The GOD Delusion: Dawkins' Atheist Handbook

  • Thread starter Thread starter Cyrus
  • Start date Start date
AI Thread Summary
The discussion revolves around reading Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion" and other related works on atheism and naturalism. Participants express their views on Dawkins' thesis, which argues that the existence of the Judeo-Christian God is highly unlikely and not supported by modern science. There is debate about whether one can prove or disprove God's existence, with some asserting that Dawkins focuses primarily on biblical interpretations rather than a broader concept of God. The conversation also touches on the nature of belief and the challenges of addressing all forms of theism in a single work. Overall, the thread highlights the complexities of discussing religion and atheism in a philosophical context.
Cyrus
Messages
3,237
Reaction score
17
Since I have winter break, I have been trying to keep myself bussy. That means going to Barns n Noble and reading books for free. I saw The GOD Delusion by Dawkins, so I decided to buy it and am going to read it. Followed by:

god

is not
GREAT


, and the Atheist handbook. Anyone read any of these books?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
I have read the Dawkins and Hitchens ones. Other books of interest is the latest one by Victor Stenger "God: The Failed Hypothesis" and Richard Carrier's "Sense and Goodness without God: A Defense of Metaphysical Naturalism". The latter one is an excellent treatment of naturalism. Really a must-read, since it provides a complete explanation and defense of naturalism in virtually all areas between morality, free will, the brain and consciousness, method, epistemology etc.
 
Im only on page 2 of Dawkings right now. So far, so good!

I like the line about how you can't call somone a 'catholic child', or a 'muslim child', but rather a 'child of catholic or muslim parents' because a child is too young to know what religion he or she is, just as they don't know what political party they are. They were simply born into religion.
 
I read quite a bit of The GOD Delusion at Barnes n Noble once and I liked it. I don't know what else to say lol...
 
What I enjoyed most about Dawkins' book was the treatment of the origin of morality and religion, but I though that it was, overall, a quite readable book.
 
I'm reading the GOD Delusion right now, I saw it in chapters but didn't want to spend money on it so I got it from the library. It's good so far, I also liked the line about catholic children, muslim children...ect. There was another one I liked to but I can't think of it at the moment.
 
From what I saw at his [Dawkins] blog, his thesis is fundamentally flawed: One cannot prove that God does not exist.

Is this or is this not his objective; to prove that God does not exist? If it is then he flunks philosophy 101.
 
Ivan Seeking said:
From what I saw at his [Dawkins] blog, his thesis is fundamentally flawed: One cannot prove that God does not exist.

Is this or is this not his thesis; to prove that God does not exist? If it is then he flunks philosophy 101.

That is a common mistake. Religions make testable claims that can be refuted by science. Dawkins is talking about a certain version of the biblical God, not just a god.

His thesis is: The existence of the Judeo-Christian God is highly unlikely and there isn't really anything in modern science that supports it.
 
Moridin said:
That is a common mistake. Religions make testable claims that can be refuted by science. Dawkins is talking about a certain version of the biblical God, not just a god.

His thesis is: The existence of the Judeo-Christian God is highly unlikely and there isn't really anything in modern science that supports it.

So other gods are OK with him?
 
  • #10
I don't know, have not read the book yet, but maybe you should Ivan?
 
  • #11
Math Is Hard said:
So other gods are OK with him?

He doesn't really address them. He also says that his motive is not to provide a point-by-point refutation, because there are other books that tries to do that. He simply wants to make a conscious-raising book. It is basically about refuting classic creationism. Very little of the book is spent arguing against philosophical arguments.
 
  • #12
Math Is Hard said:
So other gods are OK with him?

Well, he's an atheist, so no.
 
  • #13
Cyrus said:
Well, he's an atheist, so no.

My question was a reply to this:

Moridin said:
That is a common mistake. Religions make testable claims that can be refuted by science. Dawkins is talking about a certain version of the biblical God, not just a god.

His thesis is: The existence of the Judeo-Christian God is highly unlikely and there isn't really anything in modern science that supports it.

Which makes it sound like there's only one particular God that Dawkins has a beef with. I asked because I don't think he likes the idea of a creator in any flavor. (I've read an essay by him and I've seen a film he hosted, but that's the extent of my knowledge on him.)
 
  • #14
Ivan Seeking said:
From what I saw at his [Dawkins] blog, his thesis is fundamentally flawed: One cannot prove that God does not exist.

Is this or is this not his objective; to prove that God does not exist? If it is then he flunks philosophy 101.

I agree with you Ivan. Just as one cannot prove the existence of God, one cannot disprove the existence of God either. This is what puts the subject outside the scientific realm. And my argument against scientific creationism is now summed up in two lines!:biggrin:
 
  • #15
Math Is Hard said:
My question was a reply to this:



Which makes it sound like there's only one particular God that Dawkins has a beef with. I asked because I don't think he likes the idea of a creator in any flavor. (I've read an essay by him and I've seen a film he hosted, but that's the extent of my knowledge on him.)

Indeed, Dawkins has the position that the existence of any god is currently highly unlikely, but his book only address the classic creationist one. To argue against all would require one to write an infinite amount of books.

