Pilots & JAL 1628 UFO Event: Validation of Stigma?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Aether
  • Start date Start date
AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers around the stigma pilots face regarding UFO sightings, particularly referencing the Japan Airlines flight JAL1628 incident. Participants debate the implications of a video that allegedly validates concerns about this stigma. One participant argues that the video does not provide evidence of stigma, citing that the JAL pilot was grounded after a medical exam rather than due to fear of stigma from reporting a UFO. Others counter that the pilot's grounding and the anonymity of airline employees in similar cases illustrate a broader issue of fear among pilots regarding reporting UFOs. They reference FAA documents and expert analyses that suggest pilots may be discouraged from reporting sightings due to potential ridicule or career repercussions. The conversation includes detailed examinations of radar data and pilot testimonies, with disagreements on the interpretation of evidence and the credibility of sources. Overall, the thread highlights the ongoing debate about the treatment of pilots who report UFOs and the associated professional risks.
Aether
Gold Member
Messages
714
Reaction score
2
Ivan Seeking said:
Btw Aether, if you see the Pilot UFO sightings video in post #50 of the UFO Napster, you will find some validation of the alleged stigma that concerns pilots.
Ivan, thank-you for maintaining this forum.

I watched the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beCAZVCpwrc" that you find such validation, and explain why you interpret it as such.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Physics news on Phys.org
Aether said:
Ivan, thank-you for maintaining this forum.

I watched the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beCAZVCpwrc" that you find such validation, and explain why you interpret it as such.

How could you have watched it without seeing the long segment on the JAL pilot? That was discussed explicitly and in some detail. I believe another pilot mentions this as well.

It would take some time to find many of the examples that I have seen over the years, but I will start posting them to this thread as I run across them. It is common to hear pilots mention this, but even in this case – the O’Hare case - note that airline employees are remaining anonymous. Their case for some kind of sighting is proven by the FAA documents released after claims were made, but they don’t wish to go public with their names.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ivan Seeking said:
How could you have watched it without seeing the long segment on the JAL pilot? That was discussed explicitly and in some detail.
I saw that segment, but I didn't see anything in there to suggest that the JAL pilot was in fear of an alleged stigma. He reported what he saw, then he was grounded after a medical exam by a qualified doctor, and then he was reinstated to fly. Where in that segement is there any evidence of a stigma, real or imagined?
 
He was grounded because he saw a UFO. That is the stigma.

Also, I believe that he had to take the airline to court, but I will have to dig for that information. Also, I think in this video there is another pilot who makes the statement directly that pilots fear reporting UFOs.
 
Last edited:
Ivan Seeking said:
He was grounded because he saw a UFO. That is the stigma.
That is not what was stated in the video. In the video, it was stated that he was grounded after a medical exam. Even if he was grounded because he saw a UFO (which is not what the video said) then that would still not be evidence that he was in fear of an alleged stigma at any time.
 
...because he saw a UFO. He was grounded for a medical exam.
 
That is why Dr. Haines offered his analysis and showed that the object was tracked on RADAR.
You had better watch it again. This was made pretty clear.
 
Ivan Seeking said:
...because he saw a UFO. He was grounded for a medical exam.
Maybe so, but I don't recall hearing anyone in the video say that. If you do, then please give the quote and the time of occurrence in the video.

That is why Dr. Haines offered his analysis and showed that the object was tracked on RADAR. You had better watch it again. This was made pretty clear.
Ok, I will watch it again.

Also, I believe that he had to take the airline to court, but I will have to dig for that information. Also, I think in this video there is another pilot who makes the statement directly that pilots fear reporting UFOs.
Ok, that might be evidence if presented; but I didn't see any of that in this video. Please give the quote and the time of occurrence in the video of the other pilot's statement if you find it.
 
Last edited:
First of all, for the general case you can follow this:
http://www.ufodigest.com/news/0107/pilots.html

[the NARCAP site linked in the article is down temporarily, but they are a longstanding, operational website]

Since you seem to think this is some kind issue, I will review the video and note the related time marks when I have more time later. And, as I said earlier, I will post other examples over the next week or so.

Also, note again the annonymity in the O'Hare case. Nobody wants to go on the record.
 
Last edited:
  • #10
Here is more of the story

... Journalism is a skeptical trade, and as for pilots, even if they do spot strange lights, objects and movements in the sky for which they can conceive no other explanation, they are expected to keep their suspicions to themselves. Their livelihood depends on passengers' confidence. Talk of UFOs does not encourage it.

...There are other possibilities, among them a secret U.S. military operation or development, about which nothing is known precisely because it is secret. Or maybe it really was what Terauchi says it was – a UFO. In any case, Terauchi was shortly afterwards grounded by JAL for talking to the press. He was given a desk job, and only reinstated as a pilot years afterwards. Now 67 and retired, he lives quietly with his wife in a small town in north Kanto, and talks about the adventure as little as possible.

"I spoke to a doctor – he said it was an illusion," he tells Shukan Shincho. "
http://www.japantoday.com/jp/kuchikomi/443

So this says that he was grounded for going public. He was also told that the object he saw, that was tracked on RADAR, was an illusion.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #11
Here is a paper by Haines about aviation safety and UFOs, that discusses this issue.
(3) Documented UAP phenomena have been seen and reported for at least fifty years by pilots but many of these reporters have been either ridiculed or instructed not to report their sighting publically. (4) Responsible world aviation officials should take UAP phenomena seriously and issue clear procedures for reporting them without fearing ridicule, reprimand or other career impairment and in a manner that will support scientific research, (5) Airlines should implement instructional courses that teach pilots about optimal control procedures to carry out when flying near UAP and also what data to try to collect about them, if possible, and (5) A central clearing house should be identified to receive UAP reports (e.g., ASRS; Global Aviation Information Network (GAIN). This unclassified clearing house should collect, analyze, and report UAP sightings for the continuing benefit of aviation safety as well as scientific curiosity. Whatever UAP are they can pose a hazard to aviation safety and should be dealt with appropriately and without bias.[continued]
http://www.ufologie.net/doc/narcap.pdf

This is linked in the UFO napster, but again, the NARCAP site is down right now, so I found the paper at another site.
 
  • #12
Ivan Seeking said:
So this says that he was grounded for going public.
He is not quoted as saying that. The reporter says this without giving any source, or evidence.
He was also told that the object he saw, that was tracked on RADAR, was an illusion.
What Terauchi actually said was that the object was not tracked on RADAR: "I checked with the Anchorage control tower. They said nothing was showing on their radar...Five minutes later, the object vanished in the gathering darkness, but soon another, much larger object, "several tens of times larger than a jumbo jet," which itself is some 70 meters long, appeared, bathed in blue light. Again the control tower radar registered nothing."
 
  • #13
You clearly haven't watched the analysis with Haines. Haines said that it was tracked on RADAR. He submitted the evidence showing this to JAL. What you quoted there occurred before the ground RADAR picked up the second object.

Aether said:
Ivan Seeking said:
So this says that he was grounded for going public.

He is not quoted as saying that. The reporter says this without giving any source, or evidence.

Take it up with Japan. I only repeated what they had reported here. You wanted a reference, you got a reference in a matter of minutes. If you are claiming that the paper was falsely reporting the story, you would have to show evidence. I have followed this case since it happened and I believe the information presented is basically accurate. Many other references can be found.
 
Last edited:
  • #14
There is also plenty of information posted as per the stigma concern, with quotes from pilots.
 
  • #15
Okay, I went back and checked, and Haines explains this all very clearly between the 31 and 34 minute marks.

Edit: Also, here is another review of the event by Dr. Bruce Maccabee. There was a legitimate point of confusion: The second object was tracked by military RADAR, not the tower RADAR. However, this was all much later in the encounter. See the content between the 3 and 7 minute marks. [Note that with the Google video, you can scroll to any point in the file].
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8285709939745631584&q=UFO&hl=en

Also, the NICAP case file
http://www.nicap.org/jal1628.htm
http://www.nicap.org/reports/jal1628-2.htm

And
UFO Incident Involving a Japanese B747 in the Alaskan Region
John Callahan - Former Division Chief of Accidents and Investigations for the FAA
http://www.freedomofinfo.org/science.html
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #16
Ivan Seeking said:
You clearly haven't watched the analysis with Haines.
Yes I have watched it. I told you that I watched it.
Haines said that it was tracked on RADAR. He submitted the evidence showing this to JAL. What you quoted there occurred before the ground RADAR picked up the second object.
There is much more detail http://www.nicap.org/reports/jal1628-2.htm" . Whatever Haines' submitted to JAL is irrelevant because he did not show us what he submitted, and there is no reason for us to believe that what he submitted had any influence over the decision by the medical board of JAL to restore Terauchi's flying status. I do not consider Haines' remarks presented between the 31:33 and 33:28 marks of the video as evidence that Terauchi was ever in fear of an alleged stigma. More particularly, I do not consider Haines' remark presented at the 31:45 mark of the video as evidence that Terauchi was treated unfairly by the medical board of JAL. I would like to see Terauchi's medical records. I would like to see the actual reason given by the medical board of JAL for grounding him.

