The electric field of an atom is puzzling to me

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the electric field of atoms, particularly focusing on the behavior of electrons in relation to protons within helium and lithium. Participants explore concepts related to atomic structure, electron behavior, and the implications of adding electrons to different atomic nuclei.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that an electron radiates in all directions while orbiting a proton, questioning how the electric fields of protons and electrons interact within an atom.
  • Another participant corrects the first by stating that lithium is not formed by simply adding an electron to helium, emphasizing that atomic properties are determined by the number of protons.
  • A participant asks whether the third proton's electric field overcomes the influence of the two electrons in helium, and why the positive and negative fields cancel out in helium.
  • Another participant clarifies that the term "orbit" should not be taken literally, explaining that electrons in atoms are in stationary states and that their electric fields extend in all directions.
  • It is noted that the total electric field of a proton and an electron can be very close to zero when viewed from a distance, and that adding an electron to helium results in a helium ion rather than lithium.
  • Participants discuss the shielding effect of electrons on the nucleus and how this affects the attraction of outer electrons compared to inner ones, with one participant cautioning that the explanation is somewhat simplified and relies on quantum mechanics for detailed understanding.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of atomic structure and the behavior of electric fields within atoms. There is no consensus on the implications of adding electrons to helium or the interpretation of electron behavior in atomic contexts.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions about atomic behavior and electric field interactions remain unresolved, and the discussion reflects a range of interpretations regarding electron distribution and the effects of additional protons and electrons.

bobie
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I hope someone can make me understand this:

an electron radiates in all directions, when it is circling around a proton its electric field should radiate both inside and outside the orbit , but it doesn't : an atom of helium He2 is neutral and the protons neutralize also the outgoing field of the 2 electrons.
That is a bit odd but I can understand so far.
But, if we add an electron and get lithium: the inner shell He2 is not neutral any longer and the third electron gets electrostatic attraction.

How does it work?

Thanks
 
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Wait, what?
No, you do not get lithium by adding an electron to helium. The chemical properties of an atom are determined by its atomic number, the number of protons in the nucleus.

The number of electrons is equal to the number of protons in a neutrally charged atom. Atoms which have more or fewer electrons than protons are called ions, and the atom has a net positive or negative charge depending on whether the number of electrons is less than or greater than the number of protons in the nucleus.
 
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Yes, that's right, so the third proton's field overcomes the 2-electron barrier?
And, why in the helium atom the positive and negative field cancel out?
And why the second electron of helium gets a lesser attraction ?
 
bobie said:
I hope someone can make me understand this:

an electron radiates in all directions,
No it doesn't - only accelerating charges radiate. The electric field of an electron extends in all directions.

when it is circling around a proton its electric field should radiate both inside and outside the orbit , but it doesn't :
The word "orbit" used to describe how electrons are bound to nuclei should not be taken literally - the electron is not thought of as moving in a circle about the nucleus.

When the electron is bound to an atom, it is in a "stationary state" i.e. a non-radiating one.
The electron charge behaves, under most situations, as if it is distributed about the nucleus like a cloud.

The electric field of the electron goes in all directions even when it is bound to an atom.
However, the electric field of the proton also goes in all directions.
The total electric field of one proton and one electron is very close to zero - viewed from a long way away.

If you have a point charge of +q surrounded by a solid sphere of total charge -q, the electric field outside the sphere is going to be zero. You can work it out for yourself.
However - this is an oversimplification - the electron charge is not always distributed evenly.

But, if we add an electron and get lithium: the inner shell He2 is not neutral any longer and the third electron gets electrostatic attraction.
Adding an electron to Helium makes a helium ion - not lithium.
To get another element, you have to add protons.

Thus neutral lithium has three protons and three electrons.

The electrons only shield the nucleus when seen from afar. Which is most situations.
Some atoms can have more electrons than they have protons. This is not "most situations".
Because the proton electric field goes everywhere, it is not always screened from nearby charges.
The presence of the electrons does not use up the positive charge from the nucleus but they do make the "outer" electron more weakly attracted than the inner ones.

From a long way away, the already weak attraction is so weak that quite small energies can overcome the attraction.

Careful though: this is very hand-wavey.
The details come from quantum mechanics.
 
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