G01 said:
I agree with you Ivan. Just as one cannot prove the existence of God, one cannot disprove the existence of God either. This is what puts the subject outside the scientific realm. And my argument against scientific creationism is now summed up in two lines!

You seem to be confusing God (generally defined as the biblical, literal one) with (a) god (ones personal view of it).

For instance, if we postulate a magical unicorn that violates the laws of physics in a specific way at a specific time at a specific place, this could, in principle, be disproven by science. (if the specific law was not violated, such a magical unicorn with those characteristics could not possibly exist). However, this does not mean that any magical unicorn does not exist. After all, science can refute, say, astrology, so claimed supernatural concepts are not somehow immune to scientific inquiry?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #16
Moridin said:
You seem to be confusing God (generally defined as the biblical, literal one) with (a) god (ones personal view of it).

For instance, if we postulate a magical unicorn that violates the laws of physics in a specific way at a specific time at a specific place, this could, in principle, be disproven by science. (if the specific law was not violated, such a magical unicorn with those characteristics could not possibly exist). However, this does not mean that any magical unicorn does not exist. After all, science can refute, say, astrology, so claimed supernatural concepts are not somehow immune to scientific inquiry.

(I am just playing Devil's Advocate here)

Here you are making the assumption that the laws of physics are absolute and immutable. While we assume that they are until shown counter-examples, we really don't know that they are. The being called God, if it exists, could be acting using other laws not yet discovered by the human race. So, God may not be breaking laws of physics, but working with the real ones.

(Again, just playing Devil's Advocate here. Hopefully, I'm not breaking any forum rules. I'm always a little worried when engaging in these type of discussions. I'm not supporting or advertising this point of view, just using it as an example of a counter argument to Moridin's.)

Anyway, this is a good example of a response to your point and shows how the subject of God is, by nature, unscientific. Thus one can't prove or disprove.
 
Last edited:
  • #17
Thus one can't prove or disprove.

I'm sorry, but repeating it does not make it true. :biggrin:

Even so, the result of the experiment would be considered evidence based on what we know right now (unless you are advocating Hume's critique of miracles). Let's take another example if you did not like my previous one.

A double-blind, controlled prayer experiment is set up with Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists (and a few others) and Atheists (for control) praying to their specific god or spirit. Somehow, all of the people the Catholics pray for magically get well (incurable diseases are cured, regrowing of severed limbs etc.) just like that. All the others do no better than chance. The experiment is repeated by independent groups and they all have the same results. This could, in principle, be considered strong evidence.

Let's take another one. It could be possible that given religious scripture that foretell a clear event (say, the murder of Indhra Ghandi) with a lot of details etc. and it is fulfilled in the exact same way as it is told. It would be pretty hard to explain this event away, don't you think?

People who claimed to be psychics could pass double-blind, controlled tests on levitating objects or finding killers.

Naturally, you could not rule out natural explanations for this 100%, but that is beside the point.
 
Last edited:
  • #18
Cyrus said:
Since I have winter break, I have been trying to keep myself bussy. That means going to Barns n Noble and reading books for free. I saw The GOD Delusion by Dawkins, so I decided to buy it and am going to read it. Followed by:

god

is not
GREAT


, and the Atheist handbook. Anyone read any of these books?


Yes,

Richard Dawkins shows as much sympathetic understanding of a rational theological approach as religious fundamentalists do of his approach.

Religious fundamentalists and atheist fundamentalists need each other to prove to themselves how unreasonable their opposition is.

Garth
 
  • #19
Yes,

Richard Dawkins shows as much understanding of a rational theological approach as fundamentalists do of his approach.

Religious fundamentalists and atheist fundamentalists need each other to prove to themselves how unreasonable their opposition is.

Garth

Do you need a PhD in fashion to see that the Emperor is naked? Also, there isn't really anything called "atheist fundamentalism". By the way, I just loved the phrase "rational theological approach".
 
  • #20
I agree. Both of those events would be hard to explain away. But at that point someone who was a convinced athiest would say something along the same lines as I mentioned above:

<Devil's Advocate>

Well, the Catholic's just got lucky. And that Ghandi thing is just a coincidence.

</Devil's Advocate>

Even if an amazingly powerful being came down from space and said he was God. If he was immune to all human attacks and was able to destroy the Earth just by talking, if he was able to cure all illnesses by touch and grant the wish of every person on the Earth, I think there would still be doubt in whether he was actually a diety or just some very powerful extra-terrestrial lifeform.

Anyway, it's been good fun Moridin, but I think there are much more important arguments to waste our time on.:smile: I think you've pretty much beaten me anyway! Touche!:biggrin:
 
Last edited:
  • #21
Moridin said:
Do you need a PhD in fashion to see that the Emperor is naked? Also, there isn't really anything called "atheist fundamentalism"...

Yet they have their own holy book, it seems.

Cyrus said:
... the Atheist handbook...

I wonder if they thump it during debates.

:smile:
 
  • #22
As a side note (I do not wish to completely derail the tread):

I do not know of a single committed atheist that would not be completely turned by that evidence. The examples I gave is actually the same examples as people like Dawkins, Dennett, Edis, Carrier or Stenger cite when asked what would make them change their minds (it is in their books) :biggrin:

Yet they have their own holy book, it seems.

