News The SM masters having fun in Iraqs prison

[Njorl]

Who cares what Lowell Ponte thinks? In his article, the fool refers to The Nation as "ultra-leftist", and conservative Evan Thomas as a "leftist". His comments on Hersh's credibility are actually quite sparse. Some are referenced to believable sources, others are referenced to more fringe sources. Most of his piece is just character assassination. He should take his own advice:

"Obsession and hate are dangerous traits in any journalist. It destroys a reporter’s perspective and ability to see all sides of a story. And it tempts a journalist, consciously and unconsciously, to ignore or bend facts in order to paint a black hat on those he has decided in advance are villains. This, say his critics, is Hersh’s great failing."

Njorl

 

[pelastration]

US troops 'abused Iraq reporters'

Fresh allegations have emerged in Iraq regarding the alleged mistreatment of Iraqi detainees by US troops.

The Reuters news agency says three of its local staff were subjected to sexually degrading treatment after being detained in January.

...

'Rape' threats

Reuters said it was unveiling the ordeal of its employees because the US military had concluded there was no evidence they had been abused - and in the wake of the scandal involving the mistreatment of detainees at Abu Ghraib prison.

The Reuters employees were allegedly abused at two US military bases, after being detained for covering the shooting down of a US helicopter near the flashpoint city of Falluja.

Baghdad-based cameraman Salem Ureibi, Falluja-based freelance TV journalist Ahmad Mohammad Hussein al-Badrani and driver Sattar Jabar al-Badrani were held for three days before being released without charge.

They said they were forced to make demeaning gestures as soldiers laughed, taunted them and took photographs.

Among other things, they were allegedly deprived of sleep, had bags placed over their heads, were kicked and hit and forced to remain in stress positions for long periods.

"When I saw the Abu Ghraib photographs, I wept," Mr Ureibi said on Tuesday. "I saw they had suffered like we had."

He said soldiers told him they wanted to have sex with him, and he was afraid he would be raped.
...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3726675.stm

 

[pelastration]

1.Officers Say U.S. Colonel at Abu Ghraib Prison Felt Intense Pressure to Get Inmates to Talk
By DOUGLAS JEHL Published: May 19, 2004

WASHINGTON, May 18 — As he took charge of interrogations at Abu Ghraib prison last September, Col. Thomas M. Pappas was under enormous pressure from his superiors to extract more information from prisoners there, according to senior Army officers.

"He likened it to a root canal without novocaine," a senior officer who knows Colonel Pappas said of his meetings with his superiors in Baghdad. Often, the officer said, Colonel Pappas would emerge from discussions with two of them, Maj. Gen. Barbara Fast and Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, without a word, but "clutching his face as if in pain."

Colonel Pappas, commander of the 205th Intelligence Brigade, relocated his headquarters from Camp Victory, near the Baghdad airport, to Abu Ghraib just days after a visit to Iraq last fall by another high-ranking Army officer, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller. General Miller encouraged the Army colonel to have his unit work more closely with military police to set the conditions for interrogations.

By the end of September, Colonel Pappas had asserted control of Tier 1 of the prison's "hard site," used for interrogation of Iraqi prisoners, which he maintained until February, when he and his brigade were transferred to Germany at the end of their yearlong tour. After Nov. 19, by order of General Sanchez, Colonel Pappas and his brigade took command of all of Abu Ghraib prison, taking over authority from the 800th Military Police Brigade.

Now Colonel Pappas, who in sworn testimony to a senior Army investigator acknowledged that his subordinates directed military police officers to strip Iraqi prisoners naked and to shackle them, is the highest-ranking officer on active duty known to be under investigation for the abuses committed at Abu Ghraib prison.
...
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/19/p...00&en=a141199a5f9cb73c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

---
2. I wanted to know more about this Col. Thomas M. Pappas.

This simple google search http://www.google.com/search?q=Col.+Thomas+M.+Pappas&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 brings you to some interesting information, some classified that may bring your computer in 'warned' monitoring mode by MI. If you click "OK" on the warning window you are entered automatically. There is not button to cancel!
Can opening such page make you a potential "illegal combatant"? Sure. It's part of the War against terrorism, and the Cyber War is part of that "war". By looking to such a page you can be jailed without lawyer and civil right for an unlimited period.

