Town Battles 'Demonic' Mystery Blazes

[Evo]

firefly, thanks for all of the translations!

 

[mouseonmoon]

from the Guardian:
----
The houses in which the fires have broken out are all in an area 350 metres (about 380 yards) by 70 metres between the shoreline and a railway.
----

This 'feels' important: limited area between salt water and I'll bet railway lines running parallel to shore--with 'spike' right in the middle...

no reports of 'strange feelings'sensations ...'spooky' situation.

would like to know what the 'animals' were doing?

anyway, a matress catches on fire=guy drops cig/pipe ashes...won't admit it of course...

but a waterpipe catches on fire?


FireFly---you sure you aren't 'at the scene'

 

[zoobyshoe]

From an Australian version:

This may be the common phenomenon Ivan was looking for:

"Suspicion has fallen on the railway, which runs past the houses at the foot of a cliff.

"What we know is that the fires start just before a train is due to pass," Pezzino said.'"
This line specifically contradicts what the other reports said:

"Oddly, the fires stopped on Tuesday, once the experts arrived and cut the commune's electricity supply."

The Australian: Village evacuated after spontaneous fires [February 12, 2004]
Address:http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,8659476%255E29677,00.html

 

[Evo]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
From an Australian version:

This may be the common phenomenon Ivan was looking for:

"Suspicion has fallen on the railway, which runs past the houses at the foot of a cliff.

"What we know is that the fires start just before a train is due to pass," Pezzino said.'"

According to the article from the Guardian, they ruled out the railway. "At first suspicion centred on the railway line, but that has now been discounted."

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Evo
According to the article from the Guardian, they ruled out the railway. "At first suspicion centred on the railway line, but that has now been discounted."

He says: "We know the fires start just before a train is due to pass."

So what I mean is that this connection people made between the fires and the impending passing of the train, fits the description of the commonality Ivan was proposing people would notice.

They seem to have tested the line for something and discounted it based on whatever it was they tested, but I don't know what that was.

The fires being coincident with the impending passing of a train implies a connection, but I can't come up with even one idea about what that might be. Possibly this was a rumor started by one or two people whose fires did start at this time, which turned out not to be true for the others, or something of that nature.

I'm finding that this analysis by sketchy newspaper report really sucks. There's no way to get to the bottom of questions like this that come up.

I don't find that explanation by the Protezione Civile to be anything but very confusing. It is frustrating not to be able to ask about certain points in more detail, since it doesn't make immediate sense to me.

Now, since the phenomenon has stopped, they've left the land of measurements and seem to be relegated to retroactive speculation.

 

[Evo]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
He says: "We know the fires start just before a train is due to pass."

So what I mean is that this connection people made between the fires and the impending passing of the train, fits the description of the commonality Ivan was proposing people would notice.

Ah, I understand. I had read that the people were wanting financial compensation. It is very uncommon for people there to have insurance. So it makes sense that if they could pin it on the railroad, it would be someone they could go after. Except in Sicily, it would be in litigation so long, they would never live to see any money.

 

[mouseonmoon]

quote: Zooby
===
I'm finding that this analysis by sketchy newspaper report really sucks. There's no way to get to the bottom of questions like this that come up.
=====
amen!
all i can do is SURMISE!
(what did the cat say/do?)

and here's another bit of info-'when the train comes in'

Is this the 'spark'?

EVO- a song for you, "just my im-mage-in-a-tion,
run-ing a-way with me"...
------
edit:clarify:"The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory." - Paul Fix
(don't 'fix' my imagination!- let it goooooo...

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by mouseonmoon and here's another bit of info-'when the train comes in' Is this the 'spark'?

An approaching train vibrates the tracks. It also sends sound through the tracks at the speed of sound in steel, whatever that is. The train itself makes sound that preceeds it as a rising pitch due to doppler.

All or part of these things would have to have combined with something else that happened three weeks before the evacuation when the fires started, if this notion that the fires start when a train is approaching has any validity.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Bumping up due to recurrance.

