Thermodynamic Processes: Adiabatic/Isochoric/Isobaric/Isothermal

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around various thermodynamic processes: adiabatic, isochoric, isobaric, and isothermal. Participants explore the definitions, implications, and real-world applicability of these processes, raising questions about their characteristics and interrelations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that an adiabatic process is a hypothetical scenario where no heat is exchanged, questioning the feasibility of such a system in practice.
  • There is uncertainty about whether a system held at the same temperature as its surroundings can be considered adiabatic, with questions about how to maintain such a state when energy is added.
  • Participants discuss the isochoric process, noting that no work can be done due to constant volume, and question the necessity of including heat transfer in energy change equations.
  • Some argue that an isobaric process requires adjustments in temperature and volume to maintain constant pressure, while others inquire about alternative scenarios for achieving this.
  • Questions arise regarding the relationship between isothermal and adiabatic processes, specifically whether an isothermal process must be adiabatic or if heat flux negates adiabatic conditions.
  • A participant provides a technical perspective on state definitions in thermodynamics, emphasizing the role of equations of state and the first law of thermodynamics in describing changes between states.
  • Another participant draws a parallel between thermodynamic idealizations and geometric idealizations, suggesting that practical applications can still be derived from theoretical concepts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the feasibility and implications of adiabatic processes, the definitions and characteristics of isochoric and isobaric processes, and the relationship between isothermal and adiabatic conditions. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on idealizations in thermodynamic processes and the potential for varying interpretations of definitions and conditions across different contexts.

avocadogirl
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Adiabatic process: a process where no heat is gained or lost. it is my understanding, however, that this is a hypothetical system. There is no insulator on Earth good enough to allow this system to exist, except to approximations.

So, what happens is you have a system where whatever is inside the system is held at the same temperature as the surrounding environment? Is that considered adiabatic?
Now, what if you add energy to the system, how do you maintain an adiabatic system? Do you alleviate the pressure?

Isochoric process: a process where the volume doesn't change. no work can be done on an isochoric system because the volume is not allowed to change.

Is this why the thermodynamic equation describing change in energy cannot be based solely upon work but, rather, it has to include a term for heat transfer?

Isobaric process: a process where pressure remains constant.

In reality, is this system only possible if you adjust temperature and volume in equal proportion, so as to avoid increases or decreases in pressure? Is there another scenario where an isobaric process is possible?

Isothermal process: a process where temperature does not change.

Does an isothermal system have to be adiabatic? Or does heat flux make the system not adiabatic? In what system do you add energy and keep temperature the same?

Thank you.
 
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My you have swallowed the thermodynamic dictionary.

:smile:

For any system a state is a condition where the values of certain variables are known (definable).

We find that we only need a few variables to totally define the state of a system. These are connected by an equation of state such as PV/T = a constant.
Clearly we only need to know two of these to define the state of a system, as we can calculate the third from this equation.

Now other equations including other properties are also possible and the first law is about the energy transferred to a system or withdrawn from it.

So if we have a system at one state (P1 , V1, T1) and we move it to a second state, (P2 , V2, T2) we can achieve this by doing mechanical work on it and/or adding heat energy.

Adiabatic changes occur when the heat added is zero.
A good example of an adiabatic change in real life is a sound pressure wave. It is adiabatic because it is so quick thermal energy does not have a chance to transfer.
 


Very interesting. Thank you, very much, for your reply.
 


avocadogirl said:
Adiabatic process: a process where no heat is gained or lost. it is my understanding, however, that this is a hypothetical system. There is no insulator on Earth good enough to allow this system to exist, except to approximations.

So what! There is no such thing on Earth as an exact right triangle, or an exact equilateral triangle, or any other exact geometric shape. These are all idealizations. This does not prevent you from usefully employing Euclidean geometry to solve practical problems, does it?
 

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