Don't forget: The Patriot Act is to protect your freedom!

 

[kat]

---
2. I wanted to know more about this Col. Thomas M. Pappas.

This simple google search http://www.google.com/search?q=Col.+Thomas+M.+Pappas&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 brings you to some interesting information, some classified that may bring your computer in 'warned' monitoring mode by MI. If you click "OK" on the warning window you are entered automatically. There is not button to cancel!
Can opening such page make you a potential "illegal combatant"? Sure. It's part of the War against terrorism, and the Cyber War is part of that "war". By looking to such a page you can be jailed without lawyer and civil right for an unlimited period.

Don't forget: The Patriot Act is to protect your freedom!

Huh? Do you have a link to this "classified" informaiton you googled?...lol, I feel like humming the doo doo do doo's of the old "twighlight zone" shows.

BTW-I thought the Patriot Act was to protect MY freedoms as an American..not YOURS as a hostile Euro! :surprise:

 

[Njorl]

Huh? Do you have a link to this "classified" informaiton you googled?...lol, I feel like humming the doo doo do doo's of the old "twighlight zone" shows.

BTW-I thought the Patriot Act was to protect MY freedoms as an American..not YOURS as a hostile Euro! :surprise:

There was a rather tragically comical incident regarding a report of the prisoner abuse. The report was classified, but it was posted on the web, at FOX, I believe. The DoD asked FOX to remove it. They refused of course. They did, however, put up a warning that the report was classified, and that government employess would be violating the law to read it. High ranking people at the DoD did not see the humiliating nature of this warning, and it stayed up for a while. They thought it was a good thing. Since then the warning itself has become a popular joke, and has appeared on other web sites.

Njorl

 

[pelastration]

Huh? Do you have a link to this "classified" informaiton you googled?...lol, I feel like humming the doo doo do doo's of the old "twighlight zone" shows.

BTW-I thought the Patriot Act was to protect MY freedoms as an American..not YOURS as a hostile Euro! :surprise:

1. The link (at your own risk!): http://images.google.com/images?q=Col. Thomas M. Pappas&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi. Click on the image.

2. . That's was I said: "... your freedom".

 

[revelator]

Why would the troops take pictures of themselves torturing and abusing the prisoners? that's stupid, too stupid.

PsyOps. Psychological Operations. Interrogations go a lot easier if you break a person's will. One of the involved soldiers has been reported as saying, that they were to take the pictures, and tell the Iraqi prisoners that these pictures were being shown to their famliles.

 

[pelastration]

new pictures of abuse:
(1) Charles Graner posing over the body of a dead Iraqi detainee
(2) Sabrina Harman strikes a similar pose. A patch of blood can be seen on the dead man's right temple

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/3689167.stm

 

[Simon666]

new pictures of abuse:
(1) Charles Graner posing over the body of a dead Iraqi detainee
(2) Sabrina Harman strikes a similar pose. A patch of blood can be seen on the dead man's right temple

I'm waiting what the excuse of the apologists for this will be this time, a rehersal for a new Disney on Ice show based on "Weekend at Bernie's"?

A naked prisoner simulating sex is humiliating, but humiliation does not constitute torture.

Oh yes it does, and even if it doesn't, how about a broomstick up your arse? Want one?

 

[Adam]

Humiliation: see Geneva Convention.

 

[pelastration]

Ooops

Report Links U.S. General to Iraq Prison Abuse Case

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A lawyer for a soldier charged in the Abu Ghraib abuse case said a captain at the Iraqi prison has charged that Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez was present during some unspecified "interrogations and/or allegations of the prisoner abuse," The Washington Post reported on Sunday.

Citing a recording of a military hearing obtained by the newspaper, The Post said the military lawyer, Capt. Robert Shuck, was told that Sanchez, the highest-ranking U.S. military officer in Iraq, and other senior officials were aware of what was taking place at Abu Ghraib.