Aether said:
Ivan Seeking said:
That is why Dr. Haines offered his analysis and showed that the object was tracked on RADAR. You had better watch it again. This was made pretty clear.
Ok, I will watch it again.
I watched it again. Dr. Haines' analysis is demonstrably confused (wrong) about most if not all of the objective facts which pertain to this case.

33:28-34:25 Richard Haines said:
It's important to realize that a pure visual sighting is just is not as important as a correlated RADAR-visual sighting, and this case qualifies. And so we have multiple eye-witnesses in the cockpit who confirm what the radar is telling them you see. Well I asked Captain Terauchi about the onboard RADAR...he had a weather RADAR on there...and he told me that he tried to image something on the weather RADAR and didn't receive any signals back from the aircraft now. Nonetheless, there was ground RADAR that every aircraft of course has to be plotted where it is for safety reasons and so ground RADAR had picked up not only the 747 as it should but also this "uncorrelated" target...something near the airplane that shouldn't have been there...why, because it wasn't identified they didn't know what it was.
This is not consistent with the facts as presented in detail http://www.nicap.org/reports/jal1628-2.htm" . First Haines' says that "we have multiple eye-witnesses in the cockpit who confirm what the radar is telling them" and then he says that onboard radar "didn't receive any signals back from the aircraft". The onboard radar did receive signals back from something about eight miles ahead of the aircraft, but flight engineer Tsukuba said that he did "not think it (the radar target) was the same lights as the one (sic) I saw in front of us." A ground-based radar did pick up something about five miles behind the aircraft, but the flight crew immediately responded that this was not what they were talking about.
AARTCC & JAL1628 said:
5:25:02 AARTCC - JAL1628 heavy, roger sir. I'm picking up a hit on the radar approximately five miles in trail of your six o'clock position (i.e., behind the plane). Do you concur?
5:25:12 JAL1628 - Ah, negative, ah, 11 o'clock, ah, eight miles, ah, same level. Over.

Ivan Seeking said:
Aether said:
Ivan Seeking said:
So this says that he was grounded for going public.
He is not quoted as saying that. The reporter says this without giving any source, or evidence.
Take it up with Japan. I only repeated what they had reported here. You wanted a reference, you got a reference in a matter of minutes. If you are claiming that the paper was falsely reporting the story, you would have to show evidence.
I am not necessarily claiming that this paper is falsely reporting this story, but I do not find within it any convincing "validation of the alleged stigma that concerns pilots".
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #17
Aether said:
Yes I have watched it. I told you that I watched it.

Then why did you deny what is clearly stated in the video.

There is much more detail http://www.nicap.org/reports/jal1628-2.htm" on the nature of the RADAR evidence in this case.

That's why I posted it.

I do not see any correlation between any of this RADAR evidence and the lights seen by this flight crew, and neither do I see any correlation between this RADAR evidence and Haines' characterization of it as presented between the 33:28 and 34:26 marks of the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beCAZVCpwrc".

That's interesting, what aircraft do you suppose it was?

Whatever Haines' submitted to JAL is irrelevant because he did not show us what he submitted,

Correct, he is telling the story based on his research. The audio tapes were played in the other link and documented in the written report. Also, first you found his testimony acceptable, and now you don't; interesting. And as you have already pointed out, I posted the report from another source to help make this all clear.

I do not consider Haines' remarks presented between the 31:33 and 33:28 marks of the video as evidence that Terauchi was ever in fear of an alleged stigma.

The stigma is attached to making formal and public reports. The original claim was that he was grounded because he saw and reported a UFO, and that this is an example of what worries pilots. I provided sources citing this allegation. But here, you have tried to divert the discussion by making the statement that there is no evidence in the aforementioned section of the video showing concern about the stigma of filing a report. You are clearly misrepresenting the original statement. The next such misrepresentation of this discussion, or of my post, or attempts to confuse the statements made, will be treated as a violation of the posting guidelines. I have given you far too much rope already.

In addition to the three links provided - a newspaper, a website with quotes, and the paper by Haines - referencing the claim of harassment or ridicule and a reluctance to file an official or public UFO report, it is self-evident that any professional like a pilot would worry about being labeled a crackpot for such a report. In this case, the pilot reported an object twice the size of an aircraft carrier. Klass said that he had seen Venus and Mars, and this was widely publicized. So the proof of what happens is already posted.

Since you already have video testimony, the complete report, and multiple sources, including an FAA division chief, all telling approximately the same story, you are free to make up your own mind. Perhaps they only saw Mars and Venus, as the skeptics claim.

If you want more documentation, then I suggest that you contact Dr. Haines or Dr. Maccabee.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #18
Ivan Seeking said:
Then why did you deny what is clearly stated in the video.
Please quote the statement(s) that you are referring to, and explain why you interpret them as you do. I have repeatedly asked you to do this.
Aether said:
Please show where in the video that you find such validation, and explain why you interpret it as such...Where in that segment is there any evidence of a stigma, real or imagined?...Maybe so, but I don't recall hearing anyone in the video say that. If you do, then please give the quote and the time of occurrence in the video...Ok, that might be evidence if presented; but I didn't see any of that in this video. Please give the quote and the time of occurrence in the video of the other pilot's statement if you find it.
Ivan Seeking said:
That's interesting, what aircraft do you suppose it was?
The FAA said this: "a second radar target near the JAL flight at the time of the reported sighting was not another aircraft but rather a split radar return from the JAL Boeing 747." I personally doubt that, but do not feel free to speculate further at this time. Whatever it was, it was not even in the same place and time in the sky as the lights seen by the flight crew of JAL1628.
Ivan Seeking said:
Correct, he is telling the story based on his research. The audio tapes were played in the other link and documented in the written report.
No, he is not. In the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beCAZVCpwrc" he said this:
Haines' written report said:
While FAA ground radar showed no returns other than the B-747 Capt. Terauchi turned on his digital (X band) weather radar (20 mile range) to horizontal pitch. “There it was, on the screen, a large, green, and a round object had appeared in seven or eight miles (13 kilometers to 15 kilometers) away, where the direction of the object was...
Ivan Seeking said:
Also, first you found his testimony acceptable, and now you don't; interesting. And as you have already pointed out, I posted the report from another source to help make this all clear.
The first time I watched his testimony I was only listening for "validation of the alleged stigma that concerns pilots", but found none. Sure, he appears to be implying that Terauchi was treated unfairly by the medical board of JAL; but he didn't actually say that, he didn't show any evidence for that, nor did he (or anyone else) quote Terauchi as even feeling that way much less showing any real evidence.
Ivan Seeking said:
The stigma is attached to making formal and public reports.
You have failed so far to show any evidence of this.
The original claim was that he was grounded because he saw and reported a UFO, and that this is an example of what worries pilots. I provided sources citing this allegation.
I do not consider "sources citing this allegation" as validation that the allegation is true. I asked you several times to "Please show where in the video that you find such validation, and explain why you interpret it as such" but you haven't done so.
But here, you have tried to divert the discussion by making the statement that there is no evidence in the aforementioned section of the video showing concern about the stigma of filing a report.
No I haven't. I asked you several times to "Please show where in the video that you find such validation, and explain why you interpret it as such" but you haven't done so.
You are clearly misrepresenting the original statement. The next such misrepresentation of this discussion, or of my post, or attempts to confuse the statements made, will be treated as a violation of the posting guidelines. I have given you far too much rope already.
I object to this. If you feel that I have misrepresented something, then you should make your case here on the merits.
In addition to the three links provided - a newspaper, a website with quotes, and the paper by Haines - referencing the claim of harassment or ridicule and a reluctance to file an official or public UFO report, it is self-evident that any professional like a pilot would worry about being labeled a crackpot for such a report. In this case, the pilot reported an object twice the size of an aircraft carrier. Klass said that he had seen Venus and Mars, and this was widely publicized. So the proof of what happens is already posted.
It is not self evident to me. I have found nothing whatsoever related to the case of JAL1628 to suggest that Terauchi was unfairly treated for reporting what he observed. On the contrary, all of the evidence points to the diligence and professionalism of the FAA, military, and the medical board of JAL who were involved in this incident. None of the other flight crew or radar operators failed to do their job, declined to answer the questions of investigators, expressed concern for their jobs, or suffered retribution from JAL or any other official agency. Here is where Terauchi lays his credibility on the line:
Terauchi said:
"...JAL1628, This is Anchorage center. Would you like to request scramble for confirmation?...Anchorage center, this is JAL1628, We would not request scramble." We turned down the offer quickly. I knew that in the past there was a U.S. military fighter called the Mustang that had flown up high for a confirmation and a tragedy had happened to it. Even the F-15 with the newest technology had no guarantee of safety against the creature with an unknown degree of scientific technology.
This is clearly unprofessional conduct/attitude for an airline captain.
Ivan Seeking said:
Since you already have video testimony, the complete report, and multiple sources, including an FAA division chief, all telling approximately the same story, you are free to make up your own mind. Perhaps they only saw Mars and Venus, as the skeptics claim.

If you want more documentation, then I suggest that you contact Dr. Haines or Dr. Maccabee.
I do not need any more documentation at this time. The flight crew of JAL1628 themselves explicitly and firmly denied that there is any correlation of the radar evidence with the lights that they saw.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #19
Okay, then let's take things one at a time.