That was one hilarious equivocation! :biggrin:

(To clarify, a naturalistic atheist do not think anything is "holy" as in supernatural, if that wasn't obvious)
 
Last edited:
  • #23
Math Is Hard said:
Yet they have their own holy book, it seems.

:biggrin:
 
  • #24
I have read most of Dawkin's books on biology but I have skipped the god delusion so far. I am an atheist for many of the same reasons that Dawkins is, and I believe that some of the things he says have lots of merit in todays world (ie. children being basically indoctrinated with a religion at a very young age is very wrong.) But for some reason his huge level of confidence on the matter irks me.
 
  • #25
The so called "atheists" that would have a "handbook" are not real atheists, they are more likely people still struggling with religion.

A true atheist simply does not care and has no views or feelings about religion, other than, perhaps, that people that believe in religion are somewhat gullible. To an atheist, religious people are simply people that believe in "make believe", but they have no antagonistic feelings towrds them.

I do know of self proclaimed atheists that are nuts and these are the ones that are the counterparts of religious fanatics. They have an agenda and I don't consider them true atheists. A true atheist doesn't care what people choose to believe as long as no one tries to push their belief system on them.
 
  • #26
G01 said:
I agree with you Ivan. Just as one cannot prove the existence of God, one cannot disprove the existence of God either. This is what puts the subject outside the scientific realm. And my argument against scientific creationism is now summed up in two lines!:biggrin:

Bingo. It is outside the scientific realm.

I grow wary of Dawkins because to me he seems to be the same as a religious zealot but on the other side of the spectrum. He seems so determined on derailing religion that it's scary. I remember watching him in an interview and it was like he was trying to wage war on religion.

Although not being affiliated with any kind of religion myself, I have recognized the importance of it. Just like government must be bound to its proper sphere, so must science and religion. It is easy to see the proper sphere of science, which is the explanation of the behavior of physical laws and it's practical use in human life. What is the proper sphere of religion (and myth, etc)? It is morality, and more importantly, meaning. Unfortunately, people who worship science don't understand it's weaknesses, such as that it can not give meaning, and in some cases it can even lessen our understanding of it. That is why you will never get a scientific answer to "What is the meaning of life?" because it is outside of the sphere of science. Science cannot give meaning as to what it means to be human. Religion and myth does a much better job. Conversely, religion does a terrible job at explaining our physical world, which is the idea that Dawkins seems to want to take and run away with. If only he could see the other side of the spectrum. If all human beings were to perish, what goes with us? Not science, because the laws of science will still be around. It is the meaning that will perish, which goes to show that meaning is entirely a human construct just like religion.

I think if you can see these things in their proper realms, you can very much realize that they can easily coexist. It's too bad we have people on both sides of the extreme who don't see it and usually take things too literally. I believe that when people (like dawkins) are arguing about proving the existence or non-existence of God, they are completely missing the point.

"The stories speak to something inside us that wants to know how our world lives, that wants to make order of it and find some meaning. Myths fulfill that in a way that science and facts don't always do, because science and facts don't always give us meaning."

Does that not apply to religion too?

Yes, I understand that posting this will probably get me flamed in this forum (given the name). Hopefully it won't though. Understand it's just my opinion and observations over the years.
 
  • #27
I do know of self proclaimed atheists that are nuts and these are the ones that are the counterparts of religious fanatics. They have an agenda and I don't consider them true atheists. A true atheist doesn't care what people choose to believe as long as no one tries to push their belief system on them.

Naturally, people lilke Dawkins et. al are more than just atheists, they are also activist and critics of religion. Doesn't make them any less atheist, just atheist + baggage. About pushing their belief system on them, religious mentality pretty much permeates all culture and criticism of religion is still considered taboo in some respects. You did read the universal statement from the Pope recently, did you? His bigoted encyclical condemning atheists?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman :biggrin:

It is morality, and more importantly, meaning.

That's not religion, that's moral philosophy! :biggrin:

I trust that you are aware that religion(s) generally make outrageous claims about the natural world, from miracles, historical events and claims about science? Furthermore, the science of human behavior is currently being developed, so that part of religion is also under scientific attack.
 
Last edited:
  • #28
Moridin said:
That's not religion, that's moral philosophy! :biggrin:

I trust that you are aware that religion(s) generally make outrageous claims about the natural world, from miracles, historical events and claims about science? Furthermore, the science of human behavior is currently being developed, so that part of religion is also under scientific attack.

Yes you make a good point, and you illustrate the other side of the spectrum of religion being taken out of context of trying to explain the physical world. Just as bad as the other side.

The science of human behavior is probably one of the worst things to happen to myth. If you could only see all the junk Shakespeare analysis that has been churned out because people start applying psychoanalysis to his works.

Not only that but Darwin's theories has led some to believe that they could justify their actions because of 'survival of the fittest'. Social Darwinism I believe. It's subtle but you will notice how morality and meaning gets lost when science rears its head in. We aren't human beings anymore, were just a mass of cells right?
 
  • #29
Globally, I'm not really that concerned whether God or Bigbang created the universe. But locally we have Earth that is 4.5 billions years old, and evolution crafting species for survival in the next generation. As a result, humans came to act like wild animals everywhere you go. I would even go as far and say that humans are apes on steroids.

