Stored Lithium-ion batteries self exterminate after 2-3 years?

[Pleonasm]

https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/lithium-ion-battery2.htm

"Lithium-ion batteries age. They only last two to three years, even if they are sitting on a shelf unused. So do not "avoid using" the battery with the thought that the battery pack will last five years."

Is this claim substantied by facts? My mother has a lion-battery smartphone from 2013 still in use. Can someone explain how it's still working if the battery will self exterminate within 2-3 years regardless of use?

 

[Drakkith]

The 2-3 years is how long it takes for the batteries to degrade enough that they are very noticeably 'used'. They don't last nearly as long as they did when they were new and the maximum voltage is substantially reduced. It's not a sudden works vs doesn't work scenario.

 

[anorlunda]

I did a little Internet research on your question. Here are four things that may be relevant.

1. Shelf life and cycle life are different things. Your mother's phone was presumably used during those years.
2. Not all lithium batteries are alike. Chemistry and structural differences affect shelf life and cycle life. Some lithium batteries (such as in medical implants) are designed to last 20 years.
3. Storage while discharged is bad. They should have 40-100% charge while stored. One site recommends recharging them once a year even if not used.
4. Storage temperature and humidity are factors.

 

[Pleonasm]

The 2-3 years is how long it takes for the batteries to degrade enough that they are very noticeably 'used'. They don't last nearly as long as they did when they were new and the maximum voltage is substantially reduced. It's not a sudden works vs doesn't work scenario.

How do you account for the fact that my newly purchased Sony phone that had been on the stores shelf for 1+ year (default battery level had dropped to 10% by storage alone) still has a fresh battery performance?

And if I'm reading this data properly, a Lithium ion only loses a few percentages stored in favourable temperatures after 1 year.
Table 3: Estimated recoverable capacity when storing Li-ion for one year at various temperatures. Elevated temperature hastens permanent capacity loss. Not all Li-ion systems behave the same.

0°C 98% (after 1 year)
25°C 96% (after 1 year)
40°C 85% (after 1 year)
60°C 75% (after 1 year)
(after 3 months)

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

 

[Pleonasm]

I did a little Internet research on your question. Here are four things that may be relevant.

1. Shelf life and cycle life are different things. Your mother's phone was presumably used during those years.
2. Not all lithium batteries are alike. Chemistry and structural differences affect shelf life and cycle life. Some lithium batteries (such as in medical implants) are designed to last 20 years.
3. Storage while discharged is bad. They should have 40-100% charge while stored. One site recommends recharging them once a year even if not used.
4. Storage temperature and humidity are factors.

The citation I gave claimed that it doesn't matter if you cut down on the usage. It doesn't matter what you do, - it cannot live past 2-3 years anyway, or else their meanin of the word "last" differ from mine.

 

[Drakkith]

The citation I gave claimed that it doesn't matter if you cut down on the usage. It doesn't matter what you do, - it cannot live past 2-3 years anyway, or else their meanin of the word "last" differ from mine.

I would not interpret their claim as being an 'all or nothing' type of claim. That is, their meaning of the word 'last' is different from yours.

 

[Pleonasm]

I would not interpret their claim as being an 'all or nothing' type of claim. That is, their meaning of the word 'last' is different from yours.

"do not "avoid using" the battery with the thought that the battery pack will last five years."

That is explicitly stating that the battery will NOT last 5 years.

 

[Drakkith]

"do not "avoid using" the battery with the thought that the battery pack will last five years."

That is explicitly stating that the battery will NOT last 5 years.

Yes, because the batteries will not work as well as they would have when you bought them. That doesn't mean that they flat out will not work at all, just that they will work at a much reduced capacity.

 

[Pleonasm]

Yes, because the batteries will not work as well as they would have when you bought them. That doesn't mean that they flat out will not work at all, just that they will work at a much reduced capacity.

Be that as it may, you did not account for how my 1 year old, stored Sony Xperia copy has the exact same battery performance as the one I bought a year before (I broke the previous one and bought a new one a few days ago). It's the same model - XZ Premium

 

[Drakkith]

Be that as it may, you did not account for how my 1 year old, stored Sony Xperia copy has the exact same battery performance as the one I bought a year before (I broke the previous one and bought a new one a few days ago). It's the same model - XZ Premium

Why would there be a significant difference?

 

[Pleonasm]

I clocked the performance of the XZ Premium purchased a year ago, when it was new, and now this stored, unused one - Same performance.

 

[Pleonasm]

Why would there be a significant difference?