My original comment was this.
Btw Aether, if you see the Pilot UFO sightings video in post #50 of the UFO Napster, you will find some validation of the alleged stigma that concerns pilots.

You replied
I watched the video, but did not see any "validation of the alleged stigma that concerns pilots".

Later I said this:
Ivan Seeking said:
Then why did you deny what is clearly stated in the video.

Aether said:
Maybe so, but I don't recall hearing anyone in the video say that. If you do, then please give the quote and the time of occurrence in the video.

Haines said:
I think a very interesting postscript to this event, involving this Japan Airlines 747, is what happened to Captain Terauchi after he landed. Well because of his report, his conscientiousness, to fill out a report form and all of the paperwork that goes with it, he was evaluated by the medical board of Japan Airlines. And he was asked to terminate his flying duties.
31:33-32:02

Why should I not penalize you for misinformation?
 
Last edited:
  • #20
Ivan Seeking said:
Okay, then let's take things one at a time.

My original comment was this.
Ivan Seeking said:
Btw Aether, if you see the Pilot UFO sightings video in post #50 of the UFO Napster, you will find some validation of the alleged stigma that concerns pilots.

You replied

Aether said:
I watched the video, but did not see any "validation of the alleged stigma that concerns pilots".

Later I said this:

Ivan Seeking said:
Then why did you deny what is clearly stated in the video.

Aether said:
Maybe so, but I don't recall hearing anyone in the video say that. If you do, then please give the quote and the time of occurrence in the video.
My last statement there was made in https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1258616&postcount=8". Please clarify your intentions here.

Ivan Seeking said:
Haines said:
I think a very interesting postscript to this event, involving this Japan Airlines 747, is what happened to Captain Terauchi after he landed. Well because of his report, his conscientiousness, to fill out a report form and all of the paperwork that goes with it, he was evaluated by the medical board of Japan Airlines. And he was asked to terminate his flying duties.

31:33-32:02

Why should I not penalize you for misinformation?

Aether said:
Ivan Seeking said:
He was grounded because he saw a UFO. That is the stigma.
That is not what was stated in the video. In the video, it was stated that he was grounded after a medical exam. Even if he was grounded because he saw a UFO (which is not what the video said) then that would still not be evidence that he was in fear of an alleged stigma at any time.

What I have said is accurate. It is not misinformation.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #21
Not acceptable. I quoted Haines. You are playing word games. If you had a point, you could have made it without the drama.

Next, you stated
Whatever Haines' submitted to JAL is irrelevant because he did not show us what he submitted, and there is no reason for us to believe that what he submitted had any influence over the decision by the medical board of JAL to restore Terauchi's flying status.

I stated:
If you want more documentation, then I suggest that you contact Dr. Haines or Dr. Maccabee.

then you stated:
I do not need any more documentation at this time.

Why should I not penalize you for being obnoxious and argumentative?
 
  • #22
Ivan Seeking said:
Not acceptable. I quoted Haines. You are playing word games. If you had a point, you could have made it without the drama.
I am not playing word games. The reason for Terauchi's grounding is contained within his medical record; which I said that I would like to see.
Aether said:
I would like to see Terauchi's medical records. I would like to see the actual reason given by the medical board of JAL for grounding him.
You are assuming that you know what reason the medical board had for grounding him.
Ivan Seeking said:
Next, you stated

Whatever Haines' submitted to JAL is irrelevant because he did not show us what he submitted, and there is no reason for us to believe that what he submitted had any influence over the decision by the medical board of JAL to restore Terauchi's flying status.

I stated:

If you want more documentation, then I suggest that you contact Dr. Haines or Dr. Maccabee.

then you stated:

I do not need any more documentation at this time.

Why should I not penalize you for being obnoxious and argumentative?
Your reply there was not originally presented as a direct reply to that statement of mine. Therefore, I did not recognize it as such.
 
  • #23
Aether said:
Your reply there was not originally presented as a direct reply to that statement of mine. Therefore, I did not recognize it as such.

Nor did you express any interest in obtaining additional information. Nonetheless, you arrived at your own conclusion.

Next point:

Aether said:
Whatever Haines' submitted to JAL is irrelevant because he did not show us what he submitted

Ivan Seeking said:
Correct, he is telling the story based on his research. The audio tapes were played in the other link and documented in the written report. Also, first you found his testimony acceptable, and now you don't; interesting. And as you have already pointed out, I posted the report from another source to help make this all clear.

No, he is not.

You then change the subject by citing a conflict in the reporting, which has nothing to do with that above.

Aether said:
No, he is not. In the video he said this:
Quote:
Haines video said:
Well I asked Captain Terauchi about the onboard RADAR...he had a weather RADAR on there...and he told me that he tried to image something on the weather RADAR and didn't receive any signals back from the aircraft now.
But on page 76 of his written report he said this:
Quote:
Haines' written report said:
While FAA ground radar showed no returns other than the B-747 Capt. Terauchi turned on his digital (X band) weather radar (20 mile range) to horizontal pitch. “There it was, on the screen, a large, green, and a round object had appeared in seven or eight miles (13 kilometers to 15 kilometers) away, where the direction of the object was...

What does this have to do with your initial objection cited above? The answer is: Nothing.

As for your objection, you yourself posted this without a reference:
Aether said:
What Terauchi actually said was that the object was not tracked on RADAR: "I checked with the Anchorage control tower. They said nothing was showing on their radar...Five minutes later, the object vanished in the gathering darkness, but soon another, much larger object, "several tens of times larger than a jumbo jet," which itself is some 70 meters long, appeared, bathed in blue light. Again the control tower radar registered nothing."

Are you suggesting that Terauchi has changed his story, or does your objection here no longer apply? Certainly his original reports are more reliable than his recall after twenty years.

In any event, Haine's statements in the written report agree with Maccabee's written report, which you seem to be found of.
Terauchi wrote [2], "I thought it would be impossible to find anything on an aircraft radar if a large ground radar did not show anything, but I judged the distance of the object visually and it was not very far. I set the digital weather radar distance to 20 (nautical) miles, radar angle to horizon (i.e., no depression angle). There it was on the screen. A large green and round object (here he refers to the image or "blip" on the radar screen) had appeared at 7 or 8 miles (13 km to 15 km) away, where the direction of the object was. We reported to Anchorage center that our radar caught the object within 7 or 8 miles in the 10 o'clock position. We asked them if they could catch it on ground radar but it did not seem they could catch it at all" [21]. During the January interview Terauchi recalled that the radar detection occurred about 15 minutes after he first saw the lights, i.e., at about 5:25 PM. He was only slightly in error.
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1316.htm
http://www.nicap.org/reports/jal1628-2.htm

So, for some reason the story from Haines has changed at some point. It could be that new information has come to light, it could be out of date, or it could be that Terauchi convinced Haines that he was originally mistaken. Also, there could have been translation errors [Japanese to English], memory errors, or perhaps additional analysis convinced Haines that what was seen on RADAR was not the UFO. If you were interested in getting the correct answer, you could do additional research, or you could contact Haines or Maccabee and request an explanation, which you have already stated doesn’t interest you. Perhaps this is another exception to your lack of interest in documentation?

As for your conclusions about the RADAR information, you are certainly entitled to draw your own conclusions. But, out of curiosity, what is your expertise in this area?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #24
Ivan Seeking said:
Nor did you express any interest in obtaining additional information. Nonetheless, you arrived at your own conclusion.
I do not need any additional information with respect to the radar evidence in this case because the flight crew themselves said that it doesn't correlate with the lights that they were reporting in the first place. I would like to see Terauchi's medical records. I would like to see the actual reason given by the medical board of JAL for grounding him.

Next point:

You then change the subject by citing a conflict in the reporting, which has nothing to do with that above.

What does this have to do with your initial objection cited above? The answer is: Nothing.
No, the answer is: you are assuming that Haines is "telling the story based on his research. The audio tapes were played in the other link and documented in the written report", but this isn't so. There is nothing in his written report about Terauchi's being grounded, and the account of the weather radar that he gave in the video contradicts the account that he gave in his written report.

Ivan Seeking said:
As for your objection, you yourself posted this without a reference:
Aether said:
What Terauchi actually said was that the object was not tracked on RADAR: "I checked with the Anchorage control tower. They said nothing was showing on their radar...Five minutes later, the object vanished in the gathering darkness, but soon another, much larger object, "several tens of times larger than a jumbo jet," which itself is some 70 meters long, appeared, bathed in blue light. Again the control tower radar registered nothing."
I gave that quote in https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1258696&postcount=12" reference that you gave. I am quoting from your reference there. These are all your references, I haven't cited any references of my own here.

