Understanding Electrical Safety: The Role of Grounding in Circuit Protection

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Discussion Overview

This discussion revolves around electrical safety, specifically focusing on the role of grounding in circuit protection. Participants share personal anecdotes and technical insights related to issues encountered with electrical devices, including the behavior of lights when exposed to cleaning solutions and the implications of different electrical distribution systems.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes an incident where a lamp blinked due to a cleaning solution causing a high impedance, allowing a small current to charge a capacitor in the LEDs.
  • Another participant notes that similar issues can arise when using CFL/LED bulbs with electronic switches designed for filament bulbs, leading to brief flashes as capacitors charge.
  • There is a suggestion to clean lamps by spraying onto a cloth instead of directly on the lamp to avoid such issues.
  • Concerns are raised about whether the plug should be polarized for an earthed lamp to ensure it is truly 'off', questioning the role of capacitive coupling.
  • A participant explains Norway's delta power distribution system, highlighting that it does not include a neutral and that all wires can be live, which necessitates double pole switches in certain areas.
  • Questions are posed regarding how the protective ground functions within the circuit and how fault currents return to the supply, particularly in the context of Norway's geology affecting ground conductivity.
  • Another participant mentions that even small ground currents can create significant voltage drops due to the geological conditions in Norway.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints regarding the functioning of grounding and the implications of different electrical systems. There is no consensus on the specifics of how protective grounding operates in the context of Norway's delta distribution system, and questions remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about electrical behavior and grounding practices that may not be universally applicable. The specifics of Norway's electrical distribution system and its implications for safety and functionality are also noted as potentially unique to that region.

Svein
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To begin: This is not a question, but an anecdote.

The other day my wife called to me from the floor above: "Svein, there is no light". OK, I checked the fuses, and sure enough one fuse had tripped. I resat it, only to hear "Svein, it is blinking!". I went up to see what she meant by that and, sure enough, one ceiling light was blinking like a distress signal. "OK" I said. "Turn it off, and I will take a look". "It is turned off, but it still blinks!" So I disconnected the lamp and started trying to find out what had happened. It turned out that she had sprayed the lamp with a cleaning solution in order to clean it for Christmas.

Thinking about it, I arrived at a conclusion. Soapy water plus dust makes a high impedance resistor. The metal in the lamp was grounded. The light switch was a one-pole type, so one lead was "live". Thus the LEDs were able to draw a small current. This current apparently charged a capacitor in the LEDs and when the capacitor voltage passed a threshold, the LEDs turned on and promptly discharged the capacitor. After this behavior had gone on for a minute, the RCD tripped and the whole floor went dark.

I took the lamp apart and saw that the voltage distribution center was fairly wet (as I had suspected). Worse, the guys in the lamp factory had obviously discovered some bad insulation somewhere and had wrapped the distribution points in electrical tape. When I touched the tape, it promptly fell off. Some strong language followed, but I fetched some shrink tubing and a heat gun, dried out the thing and put shrink tubing over the wires. Case closed.
 
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Nice! She may be telling you that she wants YOU to clean the lights in a subtle way. :-)
 
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A similar thing can happen when you use a CFL/LED on a dusk/dawn switch or timer intended only for filament bulbs. The electronic switch has a bit of leakage, charging the cap as you describe, and the light flashes on briefly, and cycles again when the cap can charge up.
 
Maybe spray onto the cloth, then wipe the lamp, rather than soaking the lamp?!

It was an earthed/grounded lamp, so shouldn’t the plug be polarised, hence truly ‘off’? Or was it capacitive coupling from the neutral?
 
Guineafowl said:
It was an earthed/grounded lamp, so shouldn’t the plug be polarised, hence truly ‘off’? Or was it capacitive coupling from the neutral?
Well, as I have said in various posts, Norway's traditional power distribution does not include "neutral". It is a "delta" distribution:
3phase_delta.gif

The "ground" is not a part of the distribution, it is named "protective ground" and it is connected to "earth" at the base of the house. This ground is theoretically at the center of the delta, but in practice it may be quite off center electrically. Anyhow, it is quite possible to draw some small current between either phase and "protective ground". And, since no phase is more "neutral" than others, all wires are "live" (that is why double pole light switches are mandatory in "wet" rooms and outside lights).
 

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Svein said:
Well, as I have said in various posts, Norway's traditional power distribution does not include "neutral". It is a "delta" distribution:
View attachment 217180
The "ground" is not a part of the distribution, it is named "protective ground" and it is connected to "earth" at the base of the house. This ground is theoretically at the center of the delta, but in practice it may be quite off center electrically. Anyhow, it is quite possible to draw some small current between either phase and "protective ground". And, since no phase is more "neutral" than others, all wires are "live" (that is why double pole light switches are mandatory in "wet" rooms and outside lights).
Ah, I didn’t know that. But how is the protective ground part of the circuit? The three phases off the delta look like they are not referenced to it. How does a fault current get back to the supply?
 
Guineafowl said:
Ah, I didn’t know that. But how is the protective ground part of the circuit? The three phases off the delta look like they are not referenced to it. How does a fault current get back to the supply?
Through the earth. But due to the geology in Norway the "earth" does not conduct very well, so even a small ground current can create a large voltage drop between the supplier and the ground fault.
 
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