Shuck is assigned to defend Staff Sgt. Ivan Frederick, one of the seven U.S. soldiers, four men and three women, accused of abuses at the prison. One pleaded guilty on Wednesday and was imprisoned.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=OHREX2OKZAEXMCRBAEOCFFA?type=topNews&storyID=5226827

 

[pelastration]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-05-23-abuse-usat_x.htm

General questions how abuse case handled
By Blake Morrison and John Diamond, USA TODAY

The general who was in charge of U.S. detention facilities in Iraq said Sunday that repeated visits to the Abu Ghraib prison by Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez — and his initial response to the misconduct there — raise questions about whether Sanchez, the senior U.S. military officer in Iraq, knew more about the abuse of Iraqi prisoners than he has acknowledged.

(snip)

Sanchez told members of the Senate panel that he had his own procedures for interrogating prisoners, from the standard Army field manual. That document outlines far milder techniques, such as offering prisoners small incentives — cigarettes or a shower — or larger ones, such as political asylum or protection for relatives.

But the controversial interrogation rules that Sanchez said he did not know about were posted on the wall of the interrogation room at Abu Ghraib, an Army colonel testified at the Senate hearing. Sanchez toured the prison several times; Karpinski says he visited Abu Ghraib more often after the 205th Military Intelligence brigade took over the prison in November.

"It was surprising that he visited as often as he did when it went under the MI brigade," she says. "I remember that thought passing through my head."

...
---
In the article was not mentioned if Lt. General Sanchez had blue rubber gloves to keep his hands clean of all the dust.

 

[pelastration]

General Sanchez is a straight shooter

http://www.iht.com/articles/521367.html

... (third page)

Senator Pat Roberts, Republican of Kansas and chairman of the Select Intelligence Committee, said Sunday that he was waiting to learn more but would be ‘‘stunned’’ if it were proved that Sanchez had had advance knowledge ‘‘because, you know, General Sanchez is a straight shooter.
.
But a Democrat on the Armed Services Committee, Senator Jack Reed of Rhode Island, said that if Sanchez had learned belatedly of the abuses, that was a problem as well.
.
The senators were also asked about a Time magazine report that as many as 2,000 pages of supporting material might have been omitted from a copy provided to senators of the Abu Ghraib investigative report by Major General Antonio Taguba.
.
‘‘We’ll sure as hell find out’’ about the possible omission, Roberts said.
.
Time quoted the Pentagon spokesman, Lawrence DiRita, as saying, ‘‘If there is some shortfall in what was provided, it was an oversight.[/URL]’’

---
An oversight. Sure.

---
BTW I tried to find the official press release. "WASHINGTON: US military command has denied a report that one of its top generals in Iraq was present during some interrogations at the Abu Ghraib prison and witnessed abuse of Iraqi inmates.
"There was a news report published on May 23, 2004, which suggests that Lt Gen Ricardo Sanchez, commander of Multinational Forces-Iraq was aware of, and in some instances, present at Abu Ghraib while detainee abuse was occurring," the US military said in a statement.
"This report is false."

 

[pelastration]

Asphyxiations practices.

U.S. Army Survey Cites Wider Prisoner Abuse - NYT
Wednesday, May 26, 2004; 3:02 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56301-2004May26.html

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A U.S. Army synopsis of deaths and mistreatment involving prisoners in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan shows a pattern of abuse involving more military units than previously known, The New York Times reported on Wednesday.

The summary, dated May 5, was prepared by the Criminal Investigation Command at the request of Army officials, according to the newspaper.

It outlines the status of investigations into 36 cases, including the continuing probe into the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison on the outskirts of Baghdad, the paper said.

The Iraq cases date back to April 2003, the Times reported. In an incident reported to have taken place last month, a prisoner detained by Navy commandos died in a suspected case of homicide blamed on "blunt force trauma to the torso and positional asphyxia," the paper said.
...

One of the oldest cases listed in the May 5 document involves the death of a prisoner in Afghanistan in December 2002, the paper said.

The document said enlisted personnel from a military intelligence unit at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and an Army Reserve military-police unit from Ohio are thought to have been "involved at various times in assaulting and mistreating the detainee," according to the Times.

Members of the 223rd Military Intelligence Battalion, which is part of the California National Guard, were accused of abusing Iraqi detainees last spring in Samarra, north of Baghdad, the Times reported.

The Army summary said the unidentified enlisted personnel "forced into asphyxiations numerous detainees in an attempt to obtain information" over a 10-week period, according to the paper.