Are you suggesting that Terauchi has changed his story, or does your objection here no longer apply? Certainly his original reports are more reliable than his recall after twenty years.
I am simply pointing out that the lights observed by the flight crew of JAL1628 were never tracked on radar.
Terauchi said:
I spoke to a doctor – he said it was an illusion
Ivan Seeking said:
So this says that he was grounded for going public. He was also told that the object he saw, that was tracked on RADAR, was an illusion.
Ivan Seeking said:
In any event, Haine's statements in the written report agree with Maccabee's written report, which you seem to be found of.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1316.htm
http://www.nicap.org/reports/jal1628-2.htm

So, for some reason the story from Haines has changed at some point. It could be that new information has come to light, it could be out of date, or it could be that Terauchi convinced Haines that he was originally mistaken. Also, there could have been translation errors [Japanese to English], memory errors, or perhaps additional analysis convinced Haines that what was seen on RADAR was not the UFO. If you were interested in getting the correct answer, you could do additional research, or you could contact Haines or Maccabee and request an explanation, which you have already stated doesn’t interest you. Perhaps this is another exception to your lack of interest in documentation?
Regarding the RADAR issue, I already have the correct answer. The FAA radar never picked up a second radar target. When asked by the radar operator if a second (military) radar target five-miles behind their aircraft was what they were reporting, the flight crew of JAL1628 replied that it was not. The flight engineer of JAL1628 said that he didn't think that the target seen by onboard weather radar was either.

As for your conclusions about the RADAR information, you are certainly entitled to draw your own conclusions. But, out of curiosity, what is your expertise in this area?
I have been inside radar rooms and control towers a few times, and while there the controllers sat me down at their displays and explained to me how they do their jobs.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #25
Ivan Seeking said:
Then why did you deny what is clearly stated in the video...he is telling the story based on his research. The audio tapes were played in the other link and documented in the written report.
Are you referring to the audio re-enactment at the start of the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beCAZVCpwrc" is a hoax.

At 5:19:28 (in real life) JAL1628 asked Anchorage Center "Do you have any traffic in front of us?", and they replied at 5:19:32 AARTC "JAL1628 heavy, Roger." However, in the video the response attributed to AARTCC is "Negative, we show no traffic in your area." The fact that there is traffic in front of JAL1628 could be important for understanding the rest of the radar evidence in this case and it raises the possibility that JAL1628 could be flying through the contrail(s) of air-traffic that is in front of them.

Then at 5:19:36 JAL1628 replies "Ah, roger and, ah, we [have] in sight, ah, two traffic (sic), ah, in front of us one mile about", but in the video this statement is further embellished with "...moving off left wing to our six-o'clock position". The intent of the producers of this video is clear: they have intentionally attributed false statements to the flight crew of JAL1628 in an attempt to substantiate their theory that the lights observed by the flight crew were tracked by ground radar.

A few seconds later, AARTCC asks: 5:20:04 "JAL1628 heavy, Roger. Maintain visual contact with your traffic and, ah, can you say the altitude of the traffic?" to which JAL1628 relies: 5:20:14 "Uh, almost [at] the same altitude". In the video, this exchange is presented this way: AARTCC asks: "JAL1628 Roger. Can you say the altitude of the traffic?", to which JAL1628 replies "Affirmative. Traffic now right overhead but moving rapidly behind us, it's right behind us!".

Ivan Seeking said:
Since you already have video testimony, the complete report, and multiple sources, including an FAA division chief, all telling approximately the same story, you are free to make up your own mind. Perhaps they only saw Mars and Venus, as the skeptics claim.

If you want more documentation, then I suggest that you contact Dr. Haines or Dr. Maccabee.
I have simulated the night-sky at the place and time where the flight crew of JAL1628 saw these lights. Here is a screenshot of the sky where Jupiter and Mars were visible to the flight crew (they were initially on a heading of about 215-degrees true): http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/7922/jal1628jupiteryw4.jpg , and here is a screenshot of the sky to flight crew's back: http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1842/jal1624moonvx6.jpg . I doubt that Jupiter and Mars are what the flight crew saw initially, but Terauchi may well have mis-interpreted these planets (near the end of his sighting) as the same UFOs receding into the far distance.

I have also simulated the flight of a Boeing 747 cargo jet along the same route as JAL1628 and on the same date and at the same time that they saw the lights they reported. Although I have turned off all weather, the simulator still shows frequent intermittent aurora in the sky above the aircraft. Here is a view out of the Captain's window of the simulated 747: http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/679/jal1628auroradu3.jpg . And here is a view from a (virtual) spotting plane looking back at the aircraft and showing where the moon was near the time that the flight crew first noticed something unusual, and the aircraft's moonlit contrail: http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2670/jal1628contrailiz3.jpg .

It seems plausible that JAL1628 may have flown up the moonlit contrail of another aircraft(s) ahead of them.
Terauchi said:
It's size was about the same size as the body of a DC-8 jet, and with numerous exhaust pipes.
Bruce Maccabee said:
...the lights were like flames coming out of multiple rocket exhaust ports arranged in two rectangular arrays...He compared them to "output exhaust" like the Challenger (as it took off). He described the colors as "amber and whitish". He stated that the "numerous lights" were "exhausts on the engines" and were "lined up all the way".
Special Agent James Derry said:
They stated that all they could see were the lights and at no time could they see the craft.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #26
I have requested records from the FAA Alaskan Region in Anchorage including a flight path chart and the actual radar tracking data related to this incident; this should indicate the actual flight path taken by JAL1628, and show what other aircraft if any were in front of JAL1628. I have also requested some arctic weather balloon data in order that we may know the winds, temperature, and humidity within the airmass through which JAL1628 was flying at this time. I suspect that the first officer's initial impression "thinking the lights were the jet exhausts of several military jets" may be fairly accurate, and this may allow us to estimate how long-lasting any contrails would have been, and how they might have drifted relative to the flight path of JAL1628.

In Haines' written report he describes the JAL1628 first officer's (FO) initial impression of the lights:
Haines said:
Thinking the lights were the jet exhausts of several military jets, the FO called Anchorage Center to inquire if other aircraft were in the area. They were told "...there were no other aircraft in the North area."
However, according to the actual transcript of this conversation as presented in Maccabee's written report, Anchorage Center's reply to this question was "JAL1628 heavy, roger." Note that at the time JAL1628's first officer made this call to AARTCC at 5:19:15, the lights had been under observation by the flight crew for about ten minutes and yet he was still "thinking the lights were the jet exhausts of several military jets."

Of course, the "moonlit contrail" theory could be further tested by actually flying through the same airspace under similar conditions of air-traffic, moonlight, wind, temperature, and humidity.
 
Last edited:
  • #27
Here is a high resolution thermal infrared satellite image snapped by NOAA-9 approximately 3.5 hours before JAL1628 crossed into Alaskan airspace from Canada on 11-18-1986 (UTC) (http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/6939/jal16282235qk4.jpg ). NOAA-10 also snapped a high-resolution image while the event was actually taking place, but that image is missing from the archive. A low resolution image from that pass of NOAA-10 is available, but it's quite grainy compared to this image. High resolution images are often lost when there is radio interference between this series of satellites and the ground stations which record the data in real time. Unfortunately, the receiving station for these satellites is in Fairbanks, Alaska and the record shows that radio reception was very bad in this area during this event. In the bottom right corner of the image shown here, you can see a tell-tale sign of radio interference. Low resolution images are saved in RAM onboard the satellite so that they can be transmitted later when hopefully radio reception is better, but the high resolution images are lost if they aren't received correctly the first time.

Upon inspection of these satellite images we can see that the estimated flight path of JAL1628 passed over a large low-hanging cloud which was located to the rear of the aircraft at 5:30:23 when Capt. Terauchi requested a change in heading to run away from a large object behind him.
Terauchi said:
We were just above the bright city lights and we checked the pale white light behind us. Alas! There was a silhouette of a gigantic spaceship. We must run away quickly!

5:30:23 JAL1628 - Request, ah, deviate, ah, ah, from, ah, object...
5:30:49 JAL1628 - It's, ah, quite big...
5:30:56 JAL1628 - It's, ah, very quite big, ah, plane.
It would be interesting to see what this large cloud would have looked like from the perspective of JAL1628's flight crew, and that may be possible using Microsoft's Flight Simulator.

Also visible in the satellite image:
1) A large contrail cloud measuring between about 1000 to 2000 meters wide.
2) Isolated storm cells (vertically developed clouds) approximately 200nm West of where JAL1628 picked up cloud-like returns on their onboard weather radar. These particular storm clouds may be too far away to be the same ones that were picked up on JAL1628's weather radar approximately four hours after this image was taken, but other storm cells could have developed closer to JAL1628's flight path in the intervening four hours.

These NOAA satellites also have sensors onboard that measure the solar wind in real time, and NOAA-10 did record a moderately strong surge of charged particles (coming from the Sun) as it passed over the arctic during the JAL1628 event. From those measurements, it is estimated that the solar wind was pumping an average total power of about 24 giga-Watts into the Northern Hemisphere during the JAL1628 event. This may be a clue that we should look more closely at auroral activity during this event. Unfortunately, the records of auroral activity posted online by the Geophysical Institute (University of Alaska, Fairbanks) do not go back as far as 1986.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #28
In case this thread continues, those participating should access the complete report at http://brumac.8k.com/JAL1628/JL1628.html . The complete report (which has been partially copied at several web sites) includes all the drawings by the crew and a complete reconstruction of the path of the aircraft.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #29
bruce maccabee said:
In case this thread continues, those participating should access the complete report at http://brumac.8k.com/JAL1628/JL1628.html . The complete report (which has been partially copied at several web sites) includes all the drawings by the crew and a complete reconstruction of the path of the aircraft.
Hello Dr. Maccabee, Thank-you for joining our discussion of the JAL 1628 UFO event.

