Time, spacelike foliations and timelike vector fields in GR

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of time in General Relativity (GR), specifically focusing on the necessity of hypersurface-orthogonal timelike Killing vector fields for assigning a time dimension to spacetimes. Participants explore the implications of spacetime metrics, the conditions for foliating spacetimes into spacelike hypersurfaces, and the diagonalizability of metrics, including specific examples like the Schwarzschild and Kerr metrics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the necessity of a Killing vector field for defining time in spacetimes, suggesting that it is not required.
  • There is a discussion about the diagonalizability of metrics, with some participants noting that metrics may not always be diagonalizable and that one cannot simply check the signs of diagonal entries.
  • Participants mention the Kerr metric as an example that raises questions about diagonalization and the existence of global time.
  • Concerns are raised about how to define time in spacetimes with non-diagonal metrics, with some suggesting that local time-like directions exist even if a global time cannot be established.
  • One participant highlights the importance of Cauchy surfaces for foliating spacetimes and references Hawking & Ellis as a definitive source for understanding globally hyperbolic spacetimes.
  • Examples of spacetimes where space changes with time, such as the interior of the Schwarzschild spacetime and FRW spacetime, are discussed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity of Killing vector fields and the conditions for foliating spacetimes. There is no consensus on the diagonalizability of metrics or the implications for defining time in non-diagonal cases, indicating ongoing debate and exploration of these concepts.

Contextual Notes

Some questions remain unresolved, particularly regarding the conditions under which spacetimes can be foliated and the implications of non-diagonal metrics for defining time. The discussion also touches on the complexity of establishing global versus local time in various spacetimes.

ShayanJ
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Recently I've had some discussions about time in GR. I've always read in different places that people usually want a spacetime to have a hypersurface-orthogonal timelike Killing vector field so that they can assign a time dimension to that spacetime. But Why is this needed?
I can understand it that a hypersurface-orthogonal timelike vector field allows you to define the worldlines of some observers and the hypersurfaces will be their "space" in each instant of "time". So this seems natural. But why do we need it to be a Killing vector field? What's wrong with associating a time to a spacetime that tells you the spacetime is changing with that time?

What condition should a spacetime satisfy to allow a globally hypersurface-orthogonal timelike vector field?

Also, in GR, we work with Lorentzian manifolds, so the signature is always (-+++)(or the other equivalent convention). But sometimes the metric can't be diagonalized. So is it still as easy as checking the sign of the diagonal terms to check the signature? Can we always put a metric in form such that one of the diagonal elements is always negative(or positive in the other convention)?

Another question I have, is that is it always possible to foliate a spacetime into spacelike hypersurfaces? If not, what condition should a spacetime satisfy to allow such a foliation?

Sorry if my questions are too many and too diverse. But I asked them in one thread because I thought there can be a discussion about time in GR which contains the answer of all of the questions above.

Thanks
 
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Shyan said:
But why do we need it to be a Killing vector field?
We do not. The interior of the Schwarzschild metric is an example of a space time which does not allow this.

Shyan said:
But sometimes the metric can't be diagonalized.
Do you have an example of this?
You cannot just check the signs on the diagonal - the diagonal entries may even be zero depending on your coordinate system.
 
Orodruin said:
We do not. The interior of the Schwarzschild metric is an example of a space time which does not allow this.
Yes, but in cases where the metric is diagonal, we can simply call the negative element, the time coordinate. But what about more general spacetimes?

Orodruin said:
Do you have an example of this?
You cannot just check the signs on the diagonal - the diagonal entries may even be zero depending on your coordinate system.
Surely you can't diagonalize the Kerr metric!
 
Shyan said:
Surely you can't diagonalize the Kerr metric!
Why not? It is symmetric like any other metric.
 
Orodruin said:
Why not? It is symmetric like any other metric.
OK...so in principle we can diagonalize any metric. But do you have a reference where someone actually finds a coordinate transformation that diagonalizes the Kerr metric?
Anyway, I can still keep my question. Suppose a physicist is working with a non-diagonal metric but is simply unable to diagonalize it. How can s\he speak of time in a spacetime with that metric?
 
Shyan said:
But do you have a reference where someone actually finds a coordinate transformation that diagonalizes the Kerr metric?
You do not need to globally diagonalise the metric for it to be diagonalisable at each point in spacetime. For a given point it is just a matter of diagonalising a 4x4 matrix.

Shyan said:
Suppose a physicist is working with a non-diagonal metric but is simply unable to diagonalize it.
Again, you do not need to find a global time. In fact, it is not even certain there is a global time (this relates to your other question - it is not always possible to find a spacelike foliation).

Also note that there locally are many (in fact an infinite number of) different time-like directions.
 
Orodruin said:
You do not need to globally diagonalise the metric for it to be diagonalisable at each point in spacetime. For a given point it is just a matter of diagonalising a 4x4 matrix.Again, you do not need to find a global time. In fact, it is not even certain there is a global time (this relates to your other question - it is not always possible to find a spacelike foliation).

Also note that there locally are many (in fact an infinite number of) different time-like directions.

Thanks.
Do you know any book or paper that has an in-depth discussion about such issues?
 
Shyan said:
What's wrong with associating a time to a spacetime that tells you the spacetime is changing with that time?

There's nothing wrong with it (except that it should be "space is changing", not "spacetime is changing" :wink: ). Orodruin gave one example of a region of spacetime where space is changing with time (the interior of Schwarzschild spacetime). Another obvious example is FRW spacetime; space is expanding with time with respect to comoving observers.

Shyan said:
is it always possible to foliate a spacetime into spacelike hypersurfaces? If not, what condition should a spacetime satisfy to allow such a foliation?

The definitive source for answers to questions like these is Hawking & Ellis. Your question as you state it is probably too general--the answer to it as you state it is, I think, "yes", but that answer isn't going to be very informative since it basically amounts to saying that yes, there are spacelike hypersurfaces in every spacetime. :wink:

What I think you mean to ask is, when is it possible to foliate a spacetime with a set of Cauchy surfaces, which are a set of spacelike hypersurfaces each of which intersects every timelike and null worldline exactly once. A spacetime that satisfies this condition is called globally hyperbolic. Hawking & Ellis have a lot of discussion of globally hyperbolic spacetimes and the conditions required to have one, since those spacetimes are the ones that always have a well-posed initial value formulation.
 
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