News The girl who was stoned to death for falling in love

AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers on the troubling rise of honor killings in Iraq, particularly following the fall of Saddam Hussein, which has led to increased visibility of such acts due to modern technology. Participants note that while these killings are often attributed to fundamentalist beliefs, they are deeply rooted in cultural practices rather than religious doctrine. The conversation highlights the challenges of establishing a stable democracy in Iraq, where tribal affiliations and conservative attitudes can undermine women's rights and freedoms. There is a consensus that the internet plays a crucial role in exposing these brutal acts, potentially fostering change. Ultimately, the dialogue underscores the complexity of Iraq's societal issues and the need for a deeper understanding of the cultural factors at play.
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...This act of medieval savagery took place last month in a town in northern Iraq, in the fledgling 'democracy' created by Bush and Blair when they invaded the country in 2003 and 'freed' its people.

...The filming of Du'a's death was just one more macabre element of her killing, but it has achieved something those bloodthirsty amateur filmmakers could not have predicted: it has brought such practices into the open and exposed them to the wider world. [continued]
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=455400&in_page_id=1879

So, we were going to make this place a democractic society? Did the men throwing the stones and filming with their cell phones vote?

Thanks to the internet, once it gets out, news like this spreads around the world like a wildfire. I suspect that this will act as a greater force for change than any bomb ever could.
 
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This is a very common occurrence in fundamentalist Muslim areas. What probably separates this from the thousands that happen a year in other muslim countries is the fact that with new-found freedom, it should happen less than it used to. But until the country becomes stable, the pockets of hardcore fundamentalism will have more ability to harm those who dare exercise their new-found freedom.

The United Nations Population Fund estimates that the annual worldwide total of honor-killing victims may be as high as 5,000 women.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing
 
russ_watters said:
This is a very common occurrence in fundamentalist Muslim areas. What probably separates this from the thousands that happen a year in other muslim countries is the fact that with new-found freedom, it should happen less than it used to. But until the country becomes stable, the pockets of hardcore fundamentalism will have more ability to harm those who dare exercise their new-found freedom.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing
Iraq wasn't 'a fundamentalist muslim area' under Saddam :rolleyes:
 
It's not just killings. In Pakistan and parts of India women who reject a suitor may be attacked with battery acid, mutilating their faces. That way they are not likely to be married off, and will remain a "burden" on their families (women are not highly prized in some places) while they face social isolation and physical suffering. It's sickening what some peoples' value systems will allow them to do in the name of "honor".
 
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Art said:
Iraq wasn't 'a fundamentalist muslim area' under Saddam :rolleyes:
It most certainly was. Saddam kept an iron fist on it, but these people didn't move there after Saddam left, they were already there.
 
http://www.peacewomen.org/news/Iraq/May05/honour.html

May 17, 2005 - (IWPR'S Iraqi Crisis Report No. 125) Faeq Ameen Bakr, director general of Baghdad's Institute of Forensic Medicine in Baghdad, often writes "killed to wash away her disgrace" in the many autopsy reports and investigations that cross his desk.

The number of so-called honour killings - where a woman is killed by family members because they believe she has in some way shamed them - is said to have increased in Iraq since the fall of Saddam Hussein.

Iraq is a tribal society where honour killings are an accepted practice, but cases have been increasing because conservative attitudes have grown.

They were there, but Hussein didn't let them run the place by any means. There's a difference between having fundamentalists in an area, and being a fundamentalist area
 
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Office_Shredder said:
They were there, but Hussein didn't let them run the place by any means. There's a difference between having fundamentalists in an area, and being a fundamentalist area
That's a fair distinction. Now that people in Iraq have a non-existent central government, their tribal and religious affiliations are paramount, and the power of the fundamentalists has increased dramatically. Under Saddam, women had the right to be educated and hold jobs and participate as citizens. This is pretty rare in some Muslim countries.
 
russ_watters said:
But until the country becomes stable, the pockets of hardcore fundamentalism will have more ability to harm those who dare exercise their new-found freedom.

I think we have more than "pockets" to worry about...which is why we can't get stability.

Apparently security forces were looking on while this happened.
 
In order to enjoy the liberties of freedom, a society must first understand tolerance. I think the problem in Iraq is that we have pockets of tolerance.
 
  • #10
Ivan Seeking said:
In order to enjoy the liberties of freedom, a society must first understand tolerance.
Hear, hear!

Although apparently this is expecting too much.
 
  • #12
This story just made me plain sick. These are probably the most grotesque faces of humanity I have seen to date.
The story begs the question, who's honour is it that they are trying to protect here?
If killing your own daughter, watching her being sexually assaulted and stoned to death restores your dignity or your daughter's, I don't think any amount of liberation or freedom can help .

Postmortem reports by medical "professionals" state "killed to wash away her disgrace", checking for viginity to restore some grace, and a maximum sentence of 6 months if found guilty?! WTF is the matter with these people!

I hope there is a follow up to the article regarding what action was taken against the murderers especially after there is so much irrefutable evidence.
 
  • #13
Goes to show that Iraq's problems are way too deeply imbibed for any force to solve them.
 
  • #14
russ_watters said:
It most certainly was. Saddam kept an iron fist on it, but these people didn't move there after Saddam left, they were already there.
Actually yes they did move there after Saddam fell. Many had fled to Iran to avoid Saddam and have since returned and others are the foreign fighters who have entered from Saudi Arabia and the like also since the fall of Saddam.