Because Lion Batteries degrade stored (kinda the point of the citation I gave). I had lost the default charge mode all the way down to 10% opening a brand new phone. The default charge mode for "fresh" phones in a store is around 44-55%

 

[Drakkith]

Because Lion Batteries degrade stored (kinda the point of the citation I gave). I had lost the default charge mode all the way down to 10% opening a brand new phone. The default charge mode is around 44-55%

Yes, but as you yourself showed in post #4, the degradation can be quite small. When stored at room temperature you still have about 95% of the maximum performance after 1 year. After 3 years this falls to about 85% (assuming a linear relationship), potentially less if the temperature is higher, such as if they've been stored in a non-climate-controlled facility. A 5% drop isn't noticeable, but a 15% drop can be and a 25-30% drop is definitely noticeable.

 

[Pleonasm]

Yes, but as you yourself showed in post #4, the degradation can be quite small. When stored at room temperature you still have about 95% of the maximum performance after 1 year. After 3 years this falls to about 85% (assuming a linear relationship), potentially less if the temperature is higher, such as if they've been stored in a non-climate-controlled facility. A 5% drop isn't noticeable, but a 15% drop can be and a 25-30% drop is definitely noticeable.

So what to do in a year if I want to replace the battery? The batteries for the model would have been 2 years in storage by then. Can I put in a generic Lithium-ion battery of the same volt but say smaller size, without jeopardizing the phones internal components?

 

[Drakkith]

So what to do in a year if I want to replace the battery? The batteries for the model would have been 2 years in storage by then. Can I put in a generic Lithium-ion battery of the same volt but say smaller size, without jeopardizing the phones internal components?

Yes, as long as the voltage is identical then you should be okay.

 

[Pleonasm]

Yes, as long as the voltage is identical then you should be okay.

So you don't need an indentical physical fit to actually mount the lion battery in place into the phone?

 

[Drakkith]

So you don't need an indentical physical fit to actually mount the lion battery in place into the phone?

If you can fit it inside and somehow make the connections, it doesn't matter what its shape and size are. They don't affect the electrical performance.

 

[Merlin3189]

So what to do in a year if I want to replace the battery? The batteries for the model would have been 2 years in storage by then.

I would hope not. Manufacturers should be producing batteries just in time for needs and storing them in optimal conditions for the minimum time necessary. Maybe the availability of cheap batteries on <internet sources> represents the disposal of any overstock?
If your phone is obsolete and the batteries are no longer produced, then presumably you really are buying old batteries. Perhaps somebody is preserving some stock in good conditions?

Aside from those comments, I wonder how you know your replacement battery is as good as the original? Battery testing is not simple. (Read more on Battery University.)

 

[Nik_2213]

"So you don't need an identical physical fit to actually mount the lion battery in place into the phone?"

IMHO, you'll need a closely physically and electrically compatible battery, from a reputable supplier, especially if there is 'smart' charging etc.

Think chip-coded ink-jet cartridges on steroids, with possible leakage of fire and smoke etc rather than just ink...

 

[Pleonasm]

Aside from those comments, I wonder how you know your replacement battery is as good as the original? Battery testing is not simple. (Read more on Battery University.)

A brand new generic replacement battery is surely better than a 2-year one model specific. It only costs a few hundred dollars to buy a new battery and pay a work-shop, as opposed to hundreds of dollars for a new high end phone. The LCD display on it will not break down anytime soon, unlike the OLED technology which is still in its infancy.

 

[Drakkith]

A brand new generic replacement battery is surely better than a 2-year one model specific

Not necessarily. If stored properly, a 2-year old battery could still have >90% of its original capacity and performance. A generic battery may have the correct voltage, but the capacity may be different and there may be other performance differences.

It only costs a few hundred dollars to buy a new battery and pay a work-shop, as opposed to thousands of dollars for a new high end phone.

Yes but this is about new vs old batteries, not phones.

 

[Pleonasm]

Not necessarily. If stored properly, a 2-year old battery could still have >90% of its original capacity and performance. A generic battery may have the correct voltage, but the capacity may be different and there may be other performance differences.
Yes but this is about new vs old batteries, not phones.

I have no idea how the modell specific, 2 year old battery has been stored from the online shop though. That's an additional problem.

 

[Drakkith]

I have no idea how the modell specific, 2 year old battery has been stored from the online shop though. That's an additional problem.

You also have no idea how long the generic batteries have been stored.

 

[Pleonasm]

You also have no idea how long the generic batteries have been stored.

Doesn't matter if I buy recently fabricated ones.

 

[Pleonasm]

This is the original battery for my phone. Is it a difficult battery to substitute, you think? Is the proportions of it fairly standard?

https://rounded.com/sony-xperia-xz-premium-g8141-g8142-battery-lip1642erpc-3230mah-1306-8979.html

 

[CWatters]

Googling for g8141 battery suggests they are available.