 

[pelastration]

Abu Ghraib interrogations = computer services?

Inquiry into interrogation firm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3754683.stm

A private firm hired by the Pentagon to interrogate prisoners in Iraq's prisons has had its contract frozen as federal officials investigate its involvement.

The probe could cost defence contractor Caci Corporation its right to bid for government work.

Investigators are looking into an army report's accusations that a Caci staffer took part in the abuse of prisoners at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib jail.

The news sent Caci's shares down as much as 13% on Wall Street.


'Satisfactory' service

The firm says it is presently subject to five separate government investigations.

The firm insists customers had said say its work has been "very satisfactory" and "continue to request [its] services".

But among the five inquiries is one by the General Services Administration, which Caci acknowledged would investigate whether it should remain eligible for government contracts.

And another is looking into the fact that the interrogation services appear to have been provided not under a Defense Department contract, but under an otherwise innocuous deal to supply computer services to the Interior Department.
...
---
Seems these computer services were not related to software but to hardware.

 

[phoenixy]

BTW-I thought the Patriot Act was to protect MY freedoms

haha, good one

 

[russ_watters]

Every criminal in jail will tell you they are there against their will, but every one of them made a choice and is now paying the consequences.

Unless I missed it, not even the US military claims that all those held in the prison were criminals; they were taken there for the primary purpose of gathering intel ... apparently by means that included what most folk would call 'torture', and which Dubya has declared unacceptable. No doubt many of those subject to ill-treatment were 'guilty' of nothing but being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Unless it is claimed that the US forces are infallible, or that all Iraqis are 'fair game' ... I doubt that Russ, hughes, phat, etc would make either such claim.

I have been away from this thread for a while and missed this one. It needs a clarification.

I was making a comparison to Americans in American prisons - I was not implying that we know anything about the guilt or innocence of anyone in those prison camps in Iraq. Indeed, mistakes happen both in the US criminal justice system and in the military one during wartime.

 

[pelastration]

Guantanamo Interrogators Were Sent to Iraq - NY Times
Sat May 29, 2004 02:50 AM ET
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5292501

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Interrogation experts from the Guantanamo Bay naval base were sent to Iraq last fall and played a major role in training U.S. intelligence teams at the Abu Ghraib prison, The New York Times reported on Saturday.

Citing senior military intelligence officials, the Times reported the teams from Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, operated there with broad latitude in questioning "enemy combatants" from the U.S. war on terror and then played a central role at Abu Ghraib through December, when the worst abuses of prisoners were occurring there.

...

The Times said the teams were sent to Iraq for 90-day tours at the urging of Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, then head of detention operations at Guantanamo. According to a defense official, Miller, the newly appointed head of Abu Ghraib, was sent to Iraq last summer to recommend improvements in intelligence gathering and detention operations there.

The Times said the involvement of the Guantanamo teams had not previously been disclosed and, according to U.S. military officials, would be included in a major report on suspected abuses by military intelligence specialists that is being completed by Maj. Gen. George Fay.

The newspaper reported that military officials said Fay would determine whether tactics used by interrogators at Guantanamo and in Afghanistan were wrongly applied in Iraq, including at Abu Ghraib, which was covered by the Geneva Convention.

Fay and his 29-member team conducted scores of interviews in Iraq, Europe and the United States over the past month, the Times said, and he was expected to brief Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, on his findings in the next week, a senior Army official told the paper.

The Times quoted a senior military official in Iraq as saying five interrogation teams, or about 15 interrogators, analysts and other specialists, were sent in October from Guantanamo to the U.S. command in Iraq "for use in the interrogation effort" at Abu Ghraib. A Washington defense official said only three teams were sent, the paper added

 

[pelastration]

Prison abuse 'widespread in Iraq'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3759923.stm
29 May, 2004

An American news agency says it has seen official papers suggesting that prisoner abuse in Iraq took place at four sites other than Abu Ghraib.

Evidence of abuse has emerged from a marine camp at Nasiriya and army camps at Baghdad International Airport, Qaim and Samarra, the Associated Press says.

Detainees were allegedly beaten or forced to stand for long periods of time in scorching desert heat.

AP examined court transcripts and investigator interviews.

