The Israel Lobby

  • #26
CRGreathouse
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i don't think it's the same, they are tripled in number if not more, not sure if there's a poll done on this but I don't really think that people are aware of such a lobby [I'm talking about the majority]. cause it would definitely show if there are as many who recognize it
If you have a poll I would be interested to see it, especially if it includes many countries beside the US (in a statistically significant way). But whatever the results, it won't prove anything. If 99% of people believed there was no lobby or that it has no special influence, that wouldn't mean it's true; if 99% believed it was the dominant force in American politics that wouldn't make it true either.
 
  • #27
drizzle
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If you have a poll I would be interested to see it, especially if it includes many countries beside the US (in a statistically significant way). But whatever the results, it won't prove anything. If 99% of people believed there was no lobby or that it has no special influence, that wouldn't mean it's true; if 99% believed it was the dominant force in American politics that wouldn't make it true either.
you maybe correct.
 
  • #28
kyleb
I read the context for it before I even started this thread! I've been reading the papers side-by-side to compare. Further, I posted a fair amount of context (more than you or Dershowitz). It's not clear to me how you conclude that the MW statement is refuted by the context. My argument here is the one I presented above (but which has not been addressed): if you replace the short quote by Ben-Gurion...
I wasn't talking about the Ben-Gurion quotes there, I was responding to your reply to my comment here, which you quoted the first portion of but apparently failed to comprehend it in context:
As for the the claim of logical weakness, the comment you quoted through Dershowitz is better understood when it isn't deprived of context:
Indeed, the mere existence of the Lobby suggests that unconditional support for Israel is not in the American national interest. If it was, one would not need an organized special interest group to bring it about. But because Israel is a strategic and moral liability, it takes relentless political pressure to keep U.S. support intact. As Richard Gephardt, the former House Minority Leader, told the American‐Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), “Without [your] constant support . . . and all your fighting on a daily basis to strengthen that relationship, it would not be.” This quote was downloaded from the AIPAC website [http://www.aipac.org/] on January 12, 2004. Also see Michael Kinsley, “J’Accuse, Sort Of,” Slate, March 12, 2003.
On the other hand, Dershowitz's argument against the statement is absurd when it is understood in its original context. so I won't bother reprinting it here.
Again, if you believe otherwise, please present your argument so I can address it.

As for your arguments on the Ben-Gurion quote, I will gladly come back to that later, but in the interest of avoiding further confusion I feel it is best we stick to addressing one point of contention at a time.
 
  • #29
CRGreathouse
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I wasn't talking about the Ben-Gurion quotes there, I was responding to your reply to my comment here, which you quoted the first portion of but apparently failed to comprehend it in context:
Your statement is an http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Ad_Hominem attack. On forums, I quote as little as is needed to make clear which statement I am addressing. The full context is present, so I don't feel the need to go further.
 
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  • #30
kyleb
I wasn't attacking you there, I pointing where I had responded to the issue of Dershowitz's argument against the statement "Indeed, the mere existence of the Lobby suggests that unconditional support for Israel is not in the American national interest. If it was, one would not need an organized special interest group to bring it about", but which you had responded to as if my comment was in regard to the separate matter of the Ben-Gurion quotes.

Again, do you agree that Dershowitz's claim of logical weakness is absurd when the statement he quotes is understood in its original context, or do you care to present an argument to the contrary?
 
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