The behavior of the general population is primitive at best, it revolves around submission and dominance. Domination for gaining resources, and submission for being weak. This is prevalient on all levels of society. My hypothesis is that the motive for every event in human history can be explained in terms of that duality. Psychology exposes how redundant human mind is, and sociology reveals the human animal. I believe this is where Dawkins is.

Here is a small example about human psychology. Derren Brown who is sort of a psychological mentalist uses psychology to control people in a mall.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #30
Yes you make a good point, and you illustrate the other side of the spectrum of religion being taken out of context of trying to explain the physical world. Just as bad as the other side.

What side?

Are they taking their religion out-of-context, or do you have an illusion of harmony? Religious scripture makes specific fact claims about the natural world, which is impossible to fit into your proposed dichotomy. For instance, every Christian who lived before the 17th century has thought, that the Earth is < 10000 years old and affirmed special creation.

43% of the US population does not accept evolution.

Is this out of context? Do these millions of millions of millions of people have an incorrect view of their religion? Do the famous Christian theologians of the past, from Aquinas and Augustine etc. have the wrong view of Christianity? Or is it you that is incapable of understanding that religions actually do make serious fact claims about the world.

The science of human behavior is probably one of the worst things to happen to myth. If you could only see all the junk Shakespeare analysis that has been churned out because people start applying psychoanalysis to his works.

By the science of human behavior, I do not mean psychoanalysis, I mean cognitive science, neurobiology etc.

Not only that but Darwin's theories has led some to believe that they could justify their actions because of 'survival of the fittest'. Social Darwinism I believe. It's subtle but you will notice how morality and meaning gets lost when science rears its head in. We aren't human beings anymore, were just a mass of cells right?

I'm not sure what type of myth I shall refute first! :biggrin:

Darwin's ideas of evolution did not lead to anything. Darwin did not even use the term "survival of the fittest" and today, it is simply a conversational term to explain evolution to laymen. In modern evolutionary biology, the correct term would be "survival of the most cooperative" or "survival of those who fit best". "Fit" does not means "strong" in this context by the way. Furthermore, in modern biology, Darwin is a nobody. Both racism and Nazism existed before Darwin, so playing the blame game will get you nowhere.

Not only that, they committed the naturalist fallacy. You cannot get an 'ought' from an 'is'. As the coup de grâce, I'll even show how it is scientifically inaccurate. Let us say that we think that selecting for a strong immune system is going to help humanity and that we should sterilize or kill the rest. This will not help the survival of humans, since bacteria and viruses simply will mutate along. Furthermore, disease such as bird flu actually only kills the strong individuals, since it triggers a cytokine storm, a positive-feedback loop that makes the body self-destruct.

Actually, morality is completely natural and all ethical statements and moral imperatives can be reduced to empirical statements concerning the natural world.

"you ought to do X" is equivalent to "you ought to do X, since X => Y and Y is a normative proposition, that is, everyone will do it provided they have access to all informations and their reasoning is not fallacious. They only time one does not do X is when one either lacks information or has a poor reasoning.

X => Y (empirical statement that can be confirmed or refuted by science)
Y is a normative proposition (empirical statement that can be confirmed or refuted by cognitive science).

Furthermore, all moral propositions that rests on faulty empirical assumptions is necessarily wrong, since you cannot justify a conclusion with incorrect premises or logical fallacies. This is how we explain moral progress. One can either question a persons understanding of facts, or his reasoning. Then it follows that we know that the Nazi is wrong because his justification is that the Jew is not human and that he therefore has no value. But Jews are humans and it does not follow that non-humans lack value. So we can objectively, from science, say that Nazis where morally wrong.

You seem to have an irrational fear of reductionism. It doesn't matter if you are made of cells or paper, what matters is emotion, sentience and consciousness. To say that humans are just cells is stating the obvious. This fact changes nothing in our treatment of others or morality. However, religion does corrupt morality, since he have the true believers and the heretics, who deserve to die and be punished forever and ever.

Say you are listening to Bach. You like Bach. Then you realize that what you are hearing is just sound waves hitting your ear drum from an oscillator that has recorded hammers hitting wires made by a person's nervous system rearranging itself due to blobs on a piece of paper. Then you listen to Bach again. You still like Bach just as much as you did before, despite the fact. You might even like it more.

How about the Crusades? The Inquisition? Witch burning? Pope's condemnation of condoms in Africa resulting in the death of millions? Forced conversion of Nordic pagans? Where is the morality then? Where is the morality when apostasy is punished with death in Islam, for instance?

QED.

As a result, humans came to act like wild animals everywhere you go. I would even go as far and say that humans are apes on steroids.

Our capabilities for reason far outweighs those of apes or "wild animals". Humans are animals because they are classified as "Animalia". There isn't really anything more to it than that.

Also, Derren Brown fakes it quite often:

http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #31
waht said:
Here is a small example about human psychology. Derren Brown who is sort of a psychological mentalist uses psychology to control people in a mall.



The same Derren Brown that can knock people down to the ground without touching them? Chuck Norris has nothing on this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBXXA5xhcQ0&feature=related

http://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/realhappy/xxrotflmao.gif
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #32
Moridin said:
What side?