The abuses allegedly committed at Abu Ghraib, the feared Saddam-era prison now run by coalition forces, outraged the world after a stream of photos apparently taken by guards emerged.

According to the military documents seen by AP, at least two detainees held at other sites died of their injuries.

The allegations concerning military intelligence troops include the following:


At Camp Whitehorse near Nasiriya, guards were allegedly told to prepare prisoners for interrogation by keeping them in hoods in temperatures of up to 49C degrees (120F) for 50 minutes at a time over periods of 10 hours. One Iraqi detainee choked to death.

At a camp near Qaim, interrogators allegedly stuffed an Iraqi general into a sleeping bag, sat on his chest and covered his mouth. Maj Gen Abed Hamed Mowhoush, who had also been questioned by CIA operatives, eventually died.

At a camp near Samarra, prisoners were reportedly choked and beaten and had their hair pulled.

At Camp Cropper, at Baghdad International Airport, prisoners were allegedly beaten and forced to adopt painful positions for hours at a time.

 

[pelastration]

AP: Army noted Geneva Conventions violations in Iraq prisons last fall

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-06-01-prison-abuse_x.htm

WASHINGTON (AP) — An Army general who visited Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq last fall complained that the military was violating international war standards by incarcerating common criminals along with insurgents captured in attacks against U.S.-led forces.

It was one among dozens of observations in a still-classified report, obtained Tuesday by The Associated Press, portraying an overcrowded, dysfunctional prison system lacking basic sanitation and medical supplies.

"Due to operational limitations, facility limitations and force protection issues, there are criminal detainees collocated with other types of detainees, including security detainees," wrote Maj. Gen. Donald Ryder, the Army's provost martial general. "However, the Geneva Convention does not allow this."

Ryder warned that mixing such prisoners "invites confusion about handling, processing and treatment."

Article 84 of the Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits housing prisoners of war and "persons deprived of liberty for any other reason" with general criminal populations. The rules also require that enemy prisoners be kept in facilities "affording every guarantee of hygiene and healthfulness."

... and more

 

[Simon666]

Article 84 of the Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits housing prisoners of war and "persons deprived of liberty for any other reason" with general criminal populations. The rules also require that enemy prisoners be kept in facilities "affording every guarantee of hygiene and healthfulness."

You mean dipping their food in the toilet and covering them with feces is illegal? How else should we extract confessions from these dangerous random rounded up civilia...errrr...terrorists?

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Rapist Chain Of Command

Rapist Chain Of Command

I’ve sat out of this one long enough.

Your MI “Cronie”, Colonel Papas, ORDERED physical assaults, mental barrages and SEXUAL HUMILIATION (upon Islamic Males).
Further to this, your MPs took GREAT PLEASURE inflicting these sadistic/perverted acts upon helpless prisoners, over a period of MONTHS.

Now, the Iraqis are prisoners IN THEIR OWN NATION. The USA are cowardly aggressors in Iraq.

The USA’s MI/CIA/MPs are a bunch of sick, evil cowards.
It takes a “special breed” to become such Perverted, rapist scum.

Note, that the USA censored many Red Cross reports on the infamous Iraqi torture prison.

Read the Transcript from last night’s Four Corners special, entitled “Chain Of Command”. Read what YOUR OWN Citizens have to say about it…;
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2003/transcripts/s1126969.htm

 

[member 5645]

Rapist Chain Of Command

I’ve sat out of this one long enough.

Your MI “Cronie”, Colonel Papas, ORDERED physical assaults, mental barrages and SEXUAL HUMILIATION (upon Islamic Males).
Further to this, your MPs took GREAT PLEASURE inflicting these sadistic/perverted acts upon helpless prisoners, over a period of MONTHS.

Now, the Iraqis are prisoners IN THEIR OWN NATION. The USA are cowardly aggressors in Iraq.

The USA’s MI/CIA/MPs are a bunch of sick, evil cowards.
It takes a “special breed” to become such Perverted, rapist scum.

Note, that the USA censored many Red Cross reports on the infamous Iraqi torture prison.

Read the Transcript from last night’s Four Corners special, entitled “Chain Of Command”. Read what YOUR OWN Citizens have to say about it…;
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2003/transcripts/s1126969.htm

All australian service men are rapist because of the rapes that inflicted in WWII :)

Why don't you quote what 'my' citizens say about it. I'm not going to waste my time reading through your link.