This is from the postscript to your report:
Bruce Maccabee said:
Klaas attributed the airplane radar sighting to "an echo from thin clouds of ice crystals...Klass' explanation for the radar target is total conjecture on his part since the clouds were reported by the plane to be thin. Would there be any return at all from such clouds? One might ask, if there were so many clouds, why the radar didn't pick up numerous "blobby" returns on the right side and ahead of the aircraft as well as on the left where the "mothership" appeared to be. And, of course, Klass' explanation does not account for the "silhouette of a gigantic spaceship."
And in Fig. 6 of your report, we see the "Captain's sketch of how the objects moved with respect to the plane and how the radar echo appeared on the weather record display.".

If we knew the precise latitude, longitude, and heading of the aircraft at 5:24:53, then we could examine Phil Klass' explanation for the radar target in view of the contemporaneous satellite imagery from NOAA-9 & 10. I am still waiting to receive records from the FAA indicating the actual flight path taken by JAL1628, but if you have this information would you please tell me the latitudes and longitudes along the actual flight path for timestamps 5:09:20, 5:24:53, and 5:30:23? When I get this information I will post before and after satellite photos from NOAA-9 and 10 showing where the major cloud formations were relative to the actual flight path of the aircraft around the time of this sighting.

A weather balloon was released from Fairbanks at around 00:00 (UTC) and its measurements show that the wind at 35,000ft. was from 350 degrees at about 26kts. This wind would have caused the heading of the aircraft to be slightly different from the ground track shown by the radar data. The winds aloft must also be taken into account when estimating the drift of any clouds in the area between 02:25 (UTC) when the aircraft radar picked up a target, and 02:48 (UTC) when the most timely satellite image of Alaska was taken by NOAA-10.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #30
Aether said:
This wind would have caused the heading of the aircraft to be slightly different from the ground track shown by the radar data.

How do you arrive at that conclusion?
 
  • #31
I have to dig out buried records to find out if I have the coordinates of the plane. However, you should note that Klass' moonlight-on-clouds explanation was intended for the first two objects which appeared in front of the plane, with their unusual arrays of lights or "fires" and the captain said he felt "heat on his face." THat certainly doesn't square with moonlight on clouds.
Personally I think that the initial sighting of two objects in front of the plane, seen by the whole crew, is a "strong" UFO event. However the "silhouette of a gigantic spaceship" by the captain alone is a "weak" UFO event. Too bad the crew didn't speak English better.
 
  • #32
I just checked the paper posted at my web site. Figure 1 gives the geographic coordinates well enough to it should be possible to locate the plane to within several degrees. Don't know if I have more accurate readings for the times you requested.
 
  • #33
Your reference to the upper altitude wind at 350 deg and 25 kt means that the airplane would have a slight "crabbing angle" in order to read roghly southward. However, the plane was traveling at over 500 kt so the crabbing angle would be small.
 
  • #34
Ivan Seeking said:
Aether said:
This wind would have caused the heading of the aircraft to be slightly different from the ground track shown by the radar data.
How do you arrive at that conclusion?
bruce maccabee said:
Your reference to the upper altitude wind at 350 deg and 25 kt means that the airplane would have a slight "crabbing angle" in order to read roghly southward. However, the plane was traveling at over 500 kt so the crabbing angle would be small.
Here is a screenshot of the simulated aircraft's instrument panel at 5:24:53 (http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3994/jal1628022453mt1.jpg ). The "Horizontal Situation Indicator" is the second instrument from the left on the bottom row. The magnetic heading of the simulated aircraft at this time is 191-degrees; the white line pointing to about 188 degrees represents the ground-track of the aircraft; and the difference between these two (approximately 3-degrees) represents the "crabbing angle" due to the wind. Dr. Maccabee's report states that at this time the aircraft is "continuing along a straight line heading of 215 degrees (southwestward) toward Talkeetna" and a little bit later that "the plane began to turn from its magnetic heading of 182 (+/-1) degrees (about 215 degrees with respect to geographic north)." The magnetic declination at Fairbanks, AK is about 27 degrees east (see http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF14/1468.html). When we subtract this from the ground-track of the aircraft of 215 degrees true, we get a ground track of about 188 degrees magnetic; then when we add the crabbing angle necessary to compensate for the winds aloft, we arrive at an estimated magnetic heading for JAL1628 of 191 degrees (+/-1) which is consistent with the 191 degree magnetic heading shown in the simulation. The radar display shown in Fig. 6 of Dr. Maccabee's report should be interpreted as being oriented relative to the aircraft's true heading of 218 (+/-1) degrees.

bruce maccabee said:
I have to dig out buried records to find out if I have the coordinates of the plane.
If you can't easily place your hands on the records, then we could wait a few weeks to see what the FAA comes up with.

However, you should note that Klass' moonlight-on-clouds explanation was intended for the first two objects which appeared in front of the plane, with their unusual arrays of lights or "fires" and the captain said he felt "heat on his face." THat certainly doesn't square with moonlight on clouds. Personally I think that the initial sighting of two objects in front of the plane, seen by the whole crew, is a "strong" UFO event. However the "silhouette of a gigantic spaceship" by the captain alone is a "weak" UFO event. Too bad the crew didn't speak English better.
I ordered a copy of the Skeptical Inquirer issue containing Klass' article, but I haven't received that yet. I am considering the possibility that the first two objects might be consistent with aurora borealis. The issue of the magnetic heading of the aircraft is especially important in this regard. Referring to Figs. 2 & 3 of your report, we see that on a magnetic heading of 191 degrees for the aircraft the position of the objects in the Captain's window is consistent with a viewing angle of approximately 180 degrees (due south magnetic). Now, let's consider what is shown in Fig. 10 in light of this:
Carla Helfferich said:
In fact, statistically speaking, Ft. Yukon may be the aurora capital of the world...When the aurora is directly overhead, auroral rays look like glowing needles in some gigantic game of pick-up-sticks, except they are all tidily oriented. The apparent convergence of the rays as they extend upward is only a trick of perspective. The rays are actually parallel. The point toward which they seem to converge is the magnetic zenith...Nowadays there's one aurora-watching platform the old-timers couldn't have dreamed of: jet aircraft. Commercial planes can offer terrific views to passengers on late-night flights. Try for a window seat so you can see east-northeast---the left side if you're flying south...Thanks to the Earth's curvature, auroras over 1000 miles away are visible from a plane flying at 30,000 feet. Since most of the Earth's atmosphere is below cruising altitude on long flights, the air muffles little of the aurora's light; the aurora will actually be brighter seen from the airplane than from the ground. -- http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF10/1046.html
Since Capt. Terauchi did not report seeing any auroral activity during this sighting, then we may assume that if any such activity was present then it must have been misinterpreted by Terauchi. The Geophysical Institute operates auroral observatories at Fairbanks and Fort Yukon, but their online data archives do not extend back as far as 1986. There may or may not be records of auroral observations from the time and place of this event stored there offline. Terauchi's memory of feeling "heat on his face" may (or may not) simply be a natural physiological response to fear; we can examine that too.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #35
My estimated locations based on a map drawn by an FAA investigator at the time is at 5:09, 67:40 (67 deg, 40 minutes) lat and 142:20 (west) longitude; at 5:24, 65:50 by 145:20 and at 5:30, 65:10 by 140:30. I have not tried to be accurate to a minute of arc. These numbers are interpolations between markings on an aero map and should be good enough to look for correlations between clouds and sightings.
Regarding the aurora explanation, the lights in front of the aircraft were distinct lights like distant fires or exhaust pipes in two parallel vertical rows as shown in Terauchi's simple sketch made after the plane landed in Anchorage and again with more detail 2 months later (about) during the FAA interviews. There were two objects, apparently, each with these parallel arrays of lights. The captain estimated that for 2 minutes after their appearance in front of the aircraft they were one above the other. Then they shifted to side by side for about 10 minutes. As they traveled ahead of the airplane they rocked left and right in a correlated manner.

Klass' first explanation, by the was, was "extraterrestrial." In Feb 1987 CSICOP (now CSI) published its extraterrestrial explanation: Mars and Jupiter. It was only after my report was published in the IUR that Klass advanced his second theory.
 
  • #36
bruce maccabee said:
My estimated locations based on a map drawn by an FAA investigator at the time is at 5:09, 67:40 (67 deg, 40 minutes) lat and 142:20 (west) longitude; at 5:24, 65:50 by 145:20 and at 5:30, 65:10 by 146:30. I have not tried to be accurate to a minute of arc. These numbers are interpolations between markings on an aero map and should be good enough to look for correlations between clouds and sightings.
Thanks. I have plotted the last two points on an aeronautical chart here (http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/1/jal1628crazymtsfu8.jpg ), and I have projected a 7nm line 60 degrees to the left of the aircraft's heading which goes to approximately 65:44 by 145:12 using your lat/lon notation. This line happens to terminate right on top of the highest mountain peak in the "Crazy Mountains". Note: JAL1628 was inside of a Military Operations Area (MOA) when their weather radar made contact with the cloud-like target.

