Thermodynamics- piston cylinder- 2nd law of thermodyamics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding the type of thermodynamic process occurring in a piston-cylinder system, specifically whether it is a constant pressure process or a polytropic process. Participants explore the implications of pressure and volume changes in relation to the second law of thermodynamics, focusing on graphical representations of these processes.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how to determine the nature of the process (constant pressure vs. polytropic) from the problem statement, expressing confusion over the expected p-V curve.
  • Another participant suggests considering a force balance on the piston, noting that the negligible weight of the piston affects the forces acting on it.
  • A further reply discusses the use of free body diagrams to analyze forces and pressures, concluding that the pressures remain constant as the volume increases, indicating a constant pressure process.
  • One participant reiterates their confusion about the p-V curve, asserting that it should be a straight line parallel to the x-axis for a constant pressure process, while also mentioning the characteristics of a polytropic process.
  • Another participant clarifies that the p-V curve will not represent a polytropic process, as that would apply to an adiabatic process, and emphasizes that the pressure remains constant during the heat addition.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the thermodynamic process, with some supporting the idea of a constant pressure process while others advocate for the possibility of a polytropic process. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the definitive classification of the process.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of assumptions regarding the weight of the piston and the nature of the heat addition, which may influence the interpretation of the process type. There are also references to specific conditions under which the pressure remains constant, but these are not universally accepted.

student23
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( part a only I don't understand how you know from this question that it is a constant pressure process.

I thought it is a polytropic process. So it will have a pVγ curve. I was drawing a pV curve.

The answer is a straight line parallel to x- axis.

My question: How do I know from looking at the question what kind of graph it will be and what process it will be? constant pressure, constant volume or etc?

Thanks,
 

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Hi student. Consider a force balance on the piston. Note that they say the piston has negligible weight. How would the force up correlate to the force down as the piston moves within the cylinder and before it hits a step (ie: while it is sliding)?
 
Following on Q_Goest: If you do a free body diagram on the cylinder just before it starts to move, the force on top of the cylinder is 800 N and the force on the bottom of the cylinder is also 800 N so the pressure are also equal. Now let the volume increase just a little. A free body diagram shows that the forces (and pressures) stay the same. Let the volume increase a little more, same result, a free body diagram shows the forces (and pressures) above and below the cylinder are still 800 N. Since the pressures don't change, the cylinder must be under going a constant pressure process.
 
student23 said:
( part a only I don't understand how you know from this question that it is a constant pressure process.

I thought it is a polytropic process. So it will have a pVγ curve. I was drawing a pV curve.

The answer is a straight line parallel to x- axis.

My question: How do I know from looking at the question what kind of graph it will be and what process it will be? constant pressure, constant volume or etc?

Thanks,

The p-V curve will not be pVγ. That would be the case for an adiabatic (isentropic) process. You're adding heat Q. And yes, p stays constant as RTW69 points out. It's always atmospheric pressure.
 

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