Uncountable additivity (sigma algebra)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of uncountable additivity in probability theory, specifically examining the implications of a probability measure on sets within the interval [0, 1). Participants explore conditions under which the sum of probabilities of certain sets results in either 0 or ∞, and the reasoning behind these outcomes.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the sum of probabilities can only be 0 or ∞, seeking examples to clarify this point.
  • Another participant asserts that if the probability of a single point (e.g., P({0})) is 0, the sum over uncountably many points will also be 0; otherwise, if it is greater than 0, the sum diverges to ∞.
  • A participant expresses confusion regarding the probability of drawing any specific number being equally likely, questioning why P({0}) would equal 0 under this assumption.
  • Further clarification is provided that the notation |[0, 1)| refers to the number of elements in the interval, and that in the finite case, the sum of probabilities can be expressed as a product of the number of elements and the probability of a single element.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the probability of {0} being 0 is not a necessity; it is conditional on the measure being defined in a certain way.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the probability measure, particularly regarding the value of P({0}) and its effect on the sum of probabilities. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing interpretations of the probability measure and its properties.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the need for a probability measure where the probability of drawing any given number is equally likely, but the implications of this condition are debated. There is also mention of the Cantor set, suggesting that the nature of the sets being considered may influence the probabilities assigned.

woundedtiger4
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Respected members: I am trying to learn this example but I am stuck that "WHY the sum on the right-hand side of the equation above is either 0 or ∞, which
contradicts (iii)."
Can anyone give me an example that when will it 0 and when it will ∞ ?

if I =[0, 1)
let's say that we have three sets A_0 = {0}, A_0.5 = {0.5}. A_1 = {1}
then P(0)=1/3, P(0.5)=1/3, P(1)=1/3
because after all they are just three sets and we are after the probability of A_α
therefore P([0, 1)) = ƩP(A_α) = P(0) + P(0.5) +P(1) = 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1 and that satisfies condition that P([0, 1)) = 1

Please correct me if my approach is wrong.

Thanks in advance.
 
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It follows from (ii). Note that ##A_\alpha = \{ x + r | x \in A_0 \}## with ##r = \alpha## so ##\mathbb P(A_\alpha) = \mathbb P( \{ 0 \} ) \equiv P_0 \in \mathbb R##.
Hence, $$\sum_{\alpha \in [0, 1)} P( A_\alpha ) = |[0, 1)| P_0$$. Now either ##P_0 = 0## in which case the sum will give 0 no matter how many elements you sum over; otherwise ##P_0 > 0## (IIRC a measure must be non-negative) and you sum a positive value over uncountably many elements.
 
Last edited:
CompuChip said:
It follows from (ii). Note that ##A_\alpha = \{ x + r | x \in A_0 \}## with ##r = \alpha## so ##\mathbb P(A_\alpha) = \mathbb P( \{ 0 \} ) \equiv P_0 \in \mathbb R##.
Hence, $$\sum_{\alpha \in [0, 1)} P( A_\alpha ) = |[0, 1)| P_0$$. Now either ##P_0 = 0## in which case the sum will give 0 no matter how many elements you sum over; otherwise ##P_0 > 0## (IIRC a measure must be non-negative) and you sum a positive value over uncountably many elements.

what is |[0,1)|in ∑α∈[0,1)P(Aα)=|[0,1)|P0 ?

Why the probability of {0} is equal to 0 i.e. P({0}) = P_0 = 0 ? because in (ii) it says "(remember that we want to construct a probability measure where the probability of drawing any given number is equally likely)." does it not say that like other numbers in [0, 1) the 0 has equal probability to appear? or are we considering the number of points in [0, 1) as cantor set (Cantor ternary set) which means that we don't know that how many of them are in [0, 1) ?

PS. I am totally confused because when I look at an example of a fair single coin toss then the probability measure gives 1/2 for head and 1/2 for tail. Similarly, if the probability of drawing any given number is equally likely then why P_0 is zero?
 
woundedtiger4 said:
what is |[0,1)|in ∑α∈[0,1)P(Aα)=|[0,1)|P0 ?
That would be the number of elements in [0, 1), i.e. the number of indices you sum over.
Recall that in the finite case,
$$\sum_{\alpha \in I} P_0 = |A| P_0$$
where |I| is the number of elements in the index set; it may look more familiar as
$$\sum_{k = 0}^n P_0 = n P_0.$$

If you have an infinite sum of a positive constant, the sum will diverge. We write
$$\sum_{k = 0}^\infty P_0 = \infty \qquad \text{( if } P_0 > 0 \text{)}$$
which is just an informal way of saying that
$$\lim_{n \to \infty} \sum_{k = 0}^n P_0 \text{ does not exist}.$$

woundedtiger4 said:
Why the probability of {0} is equal to 0 i.e. P({0}) = P_0 = 0 ?
It's not necessarily. I said: if it is 0, then the infinite sum is 0. If it is not 0, then the sum is infinite.
 
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Thanks a tonne. Crystal clearly understood.
 

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