SR and GR in a medium, gravitational waves

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of Lorentz transformations in a medium with a refractive index and the behavior of gravitational waves in such contexts. Participants explore theoretical aspects, including the speed of light in different media, the nature of gravitational waves, and the challenges of linearization in general relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the speed of light being altered to c/n in a medium should influence Lorentz transformations, suggesting that it complicates explanations for phenomena like Cerenkov radiation.
  • Another participant confirms that the invariant speed, c, refers to the speed of light in a vacuum, not in a medium.
  • It is noted that the refractive index is typically frequency-dependent, which may affect Lorentz invariance in general.
  • Concerns are raised about the breakdown of the gravitational wave picture if linearization cannot be performed, with a participant asking for reasons to believe gravitational waves still exist beyond that point.
  • A later reply suggests that the Einstein Equation can be expressed as a nonlinear wave under certain conditions, although it questions whether these "waves" correspond to gravitational waves as understood in the context of small perturbations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the speed of light in a medium does not influence Lorentz transformations, but there is no consensus on the implications for gravitational waves, particularly regarding linearization and the existence of gravitational waves in more complex scenarios.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the limitations of their discussions, particularly regarding the dependence on definitions and the unresolved nature of the mathematical steps involved in understanding gravitational waves in non-linear contexts.

haushofer
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A little question which I thought of today.

I thought about what happened in a medium with Lorentz transformation. With a refraction index n, the speed of light is altered to c/n. However, as far as I can see now this shouldn't influence the Lorentztransformations, right? It's tempting to put c --> c/n in the Lorentz transformations. If this would be the case, one would have a hard time explaining things like Cerenkov radiation. Also, photons interact with the electromagnetic properties of a material, but we could think of massless particles without charge. So it seems that the idea of putting c to c/n in a Lorentz transformation would "single out" photons, while the axiom "all inertial observers measure the same speed of light" shouldn't depend on the particular massless particle you could take. Could some one comment on that?

But what about gravitational waves in a medium? I don't see how the linearized Einstein equations with non vanishing energy momentum tensor would still give a wave equation with a speed exactly equal to c. And what would be the vacuum around which we do this linearised expansion? How would we perform such a perturbation, and are there articles or books about this?

And also something which has bothered me a long time about gravitational waves: what about the case in which we can't perform a linearisation? Is it true that for arbitrary "massive/energetic" sources we still have gravitational waves which travel at c? At some point our perturbation breaks down, I would say, and then we would have a hard time getting a wave equation.

Just some thoughts :)
 
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haushofer said:
With a refraction index n, the speed of light is altered to c/n. However, as far as I can see now this shouldn't influence the Lorentztransformations, right?
You are correct. The invariant speed, c, is the speed of light in vacuum, not in the local medium.
 
In a medium, the refractive index usually is a function of frequency, so the speed of light will be a function of frequency, and there should not be Lorentz invariance, except in special cases.

Yes, the gravitational wave picture breaks down if a linearization cannot be performed.
 
atyy said:
Yes, the gravitational wave picture breaks down if a linearization cannot be performed.
So what are the reasons to believe we still have gravitational waves beyond that point?
 
haushofer said:
So what are the reasons to believe we still have gravitational waves beyond that point?

You can write the Einstein Equation as a nonlinear wave if the spacetime can be covered by harmonic coordinates. But I don't know if the "waves" there mean the same thing as gravitational waves as small perturbations on a background spacetime.
 

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