Superpositon of energies vs. Superposition of forces

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the relationship between the superposition of energies and the superposition of forces, particularly in the context of gravitational interactions and Lagrange points. Participants explore whether these two concepts can be considered mathematically equivalent and how they may contradict each other in certain scenarios.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses skepticism about the mutual inclusivity of superposition of energies and forces, suggesting they may clash and contradict each other.
  • Another participant provides a mathematical expression for the gradient of a sum of potentials, indicating that gradients can be added together, but does not resolve the initial skepticism.
  • Questions are raised about the behavior of objects at L4 and L5 points in relation to superposition, with a participant seeking clarification on how these points relate to forces and energies.
  • A later reply compares Lagrange points to geostationary satellites, explaining that the forces involved can appear stationary in a rotating reference frame, but does not address the initial concerns about superposition.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether the superposition of forces and energies are equivalent. Multiple competing views remain regarding their relationship and implications.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the implications of superposition in different contexts, particularly regarding gravitational interactions and reference frames. There are unresolved questions about the mathematical and conceptual frameworks involved.

kmarinas86
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I cannot see how the two can be mutually inclusive. If you super impose particles with potential energies that fall off as 1/r that are homogeneously distributed through space then take the gradient of them, I hardly believe that they will result in the exactly the same thing than if you take the 1/r^2 distance for each one.

Must superposition of forces be mathematical equivalent to superposition of energies, without exception? I have a feeling they clash and contradict each other. Can someone let me know how, why? Thanks
 
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kmarinas86 said:
I cannot see how the two can be mutually inclusive. If you super impose particles with potential energies that fall off as 1/r that are homogeneously distributed through space then take the gradient of them, I hardly believe that they will result in the exactly the same thing than if you take the 1/r^2 distance for each one.

Must superposition of forces be mathematical equivalent to superposition of energies, without exception? I have a feeling they clash and contradict each other. Can someone let me know how, why? Thanks

Hi kmarinas86! :smile:

Gradient(a) = ( ∂a/dx , ∂a/∂y , ∂a/∂z ) …

Gradient(a + b + c + … ) = Gradient(a) + Gradient(b) + Gradient(c) + … :smile:
 
tiny-tim said:
Hi kmarinas86! :smile:

Gradient(a) = ( ∂a/dx , ∂a/∂y , ∂a/∂z ) …

Gradient(a + b + c + … ) = Gradient(a) + Gradient(b) + Gradient(c) + … :smile:

I had trouble understanding how L4 and L5 points works if they were simply the superposition of forces.

How does an object orbit an L4 and L5 point work in relation to the superposition of forces and energies? Thanks for your participation so far! :)
 
Lagrange points

kmarinas86 said:
I had trouble understanding how L4 and L5 points works if they were simply the superposition of forces.

How does an object orbit an L4 and L5 point work in relation to the superposition of forces and energies? Thanks for your participation so far! :)

Hi kmarinas86! :smile:

It's the same as a geostationary satellite … the geostationary satellite feels a force, but a "laboratory" frame, rotating with the earth, regards it as stationary.

Similarly, the L4 etc points are orbiting the sun as fast as we are … they're only stationary as seen in the appropriately rotating frame …see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_points
As seen in a rotating reference frame with the same period as the two co-orbiting bodies, the gravitational fields of two massive bodies combined with the centrifugal force are in balance at the Lagrangian points, allowing the third body to be stationary with respect to the first two bodies.
 

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