As I said in another thread one wonders if the US are fighting on the right side. The Ba'ath party under a new leader would it seems have been a much better option rather than allowing the Shi'ite fundamentalists to gain power regardless of whether they did it democratically or not.
 
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  • #15
The Shi'ite majority was in place before Saddam fell. The Sunni minority was in place before Saddam fell, though a number of them were forced out of holdings that they were given after the suppression (murder, expatriation, ethnic cleansing) of the Kurds. This is not a simple problem with a simple solution. The Iranians don't want hostile Sunnis on their borders, and the Saudis do not want Shi'ites to control Iraq, and both are exerting influence there. The Bushies loudly decry any Iranian influence, and ignore any Saudi influence on the side of the Sunnis. News by press-release is almost always propaganda and is always misleading, and intentionally so. The practice of "embedding" reporters with military units gives the DOD control over what the journalists see, what they can report on, and ultimately, what we US citizens are allowed to know about the disposition of a war that is not going well.
 
  • #16
Wait for it. We're witnessing a burgeoning New Iran.
 
  • #17
Just to let you guys know, Islam has nothing to do with these types of killings, in fact, it condemns them. They're purely cultural and have existed in Arab/Indian areas for hundreds of years, even before Islam. Yes, adultery is punished with stoning, but that goes for both males and females. I don't think that that was this woman's crime though.

Of course, a lot of ignorant people try to say that this happens only in Muslim countries and so it has to do with Islam somehow. Honour killings also occur a lot with Hindus/Sikhs in India. Also, if you look at other Muslim areas, such as those in Africa and Europe, you'll find that there aren't any.

The media obviously tries to use these honour killings to attack Islam.
 
  • #18
oroboro said:
Just to let you guys know, Islam has nothing to do with these types of killings, in fact, it condemns them. They're purely cultural and have existed in Arab/Indian areas for hundreds of years, even before Islam. Yes, adultery is punished with stoning, but that goes for both males and females. I don't think that that was this woman's crime though.

Of course, a lot of ignorant people try to say that this happens only in Muslim countries and so it has to do with Islam somehow. Honour killings also occur a lot with Hindus/Sikhs in India. Also, if you look at other Muslim areas, such as those in Africa and Europe, you'll find that there aren't any.

The media obviously tries to use these honour killings to attack Islam.

Hopefully these primative practices will never stand the light of day - the world scrutiny made possible by the internet.

Here, we shoot em, hang em, electricute em, inject em, or in the case of adultery in particular, impeach em, but we are civilized about it. :biggrin:
 
  • #19
Just to let you guys know, Islam has nothing to do with these types of killings, in fact, it condemns them.

Their literature might condemn it, but a noticeable percentage of their people don't.

Of course, a lot of ignorant people try to say that this happens only in Muslim countries and so it has to do with Islam somehow. Honour killings also occur a lot with Hindus/Sikhs in India.

And that makes it okay for Muslim countries? Because it happens in India, it makes the fact that it happens in Muslim countries more acceptable?

The media obviously tries to use these honour killings to attack Islam.

No, they do a good job of it themselves. I mean, unless you can prove the media made that story up.

Because when I browse the news, I don't usually hear about Buddhist fundamentalists stoning women to death, flying airplanes into buildings, and finding new ways to kill Americans, Brits and Jews. Nor do I usually see Mormons in Utah waging unending and violent wars with rival religions.

But hey, who knows, you might be right, maybe all of that stuff is the medias fault.
 
  • #20
Dagenais said:
Their literature might condemn it, but a noticeable percentage of their people don't.
Can you give some facts please? How do you know most Muslims don't condemn such actions?

Dagenais said:
And that makes it okay for Muslim countries? Because it happens in India, it makes the fact that it happens in Muslim countries more acceptable?
It seems that you either misread what I wrote or for some reason do not understand. What that means is that honour killings are culturally motivated, not religiously.

Dagenais said:
No, they do a good job of it themselves. I mean, unless you can prove the media made that story up.
I did not say that the media made it up. I don't get how you don't understand what I wrote as I'm sure that it is in perfectly good English. I said that the media uses them to attack Islam, though Islam has nothing to do with it.

Dagenais said:
Because when I browse the news, I don't usually hear about Buddhist fundamentalists stoning women to death, flying airplanes into buildings, and finding new ways to kill Americans, Brits and Jews. Nor do I usually see Mormons in Utah waging unending and violent wars with rival religions.
Obviously you only do know what the media tells you and haven't even bothered to research the facts, so I'm not going to bother arguing with you. All I ask is that you try to understand Islam first before hating it. I though Westerners were supposed to be open minded...

Also note that I'm not trying to justify the murder. All I'm saying is that contrary to common belief, Islam does not subjugate women (actually it tries to protect them). That is fact and can be easily found if one actually studies Islam and does not look at the Muslim world as it is now (as many have deviated quite a bit).

All I wanted to do was clear a common misconception and I'm attacked. I thought those of us in the West were supposed to be tolerant.
 
  • #21
oroboro said:
Can you give some facts please? How do you know most Muslims don't condemn such actions?

Exactly, HOW DO WE KNOW? Because we don't see it! Where is the Muslim outrage? Where is the condemnation by those who practice Islam?? Facts please?


oroboro said:
I did not say that the media made it up. I don't get how you don't understand what I wrote as I'm sure that it is in perfectly good English. I said that the media uses them to attack Islam, though Islam has nothing to do with it.