Are they taking their religion out-of-context, or do you have an illusion of harmony? Religious scripture makes specific fact claims about the natural world, which is impossible to fit into your proposed dichotomy. For instance, every Christian who lived before the 17th century has thought, that the Earth is < 10000 years old and affirmed special creation.

43% of the US population does not accept evolution.

Is this out of context? Do these millions of millions of millions of people have an incorrect view of their religion? Do the famous Christian theologians of the past, from Aquinas and Augustine etc. have the wrong view of Christianity? Or is it you that is incapable of understanding that religions actually do make serious fact claims about the world.

I mean by out-of-context, or too literally. I'm making the case that it's more important to get the lessons that are learned from religion than to make fact claims about the physical world. Maybe this is a new way of seeing religion, where it can co-exist with science? I thought it wasn't new what I was thinking, but no one seems to understand what I'm trying to get across. Maybe it is.

Moridin said:
Darwin's ideas of evolution did not lead to anything. Darwin did not even use the term "survival of the fittest" and today, it is simply a conversational term to explain evolution to laymen. In modern evolutionary biology, the correct term would be "survival of the most cooperative" or "survival of those who fit best". "Fit" does not means "strong" in this context by the way. Furthermore, in modern biology, Darwin is a nobody. Both racism and Nazism existed before Darwin, so playing the blame game will get you nowhere.

Not only that, they committed the naturalist fallacy. You cannot get an 'ought' from an 'is'. As the coup de grâce, I'll even show how it is scientifically inaccurate. Let us say that we think that selecting for a strong immune system is going to help humanity and that we should sterilize or kill the rest. This will not help the survival of humans, since bacteria and viruses simply will mutate along. Furthermore, disease such as bird flu actually only kills the strong individuals, since it triggers a cytokine storm, a positive-feedback loop that makes the body self-destruct.

I completely agree. I've had to use the exact same argument against people on internet forums and in real life who have completely used these exact fallacies. Although you may understand the sphere in which science sits in, a lot of people don't. They will take things in science, and by the way they see it, make huge assumptions and fallacies on things like you mentioned above. I'm arguing that they are wrong and that it is outside of the sphere of science.

Moridin said:
Actually, morality is completely natural and all ethical statements and moral imperatives can be reduced to empirical statements concerning the natural world.

"you ought to do X" is equivalent to "you ought to do X, since X => Y and Y is a normative proposition, that is, everyone will do it provided they have access to all informations and their reasoning is not fallacious. They only time one does not do X is when one either lacks information or has a poor reasoning.

X => Y (empirical statement that can be confirmed or refuted by science)
Y is a normative proposition (empirical statement that can be confirmed or refuted by cognitive science).

Furthermore, all moral propositions that rests on faulty empirical assumptions is necessarily wrong, since you cannot justify a conclusion with incorrect premises or logical fallacies. This is how we explain moral progress. One can either question a persons understanding of facts, or his reasoning. Then it follows that we know that the Nazi is wrong because his justification is that the Jew is not human and that he therefore has no value. But Jews are humans and it does not follow that non-humans lack value. So we can objectively, from science, say that Nazis where morally wrong.

I don't agree with this. Trying to reduce morals to simple mathematical-like statements is not convincing at all. I believe the error is in assuming that "everyone will do it provided they have access to all informations and their reasoning is not fallacious". Okay, but does that ever happen in real life? Does everyone have non-fallacious reasoning? That's why I believe you can't reduce it to that, it is much more complicated. Hitler also cited cultural reasons for doing what he did, it wasn't just that simple statement. It's great if academics want to try to simplify everything like that and make those assumptions, but I don't see that happening in the real world or when I observe people myself. Take a look at it this way. What if Dr. King gave all his speeches in these simple statements that you have proposed? Would that take away meaning or add meaning to it? Understand that I've been focusing on meaning which is what I've italicized in my first post. Reduce something enough and it loses its meaning.

You give numerous examples of religion and it's bad sides, but completely ignore some of its good sides. Take for instance the Golden Rule, which is found in many religions. There are people who twist religion as there is people who have twisted science.

Moridin said:
You seem to have an irrational fear of reductionism. It doesn't matter if you are made of cells or paper, what matters is emotion, sentience and consciousness. To say that humans are just cells is stating the obvious. This fact changes nothing in our treatment of others or morality. However, religion does corrupt morality, since he have the true believers and the heretics, who deserve to die and be punished forever and ever.

Say you are listening to Bach. You like Bach. Then you realize that what you are hearing is just sound waves hitting your ear drum from an oscillator that has recorded hammers hitting wires made by a person's nervous system rearranging itself due to blobs on a piece of paper. Then you listen to Bach again. You still like Bach just as much as you did before, despite the fact. You might even like it more.

Interesting how you mention this, since I'm dual-majoring and one of my majors is in music. I guess you and I just have different perspectives on this. Understanding the science behind how the hammers and blobs on paper isn't what get people to the concert halls. Is it wrong to look at it in that way? No, of course not. But that view offers no meaning to the music. The irony is that Bach was deeply religious and there is no way you can ignore the meaning from religion in his works. Good luck on getting science to explain the meaning behind Bach because many have tried in the past. You should even see how some are trying to do that with Shakespeare. That's what I mean by out-of-context or outside of its sphere.
 