I love the "us and them" attitude you have - Just like your favorite person, GW Bush

 

[selfAdjoint]

Have you seen the latest revelations, how the government lawyers in 2002 and 2003 developed a theory that the right to disobey the US and treaty laws against torture is "inherent in the presidency", just as if he were Josef Stalin!

Here's what Philip Carter, a military law blogger, has to say about it. http://www.intel-dump.com/archives/archive_2004_06_07.shtml#1086610719

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Woops

Sorry, I placed a post I meant for the Reagan thread here. I have since removed it.
(LARGE EDIT)

 

[pelastration]

Have you seen the latest revelations, how the government lawyers in 2002 and 2003 developed a theory that the right to disobey the US and treaty laws against torture is "inherent in the presidency", just as if he were Josef Stalin!

Here's what Philip Carter, a military law blogger, has to say about it. http://www.intel-dump.com/archives/archive_2004_06_07.shtml#1086610719

Thanks for the link selfAdjoint.
The red line is the negative attitude and intentions these doc's show. That explains also why USA opposed against any involvement of the ICC.
(quote): But this DoD memo appears to be quite the opposite. It is, quite literally, a cookbook approach for illegal government conduct. This memorandum lays out the substantive law on torture and how to avoid it. It then goes on to discuss the procedural mechanisms with which torture is normally prosecuted, and techniques for avoiding those traps. I have not seen the text of the memo, but from this report, it does not appear that it advises American personnel to comply with international or domestic law. It merely tells them how to avoid it. That is dangerous legal advice.(end of quote).
That's why some people admire Rumsfeld because that's 'smart'.

 

[Adam]

1) Phatmonky has confessed that he does not read information provided.

2) The Red Cross generally does not release reports to the public about their findings in places such as the USA prisons here and there, as that would result in them having reduced access. They released a report into recent US activities specifically because they were so bad.

3) The soldiers are there at the command of the government, who (at least in theory) are enacting the will of the people. Thus, all rapes, murders, beatings, abuses of human rights, et cetera, are the responsibility of the US public. And yes, this means the Australian leaders from WW2 should pay for any crimes committed by our soldiers back then, and Australia should pay reparations to the victims. However, for the record, there is only ONE known incident of Australian interrogators going over the line.

 

[kat]

From your link

I have not seen the text of the memo, but from this report, it does not appear that it advises American personnel to comply with international or domestic law. It merely tells them how to avoid it. That is dangerous legal advice.

Have you a link to the actual memo? otherwise this is all speculation. Which makes for interesting conversation, but speculation none the less.

 

[kat]

oops, scratch that. I missed the top link. No time to read it now though.

 

[member 5645]

1) Phatmonky has confessed that he does not read information provided.
.

I have refused to read 20 page links, on a site built around debate and discussion. Especially when someone refers to something that is SOMEWHERE in said link.
Add your own thoghts, and once again, GET OFF MY BALLS.

 

[studentx]

However, for the record, there is only ONE known incident of Australian interrogators going over the line.

Only one? One is far too many. Its despicable to hear this poor excuse.

 

[kat]

Have you seen the latest revelations, how the government lawyers in 2002 and 2003 developed a theory that the right to disobey the US and treaty laws against torture is "inherent in the presidency", just as if he were Josef Stalin!

Here's what Philip Carter, a military law blogger, has to say about it. http://www.intel-dump.com/archives/archive_2004_06_07.shtml#1086610719

This is a draft of a working group report. This is nothing but a group researching and reporting on a multitude of legal scenerios and the prospective legal application. Friggin ridiculous. It's very similar to the environment report that was passsed around a few months ago, that in then end created by a group of grad student who were procured to develop different scenerios. They admitted that they purposely pushed the envelope in order to explore extreme situations.
Give me a break. There's enough crap to put forth that is factual without passing off this stuff as some incredible revelation...ooOOOooohhh OOOOOOOOH Aaawwwww
A working group explored extreme situations and the legal ramifications...OOoOOOOHHHHhh. Hello reality?

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Australian soldiers and MPs DO NOT have the sick sexual fetishes that the Americans do.
An Australian soldier requested to do this SEXUAL HUMILIATION would not. If he did, he would be summarily bashed...