On the contrary, the media is very silent about Islame extremism. They don't want to "offend" anyone. The rarely point out when something is carried out in the name of Islam in order to appear politically correct.

oroboro said:
I though Westerners were supposed to be open minded...

Open minded, yes, but with this crap we draw the line.

oroboro said:
I thought those of us in the West were supposed to be tolerant.

Tolerant of what, exactly? How can you come on this post and "think" or even suggest that any human being with a sense of humanity is going to tolerate this kind of brutality, inhumanity, intolerant behavior?

Good luck getting sympathy from the Westerners when we see no one stepping into help save this defenseless young womans life.
 
  • #22
drankin said:
Exactly, HOW DO WE KNOW? Because we don't see it! Where is the Muslim outrage? Where is the condemnation by those who practice Islam?? Facts please?
Just because you do not "see", it does not mean that it is out there. Almost all scholars would condemn such an act and many speak out against it. Same thing goes for 9/11. Many Muslims expressed outrage but the media did not bother to put them on the news. Instead, they went for a few radical fools who don't know what they're talking about.

I don't want to get into this further as I can see that it will simply be pointless as it would just continue on forever.

Please, just study what Islam teaches and not those who supposedly practice it. What you are doing is simply looking at the Muslim world in the state that it is in and inferring conclusions. Don't just listen to the media or search for information on the Internet. Try to visit your local mosque (though I cannot guarantee what kind of people you will find there) and ask for some books about Islam.

Islam is not what it seems, and many people, including you, have huge misconceptions about it. The only people that I ever find who do not have these misconceptions are people well versed in history.

Sorry for being hostile in the previous post though.
 
  • #23
I know as a christian I'd hate it if other religions thought Bush's actions typified and represented mainstream christianity which I think is the point oroboro was making.

BTW although this is undoubtedly a vile act I can't help but wonder where is the outrage and condemnation from the 'more civilized' westerners of the dozens of Iraqi (muslim) civilians being killed monthly in the new air campaign being waged in Iraq?
A second U.S. Navy aircraft carrier on station since February in the Persian Gulf has added some 80 warplanes to the U.S. air arsenal in the region.

At the same time, the number of civilian Iraqi casualties from U.S. airstrikes appears to have risen sharply, according to Iraq Body Count, a London-based, anti-war research group that maintains a database compiling news media reports on Iraqi war deaths.

The rate of such reported civilian deaths appeared to climb steadily through 2006, the group reports, averaging just a few a month in early 2006, hitting some 40 a month by year's end, and averaging more than 50 a month so far this year.
but apparently this is okay because
Air Force Col. Gary Crowder, deputy director of the regional air operations center, said such casualties "pale in comparison" with civilian casualties from ground combat.
http://www.theeagle.com/stories/060607/world_20070606025.php

To quote an old adage 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone' or at the very least let's be consistant in our condemnation before adopting a holier than thou attitude.
 
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  • #24
oroboro said:
Just because you do not "see", it does not mean that it is out there. Almost all scholars would condemn such an act and many speak out against it. Same thing goes for 9/11. Many Muslims expressed outrage but the media did not bother to put them on the news. Instead, they went for a few radical fools who don't know what they're talking about.

I don't want to get into this further as I can see that it will simply be pointless as it would just continue on forever.

Please, just study what Islam teaches and not those who supposedly practice it. What you are doing is simply looking at the Muslim world in the state that it is in and inferring conclusions. Don't just listen to the media or search for information on the Internet. Try to visit your local mosque (though I cannot guarantee what kind of people you will find there) and ask for some books about Islam.

Islam is not what it seems, and many people, including you, have huge misconceptions about it. The only people that I ever find who do not have these misconceptions are people well versed in history.

Sorry for being hostile in the previous post though.

I believe there is some truth to what you are saying. But I don't believe the Muslim community is trying very hard to be heard. If they wanted too, they could do something and the media would listen. There is no way the media would ignore a peace march (for example) by American Muslims that was specifically against terrorism. Which makes us wonder if a majority of the Muslim community silently sympathizes with terrorism.
 
  • #25
Art said:
I know as a christian I'd hate it if other religions thought Bush's actions typified and represented mainstream christianity which I think is the point oroboro was making.

BTW although this is undoubtedly a vile act I can't help but wonder where is the outrage and condemnation of the dozens of Iraqi civilians being killed monthly in the new air campaign being waged in Iraq? but apparently this is okay because http://www.theeagle.com/stories/060607/world_20070606025.php

To quote an old adage 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone' or at the very least let's be consistant in our condemnation before adopting a holier than thou attitude.

Art, I believe there is a clear distinction between actions of war by military means and actions of civilian community on a street corner.
 
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  • #26
drankin said:
Art, I believe there is a clear distinction between actions of war by military means and actions of civilian community on a street corner.
Not to the victims there's not.

And fyi there is no war in Iraq. Bush formally declared an end to hostilities in May 2003. Since then the US are supposed to have been involved in a policing action which is supposed to be managed by a completely different set of rules with far higher standards relating to 'duty of care' than the Laws of War.
 
  • #27
Art said:
Not to the victims there's not.

And fyi there is no war in Iraq. Bush formally declared an end to hostilities in May 2003. Since then the US are supposed to have been involved in a policing action which is supposed to be managed by a completely different set of rules with far higher standards relating to 'duty of care' than the Laws of War.

I'm not buying it, Art. And the topic is getting side-tracked.
 