  • #33
I've got an impression, that usually Europeans think that Dawkins is nearly a hero, but Americans don't really like him. Anyone agreeing or disagreeing?

Ivan Seeking said:
From what I saw at his [Dawkins] blog, his thesis is fundamentally flawed: One cannot prove that God does not exist.

Is this or is this not his objective; to prove that God does not exist? If it is then he flunks philosophy 101.

I haven't read the book, but Wikipedia says

In The God Delusion, Dawkins contends that a supernatural creator almost certainly does not exist and that belief in a god qualifies as a delusion, which he defines as a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence.

Here are two claims:

"God exists"

"God protects you in traffic if you pray"

The first one is beyond the reach of science, but the second one is not. It suffices to study statistics and see that people who pray die and get injured in traffic accidents just like people who don't pray. I've understood that these are the kind of things that Dawkins is talking about.
 
  • #34
Evo said:
The so called "atheists" that would have a "handbook" are not real atheists, they are more likely people still struggling with religion.

A true atheist simply does not care and has no views or feelings about religion, other than, perhaps, that people that believe in religion are somewhat gullible. To an atheist, religious people are simply people that believe in "make believe", but they have no antagonistic feelings towrds them.

I do know of self proclaimed atheists that are nuts and these are the ones that are the counterparts of religious fanatics. They have an agenda and I don't consider them true atheists. A true atheist doesn't care what people choose to believe as long as no one tries to push their belief system on them.

Thats not true at all. I am an atheist, and I like the idea of atheiests taking a stand against organized religion. Dawkins stats in the first chapter how the Jews and Christians have powerful lobbies in the US, but athiest have no real organization to push their influence. So, I think its correct and appropriate for them to have a handbook and to get rid of religion.
 
  • #35
falc39 said:
I mean by out-of-context, or too literally. I'm making the case that it's more important to get the lessons that are learned from religion than to make fact claims about the physical world. Maybe this is a new way of seeing religion, where it can co-exist with science? I thought it wasn't new what I was thinking, but no one seems to understand what I'm trying to get across. Maybe it is.

Lessons learned = story telling. Ignoring the facts made about the physical world means religion is nothing but a book of fairy tales (which it is), and will make funadmentalists mad (which it will). Religion is the surrender of logic, therefore it cannot exist with science.



I don't agree with this. Trying to reduce morals to simple mathematical-like statements is not convincing at all.

No one is trying to do that, or claim that.

You give numerous examples of religion and it's bad sides, but completely ignore some of its good sides. Take for instance the Golden Rule, which is found in many religions. There are people who twist religion as there is people who have twisted science.

Who has 'twisted science'? Id like to know please. Are you going to 'twist' the conservation of energy? If so, your a crackpot.


Understanding the science behind how the hammers and blobs on paper isn't what get people to the concert halls. Is it wrong to look at it in that way? No, of course not. But that view offers no meaning to the music. The irony is that Bach was deeply religious and there is no way you can ignore the meaning from religion in his works. Good luck on getting science to explain the meaning behind Bach because many have tried in the past. You should even see how some are trying to do that with Shakespeare. That's what I mean by out-of-context or outside of its sphere.

I listen to Bach, love it. Never went to church in my life. So clearly, YES you CAN ignore religion in Bach and enjoy it.

No offense, but you have some bad points.

Anyways, my thread is about his BOOK. So, please argue about points in his BOOK. (Otherwise this thread will be locked, and I will be mad). Feel free to argue points in his book that are posted if u have not read the book, otherwise, stay on the side lines.
 
Last edited:
  • #36
Just a clarification, after this, I'll stop derailing this thread :biggrin:

I mean by out-of-context, or too literally. I'm making the case that it's more important to get the lessons that are learned from religion than to make fact claims about the physical world. Maybe this is a new way of seeing religion, where it can co-exist with science? I thought it wasn't new what I was thinking, but no one seems to understand what I'm trying to get across. Maybe it is.

Interesting ideas, but how do you explain the massive amount of fact claims about the natural world religion(s) usually makes? To claim that all of that is "not-true-religion" seems somewhat strange to me. It is true religion for those who practice it.

I don't agree with this. Trying to reduce morals to simple mathematical-like statements is not convincing at all. I believe the error is in assuming that "everyone will do it provided they have access to all informations and their reasoning is not fallacious". Okay, but does that ever happen in real life? Does everyone have non-fallacious reasoning?

You see, it does not mean that everyone will have access to all information and reason correctly. It is not an assumption; in fact, it does not even require it to be true. I simply argued that Y is a normative proposition provided they have access to all information and are reasoning correctly. You can certainly disagree with the statement "You ought to do X" but that is not so important, since once can objectively establish that "You ought to do X" as I have shown. Your disagreement with objective empirical data makes little difference, as does not the ideas of a person disagreeing with, say, physics or history. So what I am proposing is an objective, natural theory of morals and ethics.

That's why I believe you can't reduce it to that, it is much more complicated. Hitler also cited cultural reasons for doing what he did, it wasn't just that simple statement.

Be so that it may, however, the empirical justifications he used is provably incorrect. Thus, all moral statements and ethical propositions built on top of invalid premises, must be, per definition, wrong. Think of a house of cards; what happens when you remove a bunch of cards at the bottom? Now if you would say that you think that the house of cards is still standing is of little importance; it is an objective fact that it does not stand.