 

[firefly]

RaiNet News, 18 March 2004: Fires caused by magnetic fields

Hey there guys, well looks like they're barking up a slightly different tree now... here's an article from a national (state) news network (RAI). This time I found some ambiguities and terms which my limited physics knowledge really could not tackle - I have signaled my uncertainties with [bracketed italic text] and i leave it to you to adjust these "grossly hopeful" translations . In general, if something sounds kinda SKWOOWY i may have SKWOOD it up so holler 'n I'll check it out! Sorry & thanks for your patience.

From RaiNet News, 18 March 2004:

[translated, with considerations above]

Science remains speechless [...]

Il fenomeno degli incendi [...] Since the overheating cables are not connected to the electrical supply the only phenomenon which produces current for induction is the exposure to strong electromagnetic fields.

What is induction
[translation omitted (superfluous for you guys, no?)]

Geomagnetism
[ditto]

Magnetism and Volcanic Activity
The phenomenon at Caronia could thus be related to the presence of subterranean magmatic masses pushing outwards. The presence of molten [? molten / alloyed / fused ?] substances at high temperatures causes - a scientifically proven thing - magnetic field variations and an increase in charge density on metallic objects. These variations, while in the order of nanoTeslas, are detectable by modern magnetic sensors which are able to perform rapid measurements, both of field intensity and direction. Once factored out the external effects, anthropic as well as natural oscillations of the Earth's magnetic field, a strong correlation has been shown between the "residual anomalies" and the proximity of eruptive crises on almost all monitored volcanos. Although the nature of the the mechanism which excites [? amplifies ?] the magnetic signal is still unclear, the phenomenologies currently invoked are: the demagnetization of parts of the volcanic structure, due to Curie's isothermal rise [? correct term ?]; the electrokinetic effect due to the rise of magmas, which would modify the paths of fluid circulation on the surface [i believe they intend "above ground"] parts of the vulcano and the piezomagnetic effect due to the change in the stress field of parts of the volcanic structure [uhhh, Zoob... sure you don't want to come to Italy and help these guys out? ], caused by pressure variations which accompany the rise of magmas.

 

[firefly]

ummmmm... can "magma" be pluralized in English? "magmas" just sounds awfully awfully skwoowy to me... for starters.

 

[firefly]

Oh btw, mouseonmoon -

i'm near Milan - comfortably North of the firey scenery. (whew! )

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by firefly
Hey there guys, well looks like they're barking up a slightly different tree now... here's an article from a national (state) news network (RAI). This time I found some ambiguities and terms which my limited physics knowledge really could not tackle/B]

Thanks for digging this up so quickly and translating it, firefly. I didn't find it difficult to understand, and I thought that this time it made more sense than their previous explanation. I think it is better that they are saying they think it is related to the same thing that happens around volcanos ( a known and measured phenomenon) than to suggest their theory about the Earth having points of greater charge, like the spines of an urchin, that turn things into capacitors, and all that.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by firefly
These variations, while in the order of nanoTeslas, are detectable by modern magnetic sensors which are able to perform rapid measurements, both of field intensity and direction. Once factored out the external effects, anthropic as well as natural oscillations of the Earth's magnetic field, a strong correlation has been shown between the "residual anomalies" and the proximity of eruptive crises on almost all monitored volcanos.

In other words, the effects are negligible.

 

[firefly]

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
In other words, the effects are negligible.

It also says, a bit further down

Although the nature of the the mechanism which excites [? amplifies ?] the magnetic signal is still unclear

i.e. they don't expect a signal that small to directly cause the problems but somehow to be amplified or in any event modified in some way, by as yet undetermined influences.

(i think amplified is probably a more accurate translation, But I myself do not know exciting a magnetic signal makes any sense in English physicsbabble... like could it mean changing it's frequency or something?)

If I am not making any more sense than the article, please tell me to shut up and i'll quietly go away...

 

[firefly]

Personal viewpoint: quiet conspiracy?

