Thermodynamics: Open system: outlet but no inlet

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the feasibility of propelling a miniature steam car using a steam jet, focusing on determining the boiler pressure and steam exit velocity in a system with a single outlet. The conversation includes theoretical considerations and practical applications related to thermodynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes using the De Laval nozzle equation and the Ideal Rocket equation to estimate the acceleration and velocity of a steam car, emphasizing the dependence on mass flow rate, nozzle size, and boiler pressure.
  • Another participant requests clarification on the initial question, indicating it seems vague.
  • A participant proposes using the first law of thermodynamics and the law of enthalpy to determine the pressure inside the boiler, suggesting that knowing the internal energy from heat input is essential.
  • The same participant mentions using the equation for moist air pressure and discusses the relationship between enthalpy, pressure, and specific energy.
  • Another participant suggests looking into psychrometrics as a potential resource for further understanding the problem.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion does not reach a consensus, as participants provide varying approaches and suggestions without agreeing on a definitive method for determining boiler pressure and steam velocity.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the assumptions involved in calculating pressure and velocity, particularly in relation to moist air and the specific conditions of the system.

Paul245
Messages
13
Reaction score
0
Hi There

I'm wokring on a miniature steam car ~0.7kg. I've decided that I would like to investigate the feasibility of propelling the car with a steam jet. So I found a couple of equations that work on the velocity of the exhaust. Equation 1) De Laval nozzel equation for the velocity of the steam at the nozzel outlet, and 2) Ideal Rocket equation which takes the steam velocity from equation (1) to give the change in velocity of the car.

Using these two equations I was able to get an estimate of acceleration and velocity of the car given fueled mass of car, and internal and external boiler pressure. Anyway, I believe that the figures are possible and that finally they depend only on the mass flow rate, which depends on the nozzell size and boiler pressure.

I'm having difficulty finding the right way to determine boiler pressure given that it has a single outlet and amount of heat input. Any advice would be much appreciated.
 
Science news on Phys.org
this question seems somewhat vague. can you be more specific?
 
Hi

Thanks for your response. Say there's a boiler with a single outlet. It contains a volume of water at room temperature. Then transfer some heat so that the water evaporates and pressure increases. What is the best way to determine, pressure inside the boiler and the speed of the steam exiting the boiler?
 
Hi Paul,

In order to solve this problem I believe you would use the first law of thermodynamics or the law of enthalpy:

H = U + pV

where H = the internal enthalpy, U = the internal energy, p = the pressure and V = the volume.

When you divide this equation by the internal mass, you have units of J/kg or energy per mass also known as specific energy (i think).

As you know the internal energy (because this will most likley be the amount of heat you input into the system in Joules thru resistance heating or whatever means) all you have to do is find the pressure since volume is constant.

Now, for moist air pressure can be kind of tricky, so I would suggest looking up a gas constant for moist air and using the equation

p = nRT/V ; where n = moles of a gas, R = the gas constant, T = temperature, and V = volume.

Once you have a value for enthalpy, H, you will have units of
J/kg = N/m/kg = kg*m/s^2/m/kg

or kg^2/s^2.

As you notice once you take the square root of this value you will have a mass flow rate of kg/s.

mass flow rate, or mdot = rho*velocity*Area

where rho = the density of the moving mass, velocity is the flux through the control surface, and area is the area of the control surface or exiting pipe area.

With this you should be able to find the velocity and pressures you are looking for. They may be off, because of some assumptions, but without getting too technical, you will probably get a resonable estimation.

Once the system is at steady state you can calculate thrust by T = mdot*v where m is the mass of steam/air mix exiting and v is the velocity it is exiting.
 
looking at this again, i suggest you look into psychrometrics
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
13K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
6K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K