Oh, and before anybody says its not a "fetish".
What was it, then?
(a) "Interrogation"
(b) "Torture"
(c) "Rape"
(d) "Sexual Perversion"
(e) "fun"
(f) "stupidity"

Also, were they ordered to produce this sickness?
Or, did the MPs (just happen to be concentrated into a SINGLE UNIT of sick bastards from a Tarrantino movie?)

Non of the above options look too attractive to me...

 

[kat]

Australian soldiers and MPs DO NOT have the sick sexual fetishes that the Americans do.

Painting with a broad brush...

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Not Really...

I haven't seen any photographs (or RED CROSS Reports) which clarly show NUMEROUS Australian soldiers involved in this evil. Have you?

I've only seen what everybody else has (Americans).

 

[kat]

I haven't seen any photographs (or RED CROSS Reports) which clarly show NUMEROUS Australian soldiers involved in this evil. Have you?

I've only seen what everybody else has (Americans).

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
There were recent reports on serious abuses in prisons at the hands of ...the french.

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Kat Contradiction

Oh I see.
If there is NO evidence, it's possible.

But when there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence, its not good enough.

You're a walking contradiction...

 

[Adam]

I have refused to read 20 page links, on a site built around debate and discussion. Especially when someone refers to something that is SOMEWHERE in said link.
Add your own thoghts, and once again, GET OFF MY BALLS.

Your homosexual innuendos do not interest me. Try someone else.

Apart from that, you can either: 1) read the information provided; or 2) admit you continually whine and complain from ignorance, so we can simply ignore your further posts.

 

[Adam]

Only one? One is far too many. Its despicable to hear this poor excuse.

For once you have said something vaguely rational. Congratulations. Keep it up.

PS: I was not making any excuses for the poor behaviour of my country's military. I was merely stating a fact.

 

[Adam]

I haven't seen any photographs (or RED CROSS Reports) which clarly show NUMEROUS Australian soldiers involved in this evil. Have you?

I've only seen what everybody else has (Americans).

Unfortunately it emerged last week that Australian intelligence officers were present in Abu Ghraib and other such places as observers, and our defence force knew all about it for quite some time. John Howard is claiming "Heck, nobody told me!" once again, just as with the "children overboard" thing. However, as you say, there has been no suggestion of them actually participating. But to me, that is not enough. They should have made their own records, and forwarded the records to the PM, and he should have forwarded them to the UN.

 

[jimmy p]

Unfortunately it emerged last week that Australian intelligence officers were present in Abu Ghraib and other such places as observers, and our defence force knew all about it for quite some time. John Howard is claiming "Heck, nobody told me!" once again, just as with the "children overboard" thing. However, as you say, there has been no suggestion of them actually participating. But to me, that is not enough. They should have made their own records, and forwarded the records to the PM, and he should have forwarded them to the UN.

Which surely makes those military personnel as bent as the abusive soldiers.

 

[Adam]

It certainly doesn't make them saints.

 

[pelastration]

General Granted Latitude At Prison
Abu Ghraib Used Aggressive Tactics
Saturday, June 12, 2004; Page A01

Quotes from: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35612-2004Jun11.html

Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior U.S. military officer in Iraq, borrowed heavily from a list of high-pressure interrogation tactics used at the U.S. detention center in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and approved letting senior officials at a Baghdad jail use military dogs, temperature extremes, reversed sleep patterns, sensory deprivation, and diets of bread and water on detainees whenever they wished, according to newly obtained documents.

The U.S. policy, details of which have not been previously disclosed, was approved in early September, shortly after an Army general sent from Washington completed his inspection of the Abu Ghraib jail and then returned to brief Pentagon officials on his ideas for using military police there to help implement the new high-pressure methods.

The documents obtained by The Washington Post spell out in greater detail than previously known the interrogation tactics Sanchez authorized, and make clear for the first time that, before last October, they could be imposed without first seeking the approval of anyone outside the prison. That gave officers at Abu Ghraib wide latitude in handling detainees.

Unnamed officials at the Florida headquarters of the U.S. Central Command, which has overall military responsibility for Iraq, objected to some of the 32 interrogation tactics approved by Sanchez in September, including the more severe methods that he had said could be used at any time in Abu Ghraib with the consent of the interrogation officer in charge.