  • #28
drankin said:
I'm not buying it, Art. And the topic is getting side-tracked.
The point is it is as ridiculous to blame Islam and denounce 1 billion people for the actions of a few crazed fundamentalists as it would be to blame christianity for the actions of a few crazed but powerful zealots.
 
  • #29
Art said:
The point is it is as ridiculous to blame Islam and denounce 1 billion people for the actions of a few crazed fundamentalists as it would be to blame christianity for the actions of a few crazed but powerful zealots.

I get that.

It's just that when you see this stuff via cell phone video on a street corner of what appears to be a community activity, it makes you wonder. I want to believe that Islam is as peaceful as your other major religions liken to Christainity, Hindu, Buddhism (pretty much the biggies). I plan on doing a study of the Koran eventually in order to have an accurate reference. Civilians stoning helpless women on the streets with jeering onlookers just doesn't paint a good picture for me.

(Please do not bring up the early history of the Catholic church. It doesn't qualify in this day and age.)
 
  • #30
drankin said:
I get that.

It's just that when you see this stuff via cell phone video on a street corner of what appears to be a community activity, it makes you wonder. I want to believe that Islam is as peaceful as your other major religions liken to Christainity, Hindu, Buddhism (pretty much the biggies). I plan on doing a study of the Koran eventually in order to have an accurate reference. Civilians stoning helpless women on the streets with jeering onlookers just doesn't paint a good picture for me.

(Please do not bring up the early history of the Catholic church. It doesn't qualify in this day and age.)
I won't bring up the catholic church and 'rum, sodomy and the lash' :biggrin: as my contention is that like oroboro I believe religion has little or nothing to do with these heinous acts. It's twisted social values that are to blame; religion is just the fall guy.

Not so long back black folk in western society were treated in a way which would be considered shocking today but social norms of the day made it seem acceptable at the time with again the worst excesses being cloaked in the mantle of christianity.

Religion is truly the last refuge of the scoundrel.
 
  • #31
drankin said:
I get that.

It's just that when you see this stuff via cell phone video on a street corner of what appears to be a community activity, it makes you wonder. I want to believe that Islam is as peaceful as your other major religions liken to Christainity, Hindu, Buddhism (pretty much the biggies). I plan on doing a study of the Koran eventually in order to have an accurate reference. Civilians stoning helpless women on the streets with jeering onlookers just doesn't paint a good picture for me.
As Art and oroboro have been saying, the point is that, whatever the source you get your information about these events, whatever the level of overreporting of incidents like this, they don't represent the majority view in Islam, and you can't reasonably extrapolate from them that all Muslims are religious zealots who kill women with stones for things like this.

Get back to us when your plans come through and you study the Koran, or when you talk to a few Muslims.

(Please do not bring up the early history of the Catholic church. It doesn't qualify in this day and age.)
Here's an example. I would imagine that you wouldn't want all of Christianity based on the actions of the so called "Christian" Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. Am I right? Or is that also too long ago for you?
 
  • #32
drankin said:
Good luck getting sympathy from the Westerners when we see no one stepping into help save this defenseless young womans life.
Think about that for a minute. Would you step into help her? This could be the same reason why you don't see many public protests when this sort of thing happens.

The western version of tolerance is a one-sided perspective. We tend to think in terms of what we would do, or what we believe is proper. It's easy to sit on a moral high-horse and say 'this is right and that is wrong.' We are full of pity for the world, and so convinced that we are doing good deeds, that we rarely stop to think if someone minds being considered pitiful by people who don't even bother to understand their perspective.

Very few westerners would have done anything if they were in that crowd. Most would have watched that woman be stoned to death without ever saying a word. Some would have taken a photograph so they could show their friends how barbaric life in the Middle-East can be. Overall, our reactions would have been much the same as the people who live there every day of their lives, but somehow we have the idea that we are more civilized individuals. We can even villify the religion of a billion people based on the actions of tyrants, terrorists and a few cruel people, as if those kinds of things don't happen where we live.
 
  • #33
The point is it is as ridiculous to blame Islam and denounce 1 billion people for the actions of a few crazed fundamentalists as it would be to blame christianity for the actions of a few crazed but powerful zealots.

Maybe if those few crazed fundamentalists thought about how their actions would represent their religion (or race/culture), they wouldn't act in such ways.

Unless you can show me some videos of a Buddhist based terrorist organization letting bombs off and killing numerous innocent civilians?

See, nobody said "all muslims act like this." We're just saying it's dumb to deny that Islam has more violent followers and a more violent track record than that of Buddhists. Even when it came down to political protests, Buddhist Monks poured oil and themselves, and burned themselves - not other innocent lives. They don't attempt to hijack the next 747 and crash it into a city "in the name of Buddha," See the difference?

Almost all scholars would condemn such an act and many speak out against it.

And scholars represent the entirety of Muslim followers? You could look at the select few of the most educated in any society, and get the impression that that society is intelligent and thoughtful.

Fortunately, the rest of us know better and realize that a society, or in this case, followers of a religion are made of more than just scholars.
Overall, our reactions would have been much the same as the people who live there every day of their lives, but somehow we have the idea that we are more civilized individuals.

I do like to think that I am more civilized than your everyday terrorist that mention Allah's name before blowing a city block up. But that's just my opinion. Maybe you think there equally civilized. But that could just be you.

The Chinese have a saying: one must always treat others just as one would want others to treat you. Virtue under Confucius is based upon harmony with other people.

If you were in that young women's situation, would you want someone to help you?

