Spring & Blocks: Max Friction Force & Oscillation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the dynamics of two blocks, A and B, where block B oscillates on top of block A due to a spring attached to it. The focus is on understanding the maximum friction force between the blocks and the conditions under which block B does not slip over block A during oscillation.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes that at maximum displacement, the maximum value of the friction force should be equal to μmg, questioning why block B does not slip if Kx exceeds this value.
  • Another participant argues that for block B to oscillate without slipping, the frictional force must be less than μmg, emphasizing that static friction can adjust to prevent slipping as long as Kx remains below this threshold.
  • A third participant reiterates that the maximum frictional force at maximum displacement should equal Kx, raising a question about how block B can return to its mean position if this is the case.
  • A later reply acknowledges a previous misunderstanding, clarifying that the maximum friction force can never equal Kx and must always be less than Kx for the blocks to move together.
  • Further analysis is provided regarding the forces acting on blocks A and B, suggesting that the friction force acts as an internal force in the system when considering the combined acceleration of both blocks.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between the maximum friction force and the forces acting on the blocks. There is no consensus on the exact conditions under which block B will slip or remain stationary on block A.

Contextual Notes

Participants discuss the roles of static versus dynamic friction and the implications of maximum displacement on the forces involved. The conversation highlights the complexity of the system and the need for careful consideration of the forces at play.

zorro
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I am stuck up in a situation created by me.

Consider a block A resting on a smooth horizontal surface. There is another block B of the same size/mass resting over it. There is some friction present in between them, with coefficient of friction μ. A spring of spring constant K is attached to block B (the other side attached to a wall off course) and the blocks are displaced through a distance 'x' together and released. The block B oscillates without slipping over the block A.

At the max. displacement, there should be a max. value of the friction force. Now is this value of friction force equal to μmg? If we draw a F.B.D. of block B at max. displacement, we find that Kx should be greater than friction force for the block to oscillate. If the max. value is μmg, and Kx>μmg, then why doesn't the block B slip over the block A?
 
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if kx exceeds μmg, there will be slipping and relative motion between the blocks. The frictional force at max displacement has to be less than μmg, only then the blocks will oscillate together without slipping.
Reason: The frictional force is STATIC and not DYNAMIC. Static friction adjusts itself with the amount of force applied on the body. So μmg (where μ is coefficient of static friction) can be a quantity which is greater than Kx (where x is the maximum displacement). If even the extreme value of Kx is less than μmg, then the two bodies never slip against each other.

suppose frictional force is f between the blocks and at maximum displacement,
f(max) = kx (x is maximum at maximum displacement)

f(max) < μmg (for the bodies to never slip)
 
androidx219 said:
f(max) = kx (x is maximum at maximum displacement)

If f(max)=kx, how do you think will the block return to its mean position and perform oscillations?
 
I am sorry, I was grossly wrong at the statement I made there. Thanks for pointing that out and correcting me. f(max) can never be equal to kx and will always be less than kx, otherwise the blocks wouldn't move at all as you rightly said.

Lets consider the FBDs of A and B separately,

suppose at anypoint say, the combined acceleration is a, then
K.x - f = m.a (for B)
f= m.a (for A)

so k.x = 2m.a

so when considering A and B as a combined body together, f comes out to be a mere inernal force for this system. This should make things a bit clearer to both of us.
 

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