A friend of mine here who, incidentally, grew up in Sicily, rolled his eyes and chuckled sarcastically when i brought up these incidents. His idea is that the whole thing has been "blown out of proportion" by the citizens and the only true "magnetic" aspect here is money. He suggested that the residents and business owners would have nothing to lose, and everything to gain insofar as all this attention is bringing people and money to the area. When I suggested I thought it unseemly that a bunch of people would get together and "agree" to do something like this... he seemed to think that didn't matter, that it could easily be an implicit thing, perhaps started by a hoaxer, who knows, but now being quietly "milked" by the town for economic gain.

The prior investigations mostly looked to theory; the tests performed by national agencies revealed nothing concrete.

I read in another article that the citizens "talk" of elevated magnetic fields according to their "privately hired" electricians. Interestingly, I've found no official reports of these results.

To me so much dishonesty is an ugly thought, and seems unlikely. But I live in better conditions, and in a different culture. I thought I'd toss it out, albeit only an opinion, since it came from someone who has experienced firsthand the culture, and the relative conditions.

 

[zoobyshoe]

This is concievable. In a small town with a strong religious base, there is the "Salem" factor to consider.

Let's say there is actually only one mysterious fire to start with that someone ascribes to the devil. Other people may become unconsciously envious of the attention this brings them and start setting their own appliances on fire to get in on the attention. At least twelve of the towns residents are so inept at this they end up burning their own houses down. The more careful ones just wreck their cell phones and toasters. Anyway, soon the devil is running rampant and they "need" an excorcism.

The mayor figures it's plain electrical fires so he orders the electricity cut off, but they keep happening because it is hysterical mass arson. Time to evacuate and call in the Protezione Civile. These people investigate none of the actual appliances that have been incinerated, concentrating instead on power lines railroad tracks, and geomagnetic measurements. They find nothing.

The people come back and a new reason for more arson arises: to keep the interest of the tourists and gawkers who have come to town to check it out and who are buying their meals and lodging locally. Perhaps someone can be sued, as well.

I would buy mass hysteria over the notion of a single perpetrator, since this would require no special devices or ninja like stealth in sneaking into peoples houses.

 

[firefly]

something like that, but...

Originally posted by zoobyshoe In a small town with a strong religious base, there is the "Salem" factor to consider.

Let's say there is actually only one mysterious fire to start with that someone ascribes to the devil.

I kinda doubt religion has much to do with it. Catholicism is a rather more of a backdrop. Kinda doubt too many people, small town or not, would ascribe it to the devil. At best a very elderly person might get the notion, whereupon I could see others jumping at the idea to call in exorcists and get some attention. Even if the italian public thought it ludicrous, it turns a fire into a unique mystery, and builds up a sense of importance. And it might bring a tourist or two... or more. This, after all, made world news. Think money.

Other people may become unconsciously envious

nahhhhh... it isn't a one guy against the next sort of thing.

of the attention this brings them and start setting their own appliances on fire to get in on the attention. At least twelve of the towns residents are so inept at this they end up burning their own houses down. The more careful ones just wreck their cell phones and toasters

No way people would burn down a houses down through ineptness. But if the property is dilapidated enough to require maintenance beyond it's value, and they caught "whiff" the whole thing could balloon into a national emergency, they might well jump at the chance to get a free ride on state funds to be rehoused. Think money.

Also unlikely anyone would sue anybody here. If monies are exchanged it would be almost certainly under the table. No lawyers, notaries, or taxes. Think money. No God, No Science, Just Money.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by firefly
It also says, a bit further downi.e. they don't expect a signal that small to directly cause the problems but somehow to be amplified or in any event modified in some way, by as yet undetermined influences.

In other words, they really have no theory at all. This assumes way too much to be taken seriously.

If I am not making any more sense than the article, please tell me to shut up and i'll quietly go away...

Not at all. Your input is greatly appreciated.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Closed to avoid duplication. Please see the following thread.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=16494