I have also plotted all four points on top of the NOAA-10 image of Alaska from 11-18-1986 02:48 (UTC) which can be viewed here (http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/4861/jal16280248xb4.jpg ). A small red arrow points to the location of the weather radar target, and lat/lons are labeled for the four corners of the image in case anyone wants to plot some additional points by interpolation. There are both static and non-static structures in the vicinity of the radar target, so I will post one or two additional images from before and/or after this time in order to help reveal which structures are static and which are in motion.
Regarding the aurora explanation, the lights in front of the aircraft were distinct lights like distant fires or exhaust pipes in two parallel vertical rows as shown in Terauchi's simple sketch made after the plane landed in Anchorage and again with more detail 2 months later (about) during the FAA interviews. There were two objects, apparently, each with these parallel arrays of lights. The captain estimated that for 2 minutes after their appearance in front of the aircraft they were one above the other. Then they shifted to side by side for about 10 minutes. As they traveled ahead of the airplane they rocked left and right in a correlated manner.
I have not concluded that aurora borealis explains the first two lights in front of the aircraft, but rather I am presenting this as a possibility for further discussion. I have ruled out volcanoes, earthquakes, and rockets launched from the Poker Flat Research Range (http://www.pfrr.alaska.edu/) however.
Klass' first explanation, by the was, was "extraterrestrial." In Feb 1987 CSICOP (now CSI) published its extraterrestrial explanation: Mars and Jupiter. It was only after my report was published in the IUR that Klass advanced his second theory.
Other that what is said in your report about them, I haven't seen either of his published explanations yet.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #37
The first explanation was presented in a ress release by CSICOP in Feb. 1987 if I recall correctly (see my paper). The second explanation was published in the CSICOP journal.
 
  • #38
bruce maccabee said:
The first explanation was presented in a ress release by CSICOP in Feb. 1987 if I recall correctly (see my paper). The second explanation was published in the CSICOP journal.
I searched the CSICOP website, but didn't find the press release. I ordered a Summer 1987 copy of the journal, but haven't received anything yet. Do you know of an online link to either of these documents? If not, then would you mind scanning your own copies and emailing them to me? And if you now have the FAA's radar tracking data handy, I would like to plot that data onto the aeronautical chart. If the FAA sends me that data, then I can do that then; but I could do that sooner if I could get a copy of the data that you have. Also, are you aware of any other evidence in this case that we might want to consider and which hasn't already been cited either in your report or elsewhere in this thread?

Aether said:
Here is a high resolution thermal infrared satellite image snapped by NOAA-9 approximately 3.5 hours before JAL1628 crossed into Alaskan airspace from Canada on 11-18-1986 (UTC) (http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/6939/jal16282235qk4.jpg ).
I have updated this satellite image to reflect the event coordinates given by Dr. Maccabee, and I have added data from the 3.74um and 10.82um thermal infrared bands in addition to the data from the 12.00um band. The new image is posted here http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/3953/jal16282235dd9.jpg . The actual flight path of the aircraft is roughly the same as the previously estimated flight path, but the timing of the important events along the flight path are significantly different. Warm surfaces appear darker in this image, and cold surfaces appear lighter. White surfaces are the coldest of all, and I suspect that we may be seeing a mixtue of both high-level clouds and glaciers in this photo that are colored white. The weather balloon data shows that the surface winds blowing across the Crazy Mountains were from about 90 degrees true at about 15kts. This appears to be generating standing wave clouds over these mountains at high altitude, and that might be what the flight crew of JAL1628 saw on their weather radar.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #39
If you send email address to brumac@compuserve.com I can email you a few scans. However, the raw radar data takes dozens of pages since it gives several readouts per minute. There are numerous other documents. The FAA sold a complete package for over $100 back in March, 1987.
 
  • #40
bruce maccabee said:
If you send email address to brumac@compuserve.com I can email you a few scans. However, the raw radar data takes dozens of pages since it gives several readouts per minute. There are numerous other documents. The FAA sold a complete package for over $100 back in March, 1987.
Thanks!

This satellite image may be the "smoking gun" in this case, literally: http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2290/jal16280248ke9.jpg . POTAT is the point where JAL1628 crossed into Alaska from Canada; the aircraft made a 15-degree turn to the left at about 5:09pm local time; and TKA is the VOR station at Talkeetna toward which JAL1628 was flying during the entire 10-15 minutes that the crew was observing the first set of lights. The blackened portions of sky southeast of Talkeetna appears to be direct evidence that a solar flare hit that region of Alaska immediately before this image was taken at 5:48pm local time by NOAA-10. The black color indicates that a large region of Alaska appears to be quite hot to the satellite. I don't know of any other possible explanation for this other than that this represents the afterglow from a solar flare that heated the upper atmosphere there.

Bruce Maccabee said:
In the subsequent interviews with a translator the colors mentioned were yellow, amber and green.
The Weather Doctor said:
Each atmospheric gas glows with specific colors. For example, atomic oxygen is responsible for two primary auroral colors: green-yellow (wavelength of 557.7 nanometres (nm)) and red (630.0 nm). The brightest and most common auroral color, a brilliant green-yellow, is produced by those oxygen atoms at roughly 100 km (60 miles) altitude. -- http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/elements/aurora.htm
The next step is to calculate the lat/lon required for an auroral emission at an altitude of 100km to appear at the same location in Terauchi's windscreen as shown in Dr. Maccabee's Figs. 2 & 3; and see if this falls within the blacked-out region of the satellite photo.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #41
Aether said:
This satellite image may be the "smoking gun" in this case, literally: http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2290/jal16280248ke9.jpg ...The black color indicates that a large region of Alaska appears to be quite hot to the satellite. I don't know of any other possible explanation for this other than that this represents the afterglow from a solar flare that heated the upper atmosphere there.
The blackened area of this photo corresponds to Prince William Sound. This area looks darker in this photo than in any of the others that I have looked at, but it is also noticeably dark in the other photos and has a similar shape. It may appear warm to the satellite simply because the sound connects to the Pacific Ocean.
The next step is to calculate the lat/lon required for an auroral emission at an altitude of 100km to appear at the same location in Terauchi's windscreen as shown in Dr. Maccabee's Figs. 2 & 3; and see if this falls within the blacked-out region of the satellite photo.
An auroral emission 100km above the ground would be in about the right place in Terauchi's windscreen (e.g., having an elevation of between four and six degrees) if it was between 313-385nm away, and the middle of Prince William Sound was about 380nm from JAL1628 and about 20-degrees to the left of center at 5:18.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #42
Aether said:
The FAA said this: "a second radar target near the JAL flight at the time of the reported sighting was not another aircraft but rather a split radar return from the JAL Boeing 747." I personally doubt that, but do not feel free to speculate further at this time. Whatever it was, it was not even in the same place and time in the sky as the lights seen by the flight crew of JAL1628.
I doubted this at first because I thought that the FAA was attempting to explain a series of anomalous primary radar contacts as a "split return". However, upon further review of Dr. Maccabee's report it seems clear to me now that what the FAA is talking about here is a situation where the transponder return is temporarily separated from the primary return. I still haven't seen any numerical radar contact data records, but I no longer have any doubt that those records (the numerical radar contact data records that were released to the public in the 1987 FAA report) will be shown to be consistent with the FAA's explanation when we finally see them. I will comment more on this issue later after I have reviewed the FAA's original numerical radar contact data records. I would also like to compare the numerical radar contact data records contained within John Callahan's computer printout with the records released by the FAA in their 1987 report; however, I'm not sure how to obtain a copy of John Callahan's data.

In the meantime, Dr. Maccabee has shared with me a hand-drawn plot of JAL1628's ground track, and I have plotted some (not all) of those points on this satellite image: http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/6390/jal1628mothershipcp3.jpg . The four blue arrows that I have drawn on top of the satellite image all point to a big cloud that is approximately 30nm in diameter. The first blue arrow (near the timestamp 5:31:08) represents the direction in which the flight crew were looking when they asked the air traffic controller for permission to turn right to avoid an object ahead of them:

5:30:23 JAL1628 Request, ah, deviate, ah, ah, from, ah, object, ah, request heading two four zero.

5:30:49 JAL1628 It's, ah, quite big...

5:30:56 JAL1628 It's, ah, very quite big, ah, plane.

Then at timestamp 5:44:17 the flight crew gives us a fix on the object from another position and from another viewing angle:

5:44:13 ARTCC JAL1628 heavy. . Do you still have the traffic?

5:44:17 JAL1628 Ah, affirmative, ah, nine o'clock.

And finally, at timestamp 5:48:34 (while NOAA-10 was recording this satellite image) the flight crew reports a third fix on the object from a third viewing angle:

5:48:31 AARTCC JAL1628 heavy, sir, Say the position of your traffic.

5:48:34 JAL1628 Ah, now, ah, ah, moving to, ah, around 10 miles now, ah, ah, position, ah seven, ah, eight o'clock, 10 miles.

Many satellite images of this cloud were taken over a three day period while it was stationary in roughly the same position shown on this image. It appears that a low warm cloud blew in from the direction of the ocean earlier in the day (see the medium-dark red band of clouds in the lower left quadrant of the photo) and then stopped in the position shown in this photo. Then Terauchi's "mothership" cloud rose up by auto-convection to JAL1628's altitude.

