# Theory of the One Electron

1. Mar 19, 2004

My understanding is that electrons are one of the most highly measured entities in science. I'm not sure what the measurement is (mass/charge?) but it's known to maybe 10 significant digits.

Furthermore every electron seems to have the same metric, within experimental error.

Now, I read many years ago somebody suggested it's because there is only one electron in our reality.

It appears here, vanishes, reappears over there, again vanishes, with such rapidity it appears to be many electrons to our instruments. And the reason for the "identical" measurements is simply because its the SAME electron.

Does anybody know who first proposed this cute idea?

2. Mar 19, 2004

### Chen

I don't know who suggested this idea, but I don't quite understand how it can be possbile. If there exists only one electron, how come an atom can have a $$2e^-$$ charge?

3. Mar 19, 2004

If you mean "double quantity negative" charge (sorry, I'm not familiar with your notation) then imagine this analogy:

You are placed in a dark room, against the middle of one wall. The room has a light capable of very fast switching. There is a rock opposite you in the right corner sitting on a scale. There is nothing special in the left corner. The light briefly flashes on/off. You see a rock, on a scale, and a measure wieght. The rock and scale is very quickly moved to the left corner where the light again flashes on/off. The rock/scale returns to the right corner. This process repeats indefinitely.

It seems you can see 2 rocks - one in each corner on a scale. They have identical characteristics it seems, even the same mass. Amazing! As far as you are concerned you accept they are separate rocks and, furthermore, exact twins, in the common sense.

Now substitute the word electron for rock and read it again.

4. Mar 19, 2004

### ahrkron

Staff Emeritus
I don't know who came out with the idea in the first place, but I'm almost certain I read something along those lines in John Gribbin's "In search of Schroedinger's Cat". The idea was that, since antiparticles can be regarded as particles going backwards in time, then you could see positrons (electrons antiparticles) as the only electron "going back" to make another trajectory for itself (in our perspective). It is indeed a nice image, but I don't think it has any scientific weight, since (even if compatible with observations) it seems to me thaht it has no predictive power. Besides, I think it should be possible to disprove it via weak decays or CP violation.

But I agree, it is a cute idea.

5. Mar 19, 2004

### Chen

Sorry, it kind of fits but not completely. Because if you hold the scale in your hands, regardless of the state of the light, you will still only feel the weight of one rock. Whereas if you have an atom with "double quantity negative" charge, it will pull you twice as hard as an tom with only one negative charge - whether you "see" two electrons or not (and let's not forget the uncertainty principle), you will the effects of two.

6. Mar 19, 2004

If you carry 1 rock, quickly alternating between your hands, and conclude it's just as easy as 1 rock constantly in one hand, well I think both hands would eventually get too tired to carry anything - I.E. it eventually had the same effect as 2 rocks. 1 had the effect of 2. If you double the frequency and involve 2 people I think you could count the effect of 4 rocks.

I think the idea works if the frequency is high enough. The measuring device wouldn't have time to come to a resting position when wham! here comes another additive pulse, pushing it higher than a from-rest-single-pulse.

7. Mar 19, 2004

### Chen

Ok, I can relate to that... but what makes the electron so special that there is only one of him in the whole universe? Why can't there also be one proton and one neutron? Besides if you go to a planet that manufactures cameras (for example) in an automated and precise process, wouldn't you expect that all cameras will be exactly the same? I think the fact that all electrons in the universe are precisely the same is just another aspect of the completeness and perfection of the Creation.

Last edited: Mar 19, 2004
8. Mar 19, 2004

Well, we've measured electrons to a high degree of sameness; but we've never encountered your camera planet, so unfortunately I can't comment on it.

Show me the cameras first, and if they have an electron-matching degree of sameness, we'll carry on with the camera planet idea.

9. Mar 19, 2004

Just came across many joint attributions of this idea to John Wheeler & Richard Feynman.

10. Oct 7, 2009

Whoa! I didn't go that far. I'd say, all the observed ones so far are approximately the same.

As for the other particles, there might be only one each.

Just as a 'stickman' in a cartoon strip can not understand (prove) how 2D-drawn objects in his Universe can appear and then disappear, as the artist draws and then erases them, we may be unable to understand similar mechanisms happening in 5- or higher dimensional spaces as they appear to us in 4-space.

Or there may be an endless succession of Infinities, Cantor-style, without beginning or end whose cardinalities are supersets of preceding ones.

I'd say we have as much chance of understanding as a stickman is able to comprehend the existence (in our -space) of an artist, which is zero.

I'll always enjoy thinking about this stuff once in a while.

11. Oct 8, 2009

### Bob_for_short

I wonder why John Wheeler did not advance a theory of one eye?

12. Oct 8, 2009

### Naty1

This is in accordance with quantum theory which posits every electron is identical to every other election, except for possible differences in their quantum states. So all electrons have precisely the same mass, same electric charge, same spin, and exactly the same weak and strong force properties...but they may have different locations, different spin directions and different energies for example.

ALL electrons are believed precisely identical in this sense...they are perfect twins...one is indistinguishable from another...all of which becomes more interesting regarding teleportation...

13. Oct 8, 2009

### Bob_for_short

So you believe there are many electrons?

14. Oct 8, 2009

### Tac-Tics

Notions like exact position, momentum, time, and energy break down when you look so closely at them. What makes you think that notions of same-ness remain.

When a particle drifts in space, is it really the same particle from instant to instant? Or does the first particle vaporize and another one appears? How can we tell in an experiment that two indistinguishable particles aren't switching places from time to time just because they feel like it?

Same-ness isn't as simple as you think it is. In math, is 1 the same as 1? Well yeah. But if the first 1 is a real number and the second 1 is actually 1 + 0i, a complex number, then maybe. A complex number has more structure than a real, but there is a very natural isomorphism between the two. In fact, it's so natural, we might even say they are exactly the same. Other similar isomorphisms exist, such as C and R^2. But we don't usually say that 1 + 3i is a vector in R^2. Yet, the situation isn't any different than between R and C.

So back to physics. What does it *mean* to say one particle is the same as the other? How are *you* defining same-ness here?

15. Oct 9, 2009

### Naty1

I don't BELIEVE anything,,,,I just rely on the standard theories, quantum mechanics in this case, and hope the interpretations of well known physicists have it mostly right.... like Lee Smolin, Brian Greene, Roger Penrose, Stephen Hawking, Kip Thorne,etc ........I figure they'll be right more often I would ...but of course all of them have been wrong from time to time....

16. Oct 9, 2009

### DaveC426913

I too have heard of this concept, though I have no idea how much merit there is in it these days or how rigorous the idea is.

My understanding is that all electrons are identical in principle, not simply in experiment. i.e. if they were not identical, we would have to rework our understanding of physics.

17. Oct 9, 2009

### PhyGuru

Theory of one electron! ... so if a positron finds this electron and aniihilates it, it would destroy the whole universe! isn't it?

18. Oct 9, 2009

### Bob_for_short

Identical electrons are an experimental fact, as identical atoms, etc. It should not be explained, it should be correctly implemented in the theory. Wheeler's idea is just absolutely wrong.

19. Oct 9, 2009

### cabraham

The 1 electron theory was proposed by Feynman. I have a 1965 paper he authored where he discusses this. He asked his professor if it is possible that every electron in the universe is merely the same electron. I'll find the paper and post it.

Richard Feynman is who I remember putting this theory forward.

Claude

20. Oct 10, 2009

### DaveC426913

Hm. That is a pretty compelling argument against the idea...