Think about that for a minute. Would you step into help her?

I wouldn't physically fight anyone over it because I'd be scared to get killed myself. But I guess that's what separates people like us from the heroes and those who have the bravery to change society for the better.
 
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  • #34
Dagenais said:
So you're into prognostication now? You're predicting how I would act if I were in that situation? I've been to many countries, and I act accordingly to their laws. But if something like that happens, I would expect to speak up. Would I go rambo and pick fights? Probably not. But I wouldn't do that where I live anyways. Doesn't mean I wouldn't say something.
I'm sorry if you thought I was referring to you. I wasn't. But if you think most people would risk their lives for the chance of saving someone they don't know, you're just wrong. That's one of the few things in my post that isn't prognostication.

I have no concept of what it is like to have people trying to kill me. I can not honestly say how I would react in an emotional state similar to hers. Thinking rationally I would say that it would probably be best if nobody helped me. They would probably only be injured or killed themselves and not accomplish anything but more suffering. Their interference could also cause reprisal at a later date from the police or other people who were participating. Their family could be threatened. I think it would be best for an individual to not become involved.

Would you want someone to help you, knowing that others would suffer and probably not to your benefit at all? I think most people, in the same circumstances, would say yes.

And scholars represent the entirety of Muslim followers? You could look at the select few of the most educated in any society, and get the impression that that society is intelligent and thoughtful.
See, nobody said "all muslims act like this." We're just saying it's dumb to deny that Islam has more violent followers and a more violent track record than that of Buddhists. Even when it came down to political protests, Buddhist Monks poured oil and themselves, and burned themselves - not other innocent lives. They don't attempt to hijack the next 747 and crash it into a city "in the name of Buddha," See the difference?

OK, here you are using the same argument in different ways so that the outcome benefits you. Which is it? Do the actions of a few justify judgement of many, or not? This suggests to me that you choose to see Islam as a violent religion because of the actions of a few, regardless of any enlightened acheivements of that religion.
 
  • #35
Ok, a young woman was stoned to death on a street corner. Apparently it happens all the time, it just so happened to be videod this time. Now, we in the West are riding our high horses and denouncing it. How dare us. Who do we think we are?

Give it up people. Wrong is wrong is wrong. I don't care what religion you are. I agree with Art that scoundrels often hide behind religion to justify hideous acts.

Here is a fact: there is only one other religion that could justify this kind of act and that is Judaism. It's probably been 100 if not a 1000+yrs since that community has openly stoned a woman in the streets.

Muslims need to denounce this kind of crap if they want their religion to be seriously accepted by the rest of civilization. Because what I saw on that video was not civilized and I am confident that the majority of humanity sees it the same way.
 
  • #36
drankin said:
Ok, a young woman was stoned to death on a street corner. Apparently it happens all the time, it just so happened to be videod this time. Now, we in the West are riding our high horses and denouncing it. How dare us. Who do we think we are?

Give it up people. Wrong is wrong is wrong. I don't care what religion you are. I agree with Art that scoundrels often hide behind religion to justify hideous acts.

Here is a fact: there is only one other religion that could justify this kind of act and that is Judaism. It's probably been 100 if not a 1000+yrs since that community has openly stoned a woman in the streets.

Muslims need to denounce this kind of crap if they want their religion to be seriously accepted by the rest of civilization. Because what I saw on that video was not civilized and I am confident that the majority of humanity sees it the same way.

Nobody has condoned the stoning of this woman. So far we all agree that it was wrong. What puts us on the high-horse is that we are condemning a religion for the actions of a small percentage of people who commit these acts. What makes us civilized is that we have a government that punishes people for acting this way. People in Iraq are familiar with a different type of government, and at the moment, don't have much of a government at all. How do you think this country would behave without a government? How would we feel about foreign soldiers in our streets enforcing the peace.

When the United States had a less powerful government we also had public killings, but instead of stoning people, we hung them or burned them. The last public execution was in 1936 and over 20'000 spectators showed up to watch the killing. The United States is known for its violence and we have a very high crime rate, yet we still consider ourselves more civilized. Iraqis don't live like we do. Why should we judge them as if they do?

The people who stoned this woman are just cruel people, regardless of what religion they are from. There are cruel people in every religion. A religion should be judged based on its doctrine and not on the actions of cruel people who claim to act on it's behalf. A person should be judged for their actions and not their religion.
 
  • #37
I think that one must realize that morality is a changeable certainly between different cultures and throughout time. Of course we can be outraged at something we perceive as cruel but one must realize that to these people brought up where they were their actions are perfectly justified. We must also realize that because morals change throughout time that hopefully attitudes in this region will change because the rest of the world condems it.

On the religion front, people have used it to justify some absolutely hideous acts throughout history. But beyond a certain point in societies religion stops dictating moral standards and they seem to progress independently. This comes as people realize they can't rely on something that can be interpreted many different ways and they must take responsibility for themselves by crystalising rules.
 
  • #38
Huck said:
The last public execution was in 1936 and over 20'000 spectators showed up to watch the killing.
That would be the last government sanctioned execution I believe.

One key point in the article - this atrocity occurred "at the hands of a lynch mob", although police apparently stood by and did nothing to intervene. I believe lynchings in the US occurred into the 1960's, especially in the south, where local governments (all white) were hostile to African Americans who sought equal rights and participation in the political system.