Here is a high resolution satellite photo of the area that was taken about fifteen hours later, but which shows Terauchi's "mothership" cloud more clearly:
http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/1949/jal1628mothership2jz0.jpg

From this, I conclude that this cloud is in fact what Terauchi saw and reported as the "mothership" and as "the silhouette of a gigantic spaceship".

Terauchi said:
They asked us several times if there were clouds near our altitude. We saw thin and spotty clouds near the mountain below us, no clouds in mid-to-upper air, and the air current was steady.
Bruce Maccabee said:
The repeated questions about the clouds [from 5:22:11 to 5:23:05] caused Terauchi to wonder why the controller was so interested in clouds. He speculated, "Perhaps the controllers were concerned that an increased use of improved laser (sic) beams using (sic) clouds was creating moving images." (Here Terauchi refers to laser beams illuminating the clouds. Of course, there were no sufficiently powerful visible laser beams in the "wilds" of Alaska at that time...nor are there now.)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #43
Dr. Maccabee has sent me copies of several documents which help shed light on several issues that were discussed earlier in https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=158668" was split.

One of these documents was a copy of an article from the Philadelphia Enquirer May 24, 1987 issue. Within this article Capt. Terauchi is quoted as saying that he has seen at least one other "mothership" before while flying but that he wasn't feeling well at the time, and since the object was too "weird" he ignored it. Is there anybody here who would not call Capt. Terauchi in for a medical exam after reading this if you were on the medical board of Japan Airlines?
Philadelphia Enquirer said:
...And five years ago, on a cargo flight south of Formosa, "when we start climb we saw lefthand side big mothership." But he said it was too "weird," he wasn't feeling well, and he ignored it.


Ivan Seeking said:
As for airline personnel being allowed to take photos, it has long been claimed by pilots that to discuss UFOs is to put one's career in jeopardy. Most pilots only speak out after retiring. Note for example that in the case of http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...+JAL+1628+UFO+Alaska&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=8, the pilot had to sue the airlines in order to get his job back. He did win in court because of the evidence available to support his claim. So in the airline industry especially, there is reason to be concerned about your job if you see a UFO.

It is all part of the lunacy of the stigma attached to such reports.

Aether said:
See one, or report one? Are you assuming this, or do you have statistics on the motives of pilots who choose not to report UFO sightings?

I recently asked a retired air-traffic controller (who is also still-licensed as a commercial pilot, and who has many years of experience handling air traffic at both Andrews Air Force Base and Washington National airport) about "why pilots and air traffic controllers are reluctant to report UFO sightings", and he didn't say anything at all about "the stigma attached to such reports". He said that "the government doesn't want this information given to the public".

Ivan Seeking said:
My statements are based on many statements made by pilots over the last twenty years. I'm sure that plenty of quotes can be found at links in the Napster. I also cited a specific example of a pilot who lost his job over a UFO report. Obviously the problems only happen if one reports what one sees. Also, pilots and air traffic controllers aren't privy to classified information so I doubt the conspiracy angle. Perhaps in some cases the military asks people to keep quiet, but it is hard to understand how that would happen since the government no longer investigates UFO reports.

Philadelphia Enquirer said:
A message also went out over the FAA employee's "code-a-phones" at work, warning that reporters would hound them on this story and that FAA policy required them to go through public affairs.
A pilot does his duty by avoiding collisions with unknown objects, and then reporting what he sees to FAA controllers. An FAA controller does his duty by informing other pilots of the presence of unknown objects, and then passing any information along to public affairs that he thinks the public should know about.


Ivan Seeking said:
UFO Incident Involving a Japanese B747 in the Alaskan Region John Callahan - Former Division Chief of Accidents and Investigations for the FAA http://www.freedomofinfo.org/science.html
Although I still don't have all of the documentation that was released to the public by the FAA in 1987, I have now at least seen a copy of the flight path chart that was produced by FAA experts showing actual radar data in this case plotted onto an aeronautical chart. From this I conclude that the statements made by John Callahan in this video are not relevant here.
John Callahan said:
...so what I am going to tell you is about an event that never happened...who are you going to believe, your lying eyes or the government?
The FAA released all of the data that they had in this case to the public in 1987 including copies of the audio tape(s), transcripts of those tape(s), about 100 pages of radar data records, and professionally made charts of the aircraft's flight path and related radar contacts.
...everybody standing there saw the target, they all saw the same target you just saw, they saw the same target that the administrator saw, ok? The military controller saw the target. The FAA has to kill the story, so the FAA says after we analyzed all this data it is our conclusion that it was a split beacon...the pilot's don't see split beacons, the pilots don't see ghost targets.
Pilots don't see split beacons, but air traffic controllers do. Most of the anomalies noted in the radar data are in fact either "Split beacon" or "Beacon with offset primary". These are not interpretations by anybody, these are the facts of what the radar system actually recorded. This particular type of anomaly (e.g., beacon-related) can't shed any light whatsoever on the question of whether or not there was ever a UFO near to JAL1628, but rather it tends to explain how an air traffic controller(s) might be fooled into thinking (momentarily) that they might have seen something that was never really there. In fact, the audio tapes and transcripts clearly show that none of the air traffic controllers in this case ever thought that they had good radar contact on anything other than known aircraft; and that they were simply doing their best to try and be absolutely sure not to too hastily disregard something as clutter/noise that might be significant.

The FAA records do show that there are several examples of another type of anomaly in the radar data called "Beacon with merged and offset primary". These might really be interesting, but there is no way to tell from just looking at the charts and tables that I have seen so far. Dr. Maccabee does have the complete records though, so I expect that we will soon know more about these "Beacon with merged and offset primary" anomalies.


Ivan Seeking said:
Since you already have video testimony, the complete report, and multiple sources, including an FAA division chief, all telling approximately the same story, you are free to make up your own mind. Perhaps they only saw Mars and Venus, as the skeptics claim.

If you want more documentation, then I suggest that you contact Dr. Haines or Dr. Maccabee.
Dr. Maccabee also sent me the CSICOP news release where Philip J. Klass proposed his theory about Jupiter and Mars. Since this document doesn't seem to be available elsewhere online, I have copied the full-text below for future reference (was it really necessary to discuss the bombing of Japan by B-29's during WW-II here? :rolleyes:)

Here is my estimate of what Jupiter and Mars would have looked like to Capt. Terauchi, assuming an undistorted atmosphere, between about 5:09 and 5:30: http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/5271/jal1628jupitermarsgb6.jpg . Terauchi couldn't have seen these planets through his front windshield, but rather he would have had to look through his middle window to see them. Here is a virtual reality view (generated using Microsoft's Flight Simulator X) of the pilot of a 747 looking through his middle window: http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/767/jal1628pilotwindowsvl1.jpg .

In view of Fig. 5A from Dr. Maccabee's report, we should consider whether or not these two planets might account for the "flat pale white lights" and the "two white florescent-like lights" that Terauchi described seeing from the windows on his left side. Fig. 8 also seems to suggest that he saw the "mothership" bracketed by these two lights at some time between 5:30 and 5:50 when the "mothership" sighting was in progress. Weather balloon data shows that during this event the aircraft was flying within a temperature inversion layer. So, I will ask Dr. Maccabee, who is an optical physicist, could this inversion layer have caused these two planets to appear distorted as shown in Fig. 5A of your report?

Here is some of the data from a weather balloon that was released at Fairbanks around 0000 UTC on 11-18-1986. JAL1628 was flying at an altitude of about 10668 meters.

Altitude in meters, temperature in degrees-C, wind direction, wind speed in meters/second
135, -17.5,,
195, -15.3,,
1436, -13.7, 090, 8.0
2909, -16.9, 075, 7.0
5360, -32.5, 040, 9.0
6890, -44.1, 020, 7.0
8760, -57.5, 020, 8.0
9920, -54.7, 005, 11.0
11350, -53.9, 350, 13.0
13210, -51.1, 335, 17.0
15860, -50.3, 325, 22.0
18150, -56.5, 305, 23.0
20270, -58.7, 305, 27.0
23440, -63.9, 305, 35.0
25910, -65.7, 300, 40.0


Philadelphia Enquirer said:
When the story about Klass' Jupiter theory came over the wires at the Anchorage Daily News, Hal Bernton called up Terauchi. The pilot was adamant--he had recognized Jupiter during the flight, and whatever had tailed him was no planet.

Klass laughed when told that the pilot had rejected his explanation: "This is par for the course. When a person is a dedicated UFO believer, as the pilot is and was, he'll always deny a prosaic explanation. You know, of course, that he's a UFO repeater.

CSICOP News Release 01-22-1987 said:
EXTRATERRESTRIAL OBJECT INVOLVED IN JAPAN AIR LINES PILOT'S UFO SIGHTING, ACCORDING TO LEADING UFO INVESTIGATOR

Buffalo, N.Y. /--/An investigation of the incident in which an Unidentified Flying Object reportedly paced a Japan Air Lines 747 enroute to Anchorage, Alaska, for nearly 40 minutes on Nov. 18, 1986, reveals that at least one extraterrestrial object was involved--the planet Jupiter, and possibly another--Mars.

