-Pi theorem and the Clausius-Clapeyron equation, while questioning the underlying principles and assumptions involved.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion regarding why the specific volume of a saturated liquid increases with pressure, while the specific volume of a saturated vapor decreases, and seeks an equational approach to clarify this.
  • Another participant provides a mathematical expression for the specific volume of a liquid, suggesting that the increase in specific volume with saturation vapor pressure implies a relationship between thermal expansion and bulk compressibility.
  • It is noted that the specific volume of a vapor can be approximated using the ideal gas law, leading to a discussion on the conditions under which the specific volume of saturated vapor increases with saturation vapor pressure.
  • Several participants inquire about the relationship between bulk compressibility and bulk modulus, as well as the naming of the equations presented, indicating a search for clarity on these concepts.
  • A participant questions whether the assumption that the specific volume of a saturated liquid increases with saturation vapor pressure is based on experimental knowledge, drawing a parallel to established natural laws.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the assumptions regarding the specific volume behavior of saturated liquids and vapors, and there are multiple competing views on the underlying principles and their implications.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the definitions and relationships between bulk compressibility and bulk modulus, as well as the experimental basis for certain assumptions about specific volumes.

mech-eng
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I cannot understand why specific volume of a saturated liquid rises when pressure rises, specific volume of saturated vapor reduces when pressure rises. This made me remember buckingham-pi theorem. Is there any equational approach or formulation that show this?

Thank you.
 
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The specific volume of a liquid is typically expressed according to $$dV=V(-\kappa dP+\alpha dT)$$where ##\alpha## is the coefficient of thermal expansion and ##\kappa## is the bulk compressibility. If the specific volume of a saturated liquid increases with saturation vapor pressure, it means that $$\frac{dP_{sat}(T)}{dT}<\frac{\alpha}{\kappa}$$So the thermal expansion wins out over the bulk compression.

The specific volume of a vapor that can be approximated by the ideal gas law is given by:
$$V=\frac{RT}{P}$$
So, $$dV=\frac{V}{T}dT-\frac{V}{P}dP=V\left(-\frac{dP}{P}+\frac{dT}{T}\right)$$ So the coefficient of thermal expansion of an ideal gas is 1/T and the bulk compressibility is 1/P. If the specific volume of the saturated vapor increases with the saturation vapor pressure, it means that $$\frac{dP_{sat}(T)}{dT}>\frac{P_{sat}}{T}$$From the Clausius-Clapeyron equation, all that this requires is for the heat of vaporization to be positive (which it is).
 
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are bulk compressibility and bulk module the same things?
Chestermiller said:
The specific volume of a liquid is typically expressed according to
dV=V(−κdP+αdT)​
dV=V(-\kappa dP+\alpha dT)where α\alpha is the coefficient of thermal expansion and κ\kappa is the bulk compressibility
What is the name of above equation? I cannot remember if I ever saw it in undergraduate thermodynamics books?

Thank you.
 
mech-eng said:
are bulk compressibility and bulk module the same things?

What is the name of above equation? I cannot remember if I ever saw it in undergraduate thermodynamics books?

Thank you.
In freshman physics, you learned about thermal expansion and bulk compressibility of solids and liquids. This equation is just the combination of the two.
 
Chestermiller said:
The specific volume of a liquid is typically expressed according to
dV=V(−κdP+αdT)​
dV=V(-\kappa dP+\alpha dT)where α\alpha is the coefficient of thermal expansion and κ\kappa is the bulk compressibility. If the specific volume of a saturated liquid increases with saturation vapor pressure, it means that
dPsat(T)dT<ακ​

Above you have done a very instructive proof but for that proof we have already assumed that "specific volume of a saturated liquid increases with saturatino vapor pressure." Is this an experimental knowledge, being similar to natural laws being known by only experience with no counter situations against observed such as four laws of thermodynamics and Newton's three laws of motion?

Thank you.
 

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