Total Work out of Three Bodies (Thermodynamics)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the extraction of maximum work from a system of three bodies with different thermal capacities and temperatures, focusing on the implications of the second law of thermodynamics in relation to reversible and irreversible processes.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a method to calculate the maximum work extractable from three bodies using the formula W=ƩQi, where Qi is the heat extracted from each body.
  • Another participant asserts that the second law of thermodynamics prohibits total conversion of heat into work in a cyclic process but allows it in non-cyclic processes.
  • A participant questions whether full conversion of heat into work is only possible in irreversible processes and expresses confusion regarding the definitions of reversible and irreversible processes.
  • Another participant clarifies that cyclic processes are not necessarily reversible and that real reversible processes require equilibrium at all stages, while cyclic processes can involve non-equilibrium processes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of heat conversion in cyclic versus non-cyclic processes, and there is no consensus on the definitions and implications of reversible and irreversible processes.

Contextual Notes

Participants indicate a lack of clarity regarding the definitions of reversible and irreversible processes, which may affect their understanding of the problem and the application of the second law of thermodynamics.

Mathoholic!
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The problem is:

Having three bodies with thermal capacities (C) as sources of heat to a heat machine, what is the maximum work I can extract from this system, given that the bodies are at temperatures T3, T2 and T1 (T3>T2>T1), leaving them at an equal final temperature?

I tackled this problem by assuming that the amount of heat I can extract from each body is:

Qi=C(Ti-Tf) i=1,2,3

And so:

W=ƩQi

Now, I'm not sure if I'm breaking the second law of thermodynamics by totally converting heat into work. This is where I'm kind of stuck.

So, if anyone can help me figure out how to solve this and other type-like problems, it'd be great.

Thank you :)
 
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Now, I'm not sure if I'm breaking the second law of thermodynamics by totally converting heat into work. This is where I'm kind of stuck.

The second law forbids the total conversion of heat into work in a cyclic process.

It does not forbid it for some part of a process that is not cyclic.

So post details of your proposed system and process for further comment.
 
1Are you saying that I can only fully convert heat into work in a irreversible process?

I'm not sure I can give much more detail about the system. I've already given all there's to know about the problem.

I'm having trouble getting the definitions of reversible process and irreversible process clear in my head. It's all a bit fuzzy and I think that's what is keeping me from solving this problem.
 
Cyclic is not the same as reversible.

You get back to the same conditions (set of thermodynamic values) in each case, but the paths are different.

There are no real reversible processs which must be under equilibrium at all stages.

Cyclic processes may include non equilibrium processes. Irreversible processes are non equilibrium.
 
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