The investigation was conducted by Philip J.Klass, an internationally recognized skeptical UFOlogist and chairman of CSICOP's UFO Subcommittee. His investigations have yielded prosaic explanations for many famous UFO cases during the past 20 years.

At the time the UFO incident began near Ft. Yukon, the JAL airliner was flying south in twilight conditions so that an extremely bright Jupiter (-2.6 magnitude) would have been visible on the pilot's left-hand side, where he first reported seeing the UFO, according to Klass. Jupiter was only 10 degrees above the horizon, making it appear to the pilot to be at roughly his own 35,000 ft. altitude. Mars, slightly lower on the horizon, was about 20 degrees to the right of Jupiter but not as bright.

Although the very bright Jupiter, and less bright Mars, had to be visible to JAL Capt. Kenjyu Terauchi, the pilot never once reported seeing either--only a UFO that he described as being a "white and yellow" light in his initial radio report to Federal Aviation Administration controllers at Anchorage.

Many of the colorful details of the incident carried by the news media, largely based on the six-week old recollections of the,pilot of JAL Flight 1628, are contradicted by a transcript of radio messages from the pilot to FAA controllers while the incident was in progress.

For example, news media accounts quoting the 747 pilot said that when he executed a 360 deg. turn the UFO had followed him around during the turn. But this claim is contrary to what the pilot told FAA controllers at the time.

During the pilot's media interviews, he "remembered" some colorful details which did not really occur, judging from his earlier radio reports to the FAA, and Terauchi "forgot" several important events that would challenge his claim of being paced by an unknown craft.

For example, that another airliner, United Airlines Flight 69, heading north from Anchorage to Fairbanks, had agreed to deviate slightly from its course to allow FAA radar controllers to vector it to the vicinity of the JAL 747, while maintaining safe altitude and distance separation, to see if the United crew could spot the UFO.

At approximately 4:48 p.m., as the United flight neared JAL, Terauchi reported that the UFO was to his far left an about 10 miles distant--which was in the direction of Jupiter. At roughly 4:50 p.m., the United pilot reported he now could see JAL but a short time later the United pilot said: "I don't see anybody around him."

Shortly afterwards, the JAL pilot reported that the UFO now was "just ahead of United" which is where Jupiter would appear to be from Terauchi's location. The United pilot would not notice Jupiter because it was to his right, while his attention was focused on JAL which was to his far left.

Shortly afterwards, the pilot of a USAF C-130 transport in the area volunteered to be vectored to the vicinity of the JAL airliner to see if he could spot any object near the airliner. The C-130 crew readily spotted the JAL 747, but they too could not see any object in its vicinity.

"This is not the first time that an experienced pilot has mistaken a bright celestial body for a UFO, nor will it be the last," Klass said. In one case, investigated by the late Dr. J. Allen Hynek in the early 1950s, a military pilot chased a "UFO" for more than 30 minutes, which turned out to be the bright star Capella. In this case, as with the recent Alaska incident, a radar operator reported briefly seeing an unknown blip on his radar scope.

During World War II, B-29 pilots flying at night from the Mariana Islands in the Pacific to bomb Japan reported being paced by a mysterious "ball-of-fire" which B-29 gunners tried, unsuccessfully, to shoot down. Some Army Air Corps intelligence officers suspected the object was a long-range Japanese aircraft equipped with a powerful searchlight, to illuminate the B-29s so they could be attacked by fighter aircraft, but such attacks never materialized. Finally, the mysterious glowing object that seemed to pace the B-29s was identified. It was Venus, which was particularly bright at the time.

More than 25% of all UFOs reported during a 15-month period to the Center for UFO Studies (created in 1973 by Hynek) turned out upon investigation to be a bright planet or star. Some eyewitnesses reported that the celestial UFO "darted up and down," or "wiggled from side-to-side," and a variety of shapes were described.

In the Capt. Terauchi's recollected account to the media six weeks after the incident, he described seeing two small UFOs in addition to a large one. But the transcript reveals that the pilot only briefly reported seeing two lights, not three, and thereafter he referred only to one in his radio communications with FAA controllers.

News media accounts of the UFO incident stressed that one unidentified object had been detected by a USAF radar in the vicinity of the 747's "blip", which seemed to confirm the pilot's visual sighting. However, radars operating in mountainous terrain such as that where the UFO incident occurred can receive spurious echoes when radar energy bouncing off an aircraft is reflected a second time from mountains and snow-covered terrain.

When the pilot first reported seeing the UFO, FAA traffic controllers--ever concerned over the risk of a mid-air collision--requested that radar controllers in an Air Force Regional Operations Command Center examine their displays to see if they could spot an unknown intruder. A radar operator there spotted something, but was unsure whether it might be a spurious echo. However, the echo appeared only briefly and was behind the 747 whereas the pilot had reported that the UFO was in front or to the left of his aircraft.

Later, as the JAL 747 came within range of an FAA radar at the Fairbanks International Airport, a radar controller there was asked if he could spot another object in the vicinity of the airliner. Although the JAL pilot still was reporting a UFO, the controller replied that there were no unknown blips in the vicinity of JAL 1628.

On Jan. 11, the Capt. Terauchi again reported seeing a UFO while flying in approximately the same part of Alaska. But after an FAA spokesman in Anchorage suggested that this UFO might only be lights from a distant village bouncing off clouds, the JAL pilot acknowledged that this could explain his second UFO sighting.

The transcript of radio communications during the Nov. 18 incident indicates that there were broken clouds at or below Flight 1628's altitude, which may help explain Capt. Terauchi's mistaking Jupiter for a UFO.

Even a scientifically trained former Navy officer, who would later become President, once mistook a bright planet for a UFO. The "victim" was Jimmy Carter and the incident occurred about 7:15 p.m. on Jan. 6, 1969, following his talk to the Lions Club of Leary, Ga. As Carter later recalled the incident, he spotted the UFO in the west at an elevation he estimated to be about 30 deg. An investigation conducted by Robert Sheaffer, vice-chairman of CSICOP's UFO Subcommittee, was complicated by the fact that Carter had recalled an erroneous date for the incident. Once Sheaffer managed to determine the correct date, he found that a brilliant planet Venus was to the west and about 25 deg. above the horizon, where Carter reported seeing the UFO.

Klass credits astronomers Nick Sanduleak and C.B. Stephenson, of Case Western Reserve University, in Cleveland, for their valuable assistance in computing the positions and bearings of bright celestial bodies relative to the 747 airliner at the time of the incident.

"My suspicions that this UFO might be a bright celestial body were prompted by the fact that the pilot reported seeing the object for more than 30 minutes," Klass said. "Past experience has shown that when a UFO remains visible for many minutes, it almost always proves to be a celestial object." Another clue was the fact that when Flight 1628 descended 4,000 ft., the UFO still appeared to be at the airliner's altitude. At Jupiter's great distance, a change of 4,000 ft., the UFO still appeared to be at the airliner's altitude. At Jupiter's great distance, a change of 4,000 ft. in aircraft altitude would produce no noticeable change in the planet's apparent altitude.

Klass, who was a senior editor with Aviation Week & Space Technology magazine for nearly 35 years until his partial-retirement this past June, has been investigating famous UFO cases as a hobby for more than 20 years. His most recent book on the subject is "UFOs: The Public Deceived," published by Prometheus Books, Buffalo, N.Y.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #44
Aether, there is a difference between radio communications and an official UFO report. Obviously they discuss it on the radio if they ask for confirmation of local traffic. Your inability to get this straight makes me take the rest with a grain of salt.
 
  • #45
Ivan Seeking said:
Aether, there is a difference between radio communications and an official UFO report. Obviously they discuss it on the radio if they ask for confirmation of local traffic. Your inability to get this straight makes me take the rest with a grain of salt.
What is the OMB number for the official UFO report form?
 
  • #46
I don't know. What is the IRS form for depletion of property?
 
  • #47
Ivan Seeking said:
I don't know. What is the IRS form for depletion of property?
Then let's assume that there isn't one, and that there isn't any such thing as an official UFO report which explains my inability to "get this straight", ok? http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f4562.pdf" is the IRS form for depreciation and amortization, and the OMB number is listed at the top right as OMB No. 1545-0172.

btw, Haines' video has been pulled down due to copyright issues. Within that video I recall him saying that Terauchi "filled out a report and all the paperwork that goes with it". I haven't seen or heard of any such report anywhere else, only that he was interviewed by federal agents.

So, what are "official UFO reports"?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #48
JANAP 146 required reporting by commercial pilots. This was a military document. And there is certainly official reporting esp in the event of a near collision. Beyond that, there is another video posted in post #50 of the Napster [the one nominated by PIT2] in which two more pilots mention the concerns and reluctance to report UFOS. I have personally heard at least dozens of pilots make similar comments over the years. And frankly, the fact that you can't understand why any professional would hesistate to file such a report tells me that you are not being reasonable. This is self-evident to almost anyone.

The FAA is concerned any time that aviation safety might be affected. If the observation does not affect safety, the FAA isn't interested. I believe that JANAP 146E relieved commercial pilots of reporting responsiblities imposed by JANAP 146.
http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap7/aim0706.html


I was going to let you continue until you started in on this again. Thread locked.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top