We can also establish that Hitler caused suffering in sentient humans and show, via the method about that "You ought not cause suffering in sentient humans" is true. Reductionism can be scary sometimes, but it is good to remember that it doesn't change anything on the macro level. It can even be extremely useful at times.

You give numerous examples of religion and it's bad sides, but completely ignore some of its good sides. Take for instance the Golden Rule, which is found in many religions. There are people who twist religion as there is people who have twisted science.

Is the Golden Rule something intrinsically religious? It exists in pretty much all religions and has been around way before the existence of the bible. Even Confucius mentions it, predating the bible. Also, it is not hard to deduce it from first principles. In fact, evolutionary biology predicts that this very principle is hard-wired into our genes as the result of the evolution of cooperation and altruism.

So is the golden rule a result of religion, or a result of reasoning individuals, supported by biological instincts? I would claim that latter.

People can twist science, but we can objectively demonstrate that they are wrong. This is not apparent in religion. How can person A of religion X claim that person B of religion X is wrong? He has nothing objective to go on, just his selective interpretation of scripture?

Understanding the science behind how the hammers and blobs on paper isn't what get people to the concert halls. Is it wrong to look at it in that way? No, of course not. But that view offers no meaning to the music.

I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that, even though you know the entire reductionist view of it, it is still great music.
 
  • #37
Cyrus said:
Lessons learned = story telling. Ignoring the facts made about the physical world means religion is nothing but a book of fairy tales (which it is), and will make funadmentalists mad (which it will). Religion is the surrender of logic, therefore it cannot exist with science.

Can you not see that you are making a similar mistake to which you say these fundamentalists are making?

Its funny because I'm not religious but I do learn from it (and from other myths and story-telling including shakespeare), and I also learn from science because I'm in undergrad engineering. Apparently they both can co-exist in my world.



Cyrus said:
No one is trying to do that, or claim that.

Yes, the poster stated:
"Actually, morality is completely natural and all ethical statements and moral imperatives can be reduced to empirical statements concerning the natural world."


Cyrus said:
Who has 'twisted science'? Id like to know please. Are you going to 'twist' the conservation of energy? If so, your a crackpot.

Darwin's theories have been twisted and used for other purposes. Dawkins has been using science to try to get rid of the belief in God. Totally bad things to do.


Cyrus said:
I listen to Bach, love it. Never went to church in my life. So clearly, YES you CAN ignore religion in Bach and enjoy it.

No offense, but you have some bad points.

Anyways, my thread is about his BOOK. So, please argue about points in his BOOK. (Otherwise this thread will be locked, and I will be mad). Feel free to argue points in his book that are posted if u have not read the book, otherwise, stay on the side lines.

My points do relate to the book though. Can't you see that people like Dawkins are on their own little 'holy' crusade in the name of science to smear religion? It seems he has convinced quite a few of you that religion is 'bad' just because it doesn't follow 'logic'.
 
  • #38
falc39 said:
Can you not see that you are making a similar mistake to which you say these fundamentalists are making?

But I am not. I am saying to live by what we can see and be seen. What we know to be true. Not to live by wish-thinking and fairy tales that have no basis or support for their claims.

Its funny because I'm not religious but I do learn from it (and from other myths and story-telling including shakespeare), and I also learn from science because I'm in undergrad engineering. Apparently they both can co-exist in my world.

Well, of course. Religion is a story, and there are things you can learn from any story. But that's not the crux of the matter. Also, no they cant. When religion tells you the world is x years old, and that x,y,z happend, and science CLEARLY tells you this is NOT the case, then they both CANNOT exist in 'your world'.


Yes, the poster stated:
"Actually, morality is completely natural and all ethical statements and moral imperatives can be reduced to empirical statements concerning the natural world."

I made this thread to go over what the book is about, not what others have said in this thread. Sorry, but I am not going to derail the thread becuase then it will be locked.

Darwin's theories have been twisted and used for other purposes.

I have not heard this before, so Id like to hear examples of how and when.

Dawkins has been using science to try to get rid of the belief in God. Totally bad things to do.

No, its not. In fact, its in chapter 1 of his book, if you take the time to read it - so what's the big deal? To steal from religion, he 'practices what he preaches'.

My points do relate to the book though. Can't you see that people like Dawkins are on their own little 'holy' crusade in the name of science to smear religion? It seems he has convinced quite a few of you that religion is 'bad' just because it doesn't follow 'logic'.

No, perhaps you should see the thread on the NOVA video about the big uproard in PA over Creationism vs. Darwinism. BTW, he did not 'convince' me that religion is bad and does not follow logic. I came to this myself before I heard of his name. So don't speak for others, please.
 
Last edited:
  • #39
Dawkins is the scientist! Those who disagree are crackpots!

(I'm not going to debate about this.)
 
  • #40
Dont troll jostpuur.

This thread is getting way off topic STOP.
 
  • #41
Cyrus said:
Dont troll jostpuur.

But I had a good point. The mentors of this forum would not openly admit that they disagree with major scientifical authorities, but in reality they do.
 
