Trying to understand a constant in the phase shift (or difference?) of 2 waves

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding the phase difference between two spherical waves emitted from different sources, as presented in Hecht's book on Optics. Participants explore the mathematical representation of these waves and the implications of the phase difference formula provided by Hecht.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the absence of vector notation in Hecht's representation of spherical waves, suggesting it may be confusing and seeking clarification on the justification for using scalar notation.
  • Another participant explains that the simplification to scalar notation is intended to avoid complications when dealing with spherical waves, noting that the point P is measured from different source points.
  • There is a discussion about the phase difference formula \(\delta = k(r_1 - r_2) + (\varepsilon_1 - \varepsilon_2)\), with participants expressing uncertainty about how this relates to the optical path difference \(\frac{(r_1 - r_2)}{n}\) where \(n\) is the refractive index.
  • One participant suggests that the k vectors may not be parallel, implying that the equations used may be approximations valid under certain conditions, such as when the screen is far from the sources.
  • Another participant asserts that using scalar \(k\) for spherical waves is accurate and simplifies the calculation of phase differences.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the appropriateness of using vector versus scalar notation for spherical waves, and there is no consensus on the mathematical justification for the phase difference formula. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact relationship between the phase difference and the optical path difference.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential limitations in understanding the phase difference due to the complexity of the geometry involved and the assumptions made about the distances and angles in the wavefronts.

fluidistic
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I'm reading through Hecht's book on Optics and I fail to understand something. I think it's the third edition, page 380, chapter 9 (Interference).
So he's talking about spherical waves emitted by 2 sources. He says that the waves can be written under the form \vec E _1 (r_1 ,t)=\vec E_{01} (r_1)} e^{i(kr_1 -\omega t + \varepsilon _1)} and \vec E _2 (r_2 ,t)=\vec E_{02} (r_1)} e^{i(kr_2 -\omega t + \varepsilon _2)}.
First questions: Hecht's was always meticulous writing \vec k \cdot \vec x for plane waves, now he dropped the vector notation? I don't understand why. Ok k and r are parallels in this case so \vec k \cdot \vec r =kr, but he never justified it, I find it very strange. I'm likely missing something. Any help to understand here will be very welcome.
Then he went to say "The terms r_1 and r_2 are the radii of the spherical wavefronts overlapping at P; they specify the distances from the sources to P. In this case \delta = k(r_1-r_2)+(\varepsilon _1 - \varepsilon _2)."
In case you wonder, P is just a considered point over a screen far away from the sources. \delta is the phase difference according to Hecht.
I do not understand why \delta is worth what it's worth. I realize that the difference in optical path of the waves emitted by both sources is \frac{(r_1-r_2)}{n} where n is the refractive index of the medium. How do you reach \delta form it?
 
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hi fluidistic! :smile:
fluidistic said:
First questions: Hecht's was always meticulous writing \vec k \cdot \vec x for plane waves, now he dropped the vector notation? I don't understand why. Ok k and r are parallels in this case so \vec k \cdot \vec r =kr, but he never justified it, I find it very strange. I'm likely missing something. Any help to understand here will be very welcome.

(it would be k.x = kr, not k.r = kr :wink:)

because it would be complicated and confusing …

the point P is at x, say, but r1 and r2 are measured from two different points, x1 and x2 say …

so the exponent would have a k.(x - x1) and k.(x - x2) …

it would look really unhelpful :redface:
Then he went to say "The terms r_1 and r_2 are the radii of the spherical wavefronts overlapping at P; they specify the distances from the sources to P. In this case \delta = k(r_1-r_2)+(\varepsilon _1 - \varepsilon _2)."

I do not understand why \delta is worth what it's worth.

he's looking at a fixed point x and seeing how the two phases differ, as a function of t …

r1 and r2 are (generally) measured along different lines, so you're not going to get something simple like (r1 - r2)/n :smile:
 
tiny-tim said:
hi fluidistic! :smile:


(it would be k.x = kr, not k.r = kr :wink:)

because it would be complicated and confusing …

the point P is at x, say, but r1 and r2 are measured from two different points, x1 and x2 say …

so the exponent would have a k.(x - x1) and k.(x - x2) …

it would look really unhelpful :redface:

Thanks for your reply. Ok I understand this, though the \vec k aren't parallel I think so I'm guessing that your last equation is an approximation (that is, assuming that the screen and the point P are very far from the sources so that the k vectors can be considered as parallel).
tiny-tim said:
he's looking at a fixed point x and seeing how the two phases differ, as a function of t …

r1 and r2 are (generally) measured along different lines, so you're not going to get something simple like (r1 - r2)/n :smile:
Hmm ok but I'm not able to show it mathematically. Can you help me on that?
 
hi fluidistic! :smile:

(just got up :zzz: …)
fluidistic said:
hmm ok but I'm not able to show it mathematically. Can you help me on that?

you seem determined to use vectors :confused:

it really isn't helpful for spherically symmetric waves like this …

Hecht uses k.x for plane waves, but scalar k for spherical ones because each simplifies the maths for that case

using the scalar k (as in your first post) is completely accurate, and gives you the phase difference immediately :wink:
 

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