 

[CWatters]

Has anyone mentioned self discharge? You have to be careful when recharging li cells that have been over discharged. It can be a fire risk. I'm guessing that cells which haven't been used for many years might be over discharged due to self discharge.

 

[Pleonasm]

Has anyone mentioned self discharge? You have to be careful when recharging li cells that have been over discharged. It can be a fire risk. I'm guessing that cells which haven't been used for many years might be over discharged due to self discharge.

It states when googling the battery (which appears to be Sony oriented). Translation: This Sony G8141 battery contains a chip that prevents overloading and short circuit.

"Lifespan decreases regardless of whether it is being used or not" We assure you that batteries sold from us are new".

http://www.batteryupgrade.se/shopBr...rtmentProductId/25881704/shopGroupId/63850976

 

[Pleonasm]

The battery I linked to has lost 30% of it's capacity in two years (already one year old).

 

[Pleonasm]

"Lithium-ion batteries age. They only last two to three years, even if they are sitting on a shelf unused. So do not "avoid using" the battery with the thought that the battery pack will last five years."

Again...

The citation suggests that active (that is non stored) lion batteries suffer diminished capacities regardless of use. Is this in fact true?

The sources I gave demonstrate that different charging routines affect lifespan.

Why do those folks imply that level of usage is irrelevant on a 5 year span, when this is clearly not the case in the testings?

 

[Drakkith]

The citation suggests that active (that is non stored) lion batteries suffer diminished capacities regardless of use. Is this in fact true?

Of course. If the batteries are deteriorating over time even in storage, putting them into use doesn't somehow stop this. In fact it makes them deteriorate faster through the charge/discharge process and the more variable environments that batteries are used in.

The sources I gave demonstrate that different charging routines affect lifespan.

Why do the folks in the citation write that different usage is irrelevant on a 5 year span, when this is clearly not the case in the testings?

Are you referring to your link in post #28? I don't see where it said that the usage is irrelevant.

 

[Pleonasm]

Of course. If the batteries are deteriorating over time even in storage, putting them into use doesn't somehow stop this.

I mean suffer diminished capacity "of the same ratio" regardless of use (all else equal). This is false. Different charging routines and stamina settings on ones phone prolong battery quality/life. Could the citation simply be outdated?

 

[Drakkith]

I mean suffer diminished capacity "of the same ratio" regardless of use (all else equal). This is false. Different charging routines and stamina settings on ones phone prolong battery quality/life. Could the citation simply be outdated?

I don't see where the citation said anything like this.

 

[Pleonasm]

I don't see where it said that the usage is irrelevant.

Perhaps I didn't take "do not avoid using" literal enough. They probably referred to storage vs usage only. Not different levels of usage.

 

[Pleonasm]

Btw, speaking of capacity, I noticed that worn-out Lion Batteries are slower to charge up, regardless of it's a quick charge or not. Are you guys aware of this phenomenon?

It doesn't help to have a charger nearby, it takes ages to recharge...

 

[Drakkith]

Perhaps I didn't take "do not avoid using" literal enough. They probably referred to storage vs usage only. Not different levels of usage.

For starters, I don't even know which citation you're referring to. You need to clearly state which citation you're talking about. I thought you were talking about the link in post #28. The link in your original post is saying don't leave your batteries in storage for years expecting them to perform as if they were brand new.

Btw, speaking of capacity, I noticed that worn-out Lion Batteries are slower to charge up, regardless of it's a quick charge or not. Are you guys aware of this phenomenon?

I haven't noticed this with any of my old devices, but I suppose its possible.

 

[Pleonasm]

For starters, I don't even know which citation you're referring to. You need to clearly state which citation you're talking about. I thought you were talking about the link in post #28. The link in your original post is saying don't leave your batteries in storage for years expecting them to perform as if they were brand new.

I'm referring to the original citation. Now the data on how to optimize lion battery capacity in usage suggests that they should be kept between 75 and 65% if I am reading this correctly.

"The smallest capacity loss is attained by charging Li-ion to 75 percent and discharging to 65 percent"

Aren't 75-65% charge levels quite hot batteries relatively speaking? Why not between 40 and 50 %or 50 and 60%?

 

[Drakkith]

Isn't 65-75% charge levels quite hot batteries relatively speaking? Why not between 40 and 50%?

Couldn't tell you.

 

[Pleonasm]

Couldn't tell you.

But did I read that properly? A user is adviced to keep the batteries between 75 and 65% permanently?

 

[Pleonasm]

The 75-65% optimization result is from here https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

 

[Drakkith]

But did I read that properly? A user is adviced to keep the batteries between 75 and 65% permanently?

