Three phase power meaurement questions

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around three-phase power measurement techniques, specifically focusing on the implications of removing the neutral conductor in both balanced and unbalanced load scenarios. Participants explore the effects on wattmeter readings and the overall power measurement methods, including the three watt-meter and two watt-meter methods.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that removing the neutral in a balanced load would not affect the measurements, as the neutral does not carry current.
  • In the case of unbalanced loads, there is uncertainty about the impact of removing the neutral; some suggest that the phase difference between the currents would no longer be 120°.
  • Participants question whether the wattmeter readings would be higher if the neutral is removed for unbalanced loads, with some expressing doubt about the applicability of standard equations for power calculation.
  • One participant mentions that the three wattmeter method can work for both balanced and unbalanced loads regardless of the neutral's presence, while another argues that the neutral maintains the phase difference in unbalanced loads.
  • There is a discussion about the necessity of measuring with the neutral for accurate power readings in unbalanced loads.
  • A participant introduces the concept of needing fewer wattmeters in systems with a neutral point but no neutral conductor, suggesting that the neutral phase angle does not maintain a consistent relationship with current.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the role of the neutral conductor in three-phase systems, particularly regarding its impact on measurements in balanced versus unbalanced loads. There is no consensus on whether removing the neutral affects wattmeter readings or the phase relationships among currents.

Contextual Notes

Some claims rely on assumptions about the behavior of currents and voltages in three-phase systems, and there are unresolved questions about the applicability of certain equations in unbalanced scenarios.

TheRedDevil18
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I have a few questions regarding three phase power measurement

Three Watt-meter method:
measurement-of-3-phase-power-fig-compressor.jpg


Balanced load:
What would happen if the neutral where removed ?, my guess is that it wouldn't make a difference because the neutral doesn't carry any current

Unbalanced load:
Same question as above

Two Watt-meter method:
TWO-WATTMETER-METHOD-OF-POWER-MEASUREMENT-FIG-1-compressor.jpg

What would happen if the neutral where removed for a balanced/unbalanced load ?
 
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TheRedDevil18 said:
Balanced load:
What would happen if the neutral where removed ?, my guess is that it wouldn't make a difference because the neutral doesn't carry any current
Right.
TheRedDevil18 said:
Unbalanced load:
Same question as above

Two Watt-meter method:
%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F11%2FTWO-WATTMETER-METHOD-OF-POWER-MEASUREMENT-FIG-1-compressor.jpg

What would happen if the neutral where removed for a balanced/unbalanced load ?
For balanced load, removing the neutral should not make any difference. But without the neutral, phase difference between the currents for unbalanced load will no longer be 120°.
 
cnh1995 said:
Right.

For balanced load, removing the neutral should not make any difference. But without the neutral, phase difference between the currents for unbalanced load will no longer be 120°.

So for an unbalanced load, if the neutral where removed, would the wattmeter reading be higher than if it where not removed ?

Like, for the three wattmeter circuit if the neutral is removed, each wattmeter would have a different reading ?
 
TheRedDevil18 said:
Like, for the three wattmeter circuit if the neutral is removed, each wattmeter
Yes, in case of unbalanced load.
TheRedDevil18 said:
So for an unbalanced load, if the neutral where removed, would the wattmeter reading be higher than if it where not removed ?
I'm not sure about that. But since the currents are no longer 120° apart, the usual equations W1=VIcos(30+Φ) and W2=VIcos(30-Φ) are not applicable. So my guess is it's not possible to formulate the total power in terms of W1 and W2.
 
cnh1995 said:
Yes, in case of unbalanced load.

I'm not sure about that. But since the currents are no longer 120° apart, the usual equations W1=VIcos(30+Φ) and W2=VIcos(30-Φ) are not applicable. So my guess is it's not possible to formulate the total power in terms of W1 and W2.

So basically if you have unbalanced loads, the correct way would be to measure with the neutral ?

Also, when the neutral is in place with an unbalanced load then the power and currents would be balanced for each load ?
 
So,for the second picture it would be it,generally speaking neutral current is used for protecting electric circuits and taking the sufficient current also in this case when you remove neutral phase there is going to happen on some phases (b,y or r) higher or lower voltage ,in first case with neutral powers of each phase you can calculate separately but it would be so called (in my language) literally phase voltages rhat counts for finding powers of each phase.(Also all of these volltages are "lined" because there is no neutral as you call it) Idk if have made the right discussion and satisfied you with answer,so ask again if you have a need
All the best [emoji16]
 

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TheRedDevil18 said:
So basically if you have unbalanced loads, the correct way would be to measure with the neutral ?
Three wattmeter method will work for both balanced and unbalanced load with or without the neutral.
TheRedDevil18 said:
Also, when the neutral is in place with an unbalanced load then the power and currents would be balanced for each load ?
No. The neutral maintains 120° phase difference between the currents in case of unbalanced load. The power consumption in each phase will be different.
 
For N conductors - you need N-1 Wattmeters... or current meter for that matter. If you have a neutral point "in" the system but no neutral conductor leaving the system, then you only need 2 Meters for a 3 wire system.

As for the neutral phase angle - huh. I would not say the neutral maintains anything...with respect to current. Consider A-B have a Resistive load ( no neutral current impact)and then C-N have a purely capacititive load--- the neutral current will be 90Deg leading the C-N Voltage - and then in a real system the neutral typically gets a lot of the non-linear elements. From a watt meter standpoint you have to still account for them.

Edit - Spelling level EE
 
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