Consider - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Rights_Movement_(1896-1954)#Disfranchisement

June 21, 1964
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_Civil_Rights_Workers_Murders

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_American_Civil_Rights_Movement#1960_-_1969

So one could argue, if the US moved away from those problems, why not Iraq, with a little help from Bush?

The Sunnis and Yezidis hate each other. When Du'a ran away with her Sunni boyfriend, a sentence of death was passed on her.
. . . .

The Yezidis (a Gnostic sect) despise the Sunnis; the Sunnis loathe the Yezidis.
. . . .

Police officers stand idly by, some of them apparently enjoying the spectacle as much as anyone else.

Meanwhile, some observers film the execution on their mobile phones -
. . . .

Meanwhile, the cycle of tit-for-tat murders continues in Iraq. In this instance, in an apparent act of retaliation for Du'a's murder, 23 Yezidi workers were attacked and killed two weeks later, apparently by members of an armed Sunni group.

The men were traveling on a bus between Mosul and Bashika when their vehicle was halted by the gunmen, who made them disembark before killing them.
. . . .

Under Iraqi law, the punishment for anyone found guilty of an honour killing is just six months in prison.
Well, then there are the hostilities between Sunni and Shii.

While there are many Iraqis who wish for a more peaceful and democractic society (with liberty, fairness and justice implicit), there are many others tied to the old tribal ways, which go contrary to democratic principles.

How will the Sunni, Shii, Yezidi, Kurds, . . . . overcome the old cultural ways which allow for such acts as 'honor killing'? Will they ever?

How will the world deal with such cultural contradictions?
 
  • #39
A related news story from Iran:

Group cleared over Iran murders

The accused men believed they were allowed to kill immoral people


By Frances Harrison
April 16, 2007

TEHRAN (BBC NEWS) — Iran’s Supreme Court has acquitted a group of men charged over a series of gruesome killings in 2002, according to lawyers for the victims’ families.

The vigilantes were not guilty because their victims were involved in un-Islamic activities, the court found.

The killers said they believed Islam let them spill the blood of anyone engaged in illicit activities if they issued two warnings to the victims.

The serial killings took place in 2002 in the south-eastern city of Kerman.

‘Morally corrupt’

...

According to their confessions, the killers put some of their victims in pits and stoned them to death. Others were suffocated. One man was even buried alive while others had their bodies dumped in the desert to be eaten by wild animals.

The accused, who were all members of an Islamic paramilitary force, told the court their understanding of the teachings of one Islamic cleric allowed them to kill immoral people if they had ignored two warnings to stop their bad behaviour.

But there was no judicial process to determine the guilt of the victims in these cases.
...

Now the Supreme Court is reported to have acquitted all the killers of the charge of murder on the grounds that their victims were all morally corrupt.

Some of the group may, however, face prison sentences or have to pay financial compensation to their victims’ families.
http://peeringintodarkness.com/ctd/?cat=53

In Iran, if you kill someone for un-Islamic behavior, you will not be punished by the law, unless the victim is proven to have not engaged in said behavior. In the latter case, with a successful defense of mistaken identity, the perpetrator is required to pay a sum of money to the family of the victim as punishment/compensation.

It's a system where, among other things, murder can be legally bought for a sum of money.
 
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  • #40
Gokul43201 said:
In Iran, if you kill someone for un-Islamic behavior, you will not be punished by the law, unless the victim is proven to have not engaged in said behavior. In the latter case, with a successful defense of mistaken identity, the perpetrator is required to pay a sum of money to the family of the victim as punishment/compensation.

It's a system where, among other things, murder can be legally bought for a sum of money.
And Bush and others expect to change Iraq just like that?? And Iraq is supposed to just transform into a Western style society with a democratic government and friendly ties to US and the West? And success is just around the next bend?

Bush failed back in March 2003.
 
  • #41
If you read your bible you will find that the marriage bed is supposed to be examined for evidence of prior virginity, and if absent, the bride is to be stoned. however this practice, although sanctioned and even required, by "god's" word, is not practiced to my knowledge in most christian countries.

according to a woman who heads an organization for womens rights in iraq, interviewed on pbs last week, the recent extreme subjugation of women in iraq nbhds is indeed a political expression. namely the radical group controlling a specific area demonstrate this by forcing the women in that area not only to wear burkhas, but to wear ones which reveal allegiance to a particular sect. this is shown by the style of the veil. as she put it, they have no concern whatsoever for the woman under that veil.

there are indeed serious crimes against humanity going on, and all of us who do not speak out against them are guilty in the eyes of god and man. to defend islam for not having invented suppression of women and yet practicing it is missing the point, just as those of us who fail to condemn the US for killing innocent people miss the point.

the idea is to stop it, not to place or reject blame for it. I also fail to hear virtually any outcry from the muslim community against terro, but ia lso fail to see much real outcry against this unholy war, almost the first in history by the US without provocation or real reason of any kind except egotism of the president.

i for one have not seen too many big marches for peace here in the US, although a few demonstrations have occurred. I also think when they do occur they are minimized by the media, or i would have noticed them more. this also occurred in the vietnam era, but the message eventuallty got out to most citizens.

i recall being at a vast march on washington in the 60's where the official count was far below the actual number, and the news media ignored tens and even hundreds of thousands of middle class parents and soccer moms to film a few radical nutcases in black pajamas with vietcong flags.
 
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  • #42
what do you make of the recent political swap wherein bush treatened to veto healthcare for poor american children unless his war continued to be funded without deadlines, and the democrats accepted it?

the current debate over the war, although it includes voices against, seems to me not as much about saving lives, but about winning votes and political power. any ideas on how to proceed more effectively?recent news that those setting roadside bombs and carrying out kidnappings in iraq are often actually iraqi policemen, not militia, is troubling too.
 