 

[pelastration]

Like DOGS

Abu Ghraib General Says Told Prisoners 'Like Dogs'
Tue Jun 15, 2004 05:56 AM ET

Quotes from: http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5424274

LONDON (Reuters) - The U.S. general in charge of Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq was told by a military intelligence commander that detainees should be treated like dogs, she said in an interview broadcast on Tuesday.

Janis Karpinski, the one-star general responsible for the military police who ran prisons in Iraq when pictures were taken showing prisoners being abused, said she and her soldiers were being made scapegoats for abuse ordered by others.

In the interview with Britain's BBC radio, Karpinski said Geoffrey Miller, a two-star general sent to Iraq from the U.S. prison camp at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba, had ordered new procedures in cell blocs where Iraqis were interrogated.

"He said, at Guantanamo Bay we've learned that the prisoners have to earn every single thing they have," Karpinski said.

"He said they are like dogs, and if you allow them to believe at any point they are more than a dog then you've lost control of them."

and more ...

----
Mr. Geoffrey Miller - a General - with profound insight in human rights - is actually the man in charge for all prisons in Iraq. Probably he call a prison a Zoo.

Added: Link to BBC Audio interview: http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/audio/40273000/rm/_40273233_karpinski07_notari.ram

 

[pelastration]

Here is a Washington Post link with several White House, Pentagon and Justice Department documents about interrogation policies and about the motivation on the (lack of) rights of some prisoners.

Some quotes of http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62516-2004Jun22.html


Feb. 1, 2002: Letter to President Bush From the Attorney General (49KB; from FindLaw)
The memo by Attorney General John D. Ashcroft summarized the Justice Department's position on why the Geneva Convention did not apply to al Qaeda and Taliban detainees. The memo was Ashcroft's personal response to the State Department position that, as a matter of law, the Geneva Conventions protected Taliban soldiers. Ashcroft warned that if the president sided with the State Department, American officials might wind up going to jail for violating U.S. and international laws.


Feb. 7, 2002: Justice Department Memo to the White House Counsel (49KB; from FindLaw)
A memo written by Jay S. Bybee, then head of the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, advised White House counsel Alberto R. Gonzales that the president had "reasonable factual grounds" to determine that Taliban fighters captured in Afghanistan were not entitled to prisoner of war status.

 

[pelastration]

Why?

Ever asked why we don't see anymore photo's about the prison abuse. There are still many photo's out there never published. Senators said they were more violent. So?
Has the administration put some ban on it, pressed or warned newspapers and publishers?

 

[studentx]

Might it be that innocent people are being killed because of it?
I don't think there is any benefit to showing them. Perhaps to get the truth out there, but there are already dozens of innocent lifes taken because of anger over these photos. There are also countries who ban the Alqueda beheading videos. Most people don't even want to see those, but strangely enough do want to see Americans abusing others. Perhaps they only want to have their opinion of America confirmed?

 

[automaton]

Neurobiofeedback

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=neurobiofeedback

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=+brainwashing+

given the brainwashabilty clearly available through malevolent use of this tek

what are the idiots doing

induced on hypnotic with a psychedelic drip iv
the highly trained victim is able to manipulate the neuro/biofeedback toys
ie pet/cat /eeg emg etc..

Till the reprogramming started

conciously the tech manipulated the feedback
as Shadern the threat began to feel the lsd21

a psychotomimetic state with now ingrained neurophysiologic psycho/neuroelectronic routines going awry :shy:
should this be common knowledge :blush:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...washing+electroconvulsive+therapy&btnG=Search

duh

 

[pelastration]

Might it be that innocent people are being killed because of it?
I don't think there is any benefit to showing them. Perhaps to get the truth out there, but there are already dozens of innocent lifes taken because of anger over these photos.

Yes that may be correct.

 

[Njorl]

Why?

Ever asked why we don't see anymore photo's about the prison abuse. There are still many photo's out there never published. Senators said they were more violent. So?
Has the administration put some ban on it, pressed or warned newspapers and publishers?

When it stops being news it starts being pornography. Shortly thereafter, the news stops showing it.

Njorl