For storage. You obviously can't keep it in that range if you're using it. For example, the batteries for my lawn mower and string trimmer only get used one every week or two, so I should store them within that range if I want to get the best lifetime out of them. Of course, that's practically impossible since I have no way of easily charging it to 75%.

If you're using a phone, tablet, laptop, or other similar device it's really not possible to keep them between 75% and 65%, so you're just going to have to accept that your batteries are going to deteriorate slightly faster than they might otherwise.

 

[Pleonasm]

If you're using a phone, tablet, laptop, or other similar device it's really not possible to keep them between 75% and 65%, so you're just going to have to accept that your batteries are going to deteriorate slightly faster than they might otherwise.

Fairly easy with a quick charger with you to keep it around those figures. Sony claims the quick charger will not hurt their battery.

 

[Drakkith]

Fairly easy with a quick charger with you to keep it around those figures.

If you want to constantly be watching you battery status. But I don't consider that to be easy or convenient.

 

[Rive]

Is this claim substantied by facts?

Well, way back I made some cash by buying up a bunch of cheap 'new, defunct' stuff from the local auctioneer with dead batteries and selling them after replacing the battery, so kind of 'yes'.

However, that 2-3 year is a bit short. It might have been be correct when the Li-ion was new, but by my experience these days any decent (not the cheapest ones from the Chinese online stores - for those maybe one year, and even that starts at 50% capacity) battery will last (I mean: still usable) for at least 4-5 years if handled/stored with care.

 

[Pleonasm]

Well, way back I made some cash by buying up a bunch of cheap 'new, defunct' stuff from the local auctioneer with dead batteries and selling them after replacing the battery, so kind of 'yes'.

However, that 2-3 year is a bit short. It might have been be correct when the Li-ion was new, but by my experience these days any decent (not the cheapest ones from the Chinese online stores - for those maybe one year, and even that starts at 50% capacity) battery will last (I mean: still usable) for at least 4-5 years if handled/stored with care.

That has been my experience too. Do you have any insight on using non original lion batteries in electronic equipment? I can't find any info on whether it's feasible or not.

 

[Rive]

Do you have any insight on using non original lion batteries in electronic equipment? I can't find any info on whether it's feasible or not.

Always depends on the actual case. The only thing common is that you have to be very careful.
Also, recently it is getting more and more troublesome so it's often better to find parts from other damaged equipment instead of buying from sources with unknown reliability.

For my old tablet (which I'm really reluctant to let go) I got two sets of replacement from China (the only place I could find components): one was ~ 60% of the nominal capacity (I mean, 60% of the the original 5Ah: on the sticker it was 10Ah - guess somebody believed it as an additive parameter for two cells...), and without any decent balancer on the two prismatic cells, so the replacement lasted only three months. The second was also ~60%, but I've moved the balancer from the original battery right after unwrapping the package so it lasted three months longer. Finally, I've bought an identical tablet with broken screen. The capacity of the battery was still around 90% and this was already a year ago.

 

[Pleonasm]

Always depends on the actual case. The only thing common is that you have to be very careful.
Also, recently it is getting more and more troublesome so it's often better to find parts from other damaged equipment instead of buying from sources with unknown reliability.

For my old tablet (which I'm really reluctant to let go) I got two sets of replacement from China (the only place I could find components): one was ~ 60% of the nominal capacity (I mean, 60% of the the original 5Ah: on the sticker it was 10Ah - guess somebody believed it as an additive parameter for two cells...), and without any decent balancer on the two prismatic cells, so the replacement lasted only three months. The second was also ~60%, but I've moved the balancer from the original battery right after unwrapping the package so it lasted three months longer. Finally, I've bought an identical tablet with broken screen. The capacity of the battery was still around 90% and this was already a year ago.

Don't you think a mechanic in a work-shop could determine whether the foreign battery with more or less mAh, and what not, would pose a problem?

 

[Rive]

Don't you think a mechanic in a work-shop could determine whether the foreign battery with more or less mAh, and what not, would pose a problem?

To properly check a battery is not witchcraft, but you have to buy it first and then if it's not OK it's already late...

In any case I would go for an identical one first, and I would stick to that for months before giving up and resort to more-or-less kind of solutions.

 

[Pleonasm]

If you want to constantly be watching you battery status. But I don't consider that to be easy or convenient.

But to another point I don't get, the number of full cycles would occur faster if I were to charge it every 10%... and reach the maximum charge cycle treshold faster than If I charged it more conservatively

 

[Drakkith]

But to another point I don't get, the number of full cycles would occur faster if I were to charge it every 10%... and reach the maximum charge cycle treshold faster than If I charged it more conservatively

That's not a full cycle.