  • #43
mathwonk said:
If you read your bible you will find that the marriage bed is supposed to be examined for evidence of prior virginity, and if absent, the bride is to be stoned. however this practice, although sanctioned and even required, by "god's" word, is not practiced to my knowledge in most christian countries.

mathwonk, this statement false and misleading. You obviously know little about these religions. You are talking about Judaism, not Christianity. It is not the doctrine of Christianity to follow the Old Testament "laws" of Judaism. If you are actually interested in what the differences are and why, PM me.

Though I don't agree much with the rest of your post, I see your point.
 
  • #44
Dagenais said:
And scholars represent the entirety of Muslim followers? You could look at the select few of the most educated in any society, and get the impression that that society is intelligent and thoughtful.

Fortunately, the rest of us know better and realize that a society, or in this case, followers of a religion are made of more than just scholars.
In the Islamic community, Scholars are leaders and are those who have studied Islam thoroughly. Out of uneducated (in Islam) non-practicing Muslims and well educated scholars, the scholars are obviously the most representative of Islam. Though yes, the Muslim world is doing a bad job representing Islam.

And you've got to understand what is actually going on in the Islamic world before you start jumping to conclusions. Those of you who say that the Muslims of the world need to stand up and stop such actions simply do not understand what is actually going on.

The Muslim world is in a very weak state, in terms of religion. What most of you don't get it seems, is that many Muslims are only Muslim by name, that is, they do not practice Islam at all or very little. It is not Islam that causes honour killings, it is the absence of Islam; without Islam, these people revert to culture and old traditions. These honour killings are exactly what they are, murders done because the victim dishonoured the family. Where people got the idea that these somehow come from religion I do not know.

Yes, most Muslims would condemn such an act, and no, you're not going to get huge demonstrations against such wrong doings because the entire Muslim world is in disarray. Most of them don't even practice Islam at all.

Hopefully this is the last time I state this:
Islam has nothing to do with honour killings

As for the "violence", I'm not even going to bother. All that I say is please study Islam and hadith before you jump to conclusions based on the actions of a few lunatics and information from propaganda sources. If you truly wish to understand something, you'd look at it from all possible sides.
 
  • #45
Ah yes, let us agree that belief in complete and utter nonsense is a fundamentally virtuous and uplifting thing, shall we?
 
  • #46
oroboro said:
In the Islamic community, Scholars are leaders and are those who have studied Islam thoroughly. Out of uneducated (in Islam) non-practicing Muslims and well educated scholars, the scholars are obviously the most representative of Islam. Though yes, the Muslim world is doing a bad job representing Islam.

And you've got to understand what is actually going on in the Islamic world before you start jumping to conclusions. Those of you who say that the Muslims of the world need to stand up and stop such actions simply do not understand what is actually going on.

The Muslim world is in a very weak state, in terms of religion. What most of you don't get it seems, is that many Muslims are only Muslim by name, that is, they do not practice Islam at all or very little. It is not Islam that causes honour killings, it is the absence of Islam; without Islam, these people revert to culture and old traditions. These honour killings are exactly what they are, murders done because the victim dishonoured the family. Where people got the idea that these somehow come from religion I do not know.

Yes, most Muslims would condemn such an act, and no, you're not going to get huge demonstrations against such wrong doings because the entire Muslim world is in disarray. Most of them don't even practice Islam at all.

Hopefully this is the last time I state this:
Islam has nothing to do with honour killings

As for the "violence", I'm not even going to bother. All that I say is please study Islam and hadith before you jump to conclusions based on the actions of a few lunatics and information from propaganda sources. If you truly wish to understand something, you'd look at it from all possible sides.


Ah, thank you for the insight. Like I said, I don't want to believe that Islam condones this kind of thing. Most people who claim to be Christian do not actually practice Christianity, so I see the paralell. It must simply be human nature to claim a faith but not actually practice it and even be ignorant of its doctrine. Your post makes complete sense to me.
 
  • #47
In the Islamic community, Scholars are leaders and are those who have studied Islam thoroughly. Out of uneducated (in Islam) non-practicing Muslims and well educated scholars, the scholars are obviously the most representative of Islam.

Sorry, I judge a race, religion, culture, or country by looking at the entire sum of its parts. See, unlike you, I don't look at the houses in Beverly Hills and assume that "Everyone in the US is doing great." I don't take the best, and assume that that's it, that that's all there is to that culture.

I don't assume that just because a religion condemns violence by written doctrine (and which widespread legal religion doesn't?) means that all their followers do to.

Maybe if you judged a culture holistically, you would be less ignorant of the problems.

What most of you don't get it seems, is that many Muslims are only Muslim by name, that is, they do not practice Islam at all or very little

Nobody can live a life and follow a religion perfectly right down to the holy doctrines. The fact is that there are more violent Muslim radicals than there are radicals of other widespread religions.

You notice how Buddhists don't have to defend their beliefs because their followers and organizations don't wreck international havoc? This has never occurred to you? Why there happens to be slightly more negative connotations to the world "Muslim" than "Buddhist"?

It has a lot more to do than a couple bad seeds during the decade.

And we already went through the fact that the majority of Muslims are peaceful people. Enough with that, this point was brought up and accepted at the beginning of the conversation. It doesn't have to be said in every single post, when frankly, nobody disagrees with it.