  • #42
Is that in his book jostpuur? Funny, I don't recall reading about PF and its mentors in his book.
 
  • #43
In the chapter on evolution of religion, Dawkins makes some interesting points with the examples of a moth. If you have a light source, the moth will spiral inwards with a ~30 degree angle and fry itself to death. If one wonders how this behavior would have been able to be selected by evolution, one would come up empty-handed. As it turns out, one is asking the wrong question. The moth-flame thing is not the actual behavior promoted by evolution, it is a side-effect of the behavior that has been selected for by evolution, that is, moth navigation system.

Both Boyer and Dennett has written at great length on the evolutionary origin of superstition and to some extent, religious-based thought. I could spew out page after page with such scientific arguments. Reductionist Darwinian fundamentalism according to some, extremely fascinating according to others.

Some people are tempted to argue for group selection, but I am not convinced.
 
Last edited:
  • #44
Man, chapter one is AMAZING, I might scan and post a few pages from it. :biggrin:

The sh!t that Einstein got was eye opening from fellow Jews/christians when he said, "I don't believe in a personal god". He was clearly an athiest.
 
  • #45
Cyrus said:
But I am not. I am saying to live by what we can see and be seen. What we know to be true. Not to live by wish-thinking and fairy tales that have no basis or support for their claims.
Well, of course. Religion is a story, and there are things you can learn from any story. But that's not the crux of the matter. Also, no they cant. When religion tells you the world is x years old, and that x,y,z happend, and science CLEARLY tells you this is NOT the case, then they both CANNOT exist in 'your world'.

I made this thread to go over what the book is about, not what others have said in this thread. Sorry, but I am not going to derail the thread becuase then it will be locked.
I have not heard this before, so Id like to hear examples of how and when.
No, its not. In fact, its in chapter 1 of his book, if you take the time to read it - so what's the big deal? To steal from religion, he 'practices what he preaches'.
No, perhaps you should see the thread on the NOVA video about the big uproard in PA over Creationism vs. Darwinism. BTW, he did not 'convince' me that religion is bad and does not follow logic. I came to this myself before I heard of his name. So don't speak for others, please.

It's just sad to see this though. Religion is a lot more than just explanations of our physical worlds that contradict with science. I feel Dawkins is doing more harm than good, even if he has good intentions. Have you read much of Benjamin Franklin? Although not religious, he and his peers understood and praised the importance of religion and the values contained in it.
 
  • #46
:smile: HA-HA-HA-HA. Benjamin Franklin went to paris and had sex and gambled. He was NOT a religious man by any stretch of the imagination. The guy was a diest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

Scroll down to the part on religion.
 
Last edited:
  • #47
Cyrus said:
The sh!t that Einstein got was eye opening from fellow Jews/christians when he said, "I don't believe in a personal god". He was clearly an athiest.
No, that's an overstatement. Read Issacson's Einstein bio for good treatment. Einstein said:
I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the harmony of all being
From Spinoza's Ethica
By God I mean a being absolutely infinite-that is, a substance consisting in infinite attributes, of which each expresses eternal and infinite essentiality
and
Whatever is, is in God, and without God nothing can be, or be conceived
.
 
  • #48
Cyrus said:
:smile: HA-HA-HA-HA. Benjamin Franklin went to paris and had sex and gambled. He was NOT a religious man by any stretch of the imagination. The guy was a diest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

Scroll down to the part on religion.

I never said he was religious, but anyways I went to the link:

Like most Enlightenment intellectuals, Franklin separated virtue, morality, and faith from organized religion, although he felt that if religion in general grew weaker, morality, virtue, and society in general would also decline. Thus he wrote Thomas Paine, "If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it." According to David Morgan,[32] Franklin was a proponent of all religions. He prayed to "Powerful Goodness" and referred to God as the "INFINITE." John Adams noted that Franklin was a mirror in which people saw their own religion: "The Catholics thought him almost a Catholic. The Church of England claimed him as one of them. The Presbyterians thought him half a Presbyterian, and the Friends believed him a wet Quaker." Whatever else Benjamin Franklin was, concludes Morgan, "he was a true champion of generic religion." Ben Franklin was noted to be "the spirit of the Enlightenment."

That's actually very similar to my views.

This is most telling:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...

He seems to say that religion got twisted at some point.

Tying it to the topic. Franklin, although not religious never tried to smear religion. I mean people said he was the "true champion of generic religion". In a way, religion and science did co-exist in his world. He understood the values but kept it separate from science and didn't get too literal with it.
 
  • #49
jostpuur said:
But I had a good point. The mentors of this forum would not openly admit that they disagree with major scientifical authorities, but in reality they do.
That's a false statement. Perhaps one does, the majority do not.
 
  • #50
mheslep said:
No, that's an overstatement. Read Issacson's Einstein bio for good treatment. Einstein said:

From Spinoza's Ethica
and
.

TGD said:
I am a deeply religious nonbeliever. This is a somewhat new kind of religion.

I have never impute to Nature a purpose or a goal, or anything that could be understood as anthropomorphic. What I see in Nature is a magnificient structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticisim.

The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive.

-Albert Einstein

Speaks for itself.

The response from Jewish and Christian community, go back to Germany and burn in a death camp. :eek:
 
Last edited:
Back
Top