The fact remains that an alarming rate of people from your culture have caused a great deal of violence - more than Buddhists, more than Taoists (the list could go on). And you think countries like China has never been "in disarray"? The big problem here is that you think Muslim culture should not take any responsibility, when the people that commit these acts come from Muslim nations. Luckily, not everyone is in the same state of blind denial: http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=148

See, maybe if more Muslims, such as yourself, took the example above, started taking responsibility, and said, "Yes, we do have a tragic history of violence. More so than a lot of other religions, we many violent radicals. We need to stop these people, we need to make some changes", something positive might happen.

Instead, people like you go, "No, they're not Muslim. Not our problem. They don't represent us." While you completely ignore that it's natural to judge a religious culture with its believers. And they, if asked, would say they are Muslim. And religions are judged by all their people, not just the scholars, but the sum of their parts.

Yes, most Muslims would condemn such an act, and no, you're not going to get huge demonstrations against such wrong doings because the entire Muslim world is in disarray.

Whose fault is that? Let me guess - not Islam, not its believers, not the state - it's someone else's fault.

All that I say is please study Islam and hadith before you jump to conclusions based on the actions of a few lunatics and information from propaganda sources. If you truly wish to understand something, you'd look at it from all possible sides.

The problem here is that I do see it from all sides. And I already said that the majority of Muslims aren't violent, but the fact is that there are enough of them to cause international panic. The fact that you can't admit this shows you're the one with the problems seeing the brutal truth.Fortunately for society, there are Muslims out there who do accept responsibility. Even if denying it would be so much easier, and taking responsibility so much tougher.
http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=148
 
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  • #48
Dagenais said:
Sorry, I judge a race, religion, culture, or country by looking at the entire sum of its parts. See, unlike you, I don't look at the houses in Beverly Hills and assume that "Everyone in the US is doing great." I don't take the best, and assume that that's it, that that's all there is to that culture.

I don't assume that just because a religion condemns violence by written doctrine (and which widespread legal religion doesn't?) means that all their followers do to.

Maybe if you judged a culture holistically, you would be less ignorant of the problems.



Nobody can live a life and follow a religion perfectly right down to the holy doctrines. The fact is that there are more violent Muslim radicals than there are radicals of other widespread religions.

You notice how Buddhists don't have to defend their beliefs because their followers and organizations don't wreck international havoc? This has never occurred to you? Why there happens to be slightly more negative connotations to the world "Muslim" than "Buddhist"?

It has a lot more to do than a couple bad seeds during the decade.

And we already went through the fact that the majority of Muslims are peaceful people. Enough with that, this point was brought up and accepted at the beginning of the conversation. It doesn't have to be said in every single post, when frankly, nobody disagrees with it.

The fact remains that an alarming rate of people from your culture have caused a great deal of violence - more than Buddhists, more than Taoists (the list could go on). And you think countries like China has never been "in disarray"?


The big problem here is that you think Muslim culture should not take any responsibility, when the people that commit these acts come from Muslim nations. Luckily, not everyone is in the same state of blind denial: http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=148

See, maybe if more Muslims, such as yourself, took the example above, started taking responsibility, and said, "Yes, we do have a tragic history of violence. More so than a lot of other religions, we many violent radicals. We need to stop these people, we need to make some changes", something positive might happen.

Instead, people like you go, "No, they're not Muslim. Not our problem. They don't represent us." While you completely ignore that it's natural to judge a religious culture with its believers. And they, if asked, would say they are Muslim. And religions are judged by all their people, not just the scholars, but the sum of their parts.



Whose fault is that? Let me guess - not Islam, not its believers, not the state - it's someone else's fault.



The problem here is that I do see it from all sides. And I already said that the majority of Muslims aren't violent, but the fact is that there are enough of them to cause international panic. The fact that you can't admit this shows you're the one with the problems seeing the brutal truth.


Fortunately for society, there are Muslims out there who do accept responsibility. Even if denying it would be so much easier, and taking responsibility so much tougher.
http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=148
96% of Japanese are buddhist. One could write volumes about the aggressions and attrocities committed by the Japanese over the centuries up to and including WW2 so I think you have chosen a very poor example to bolster your argument re peace loving religions :rolleyes:

Another country with a very high percentage of buddhists is Myanmar. I suggest you check out their history right up to the current day to see what these peace loving buddhists do.

In fact by your logic it seems buddhists are all violent, evil people. Afterall when have buddhists publically apologised or demonstated against the excesses of their fellow buddhists? The absense of such protest must mean they condone these actions :rolleyes:

In terms of pure modern day terrorism I suggest you check out buddhist terrorism in Sri Lanka and southern Thailand.

The difference is of course when buddhists or any other religious grouping commits acts of terrorism they are given non-religious names such as for example the IRA who in their most recent 25 year campaign against Britain were never once referred to as catholic terrorists or christian terrorists. Nope it was always republican terrorists or just the IRA. Or the buddhist group 'Absolute Truth' who released sarin gas in the Tokyo underground; they were never once referred to in the media as buddhist terrorists.

It seems the religious identifying label is reserved strictly for terrorists who happen to be muslim which is why many muslims perceive the war on terror as being a pseudonym for a war on Islam.
 
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  • #49
Japanese Imperialism had nothing to do with Buddhism.
 
  • #50
drankin said:
Japanese Imperialism had nothing to do with Buddhism.
My point exactly :approve:
 
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