Understanding Friction and Newton's 3rd Law in Physics

  • Context: High School 
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of friction and its relationship with Newton's 3rd Law of Motion, particularly in the context of forces acting on objects. Participants explore how friction interacts with other forces and the implications of these interactions in various scenarios, including a practical example involving stacked coins.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether friction acts in pairs, suggesting that if friction acts on an object, there must be an equal and opposite force due to Newton's 3rd Law.
  • Another participant expands the discussion by mentioning additional forces that may be present, such as centrifugal force, air pressure, and gravitational influences from celestial bodies.
  • A participant presents a scenario involving two stacked coins and asks how the top coin will move when a force is applied to the bottom coin, expressing confusion about the role of friction in this situation.
  • One participant asserts that all forces occur in equal and opposite pairs, explaining that friction opposes motion and that the force exerted must overcome this friction for movement to occur.
  • Another participant humorously suggests that if the bottom coin were moved at the speed of light, the top coin would drop, indicating a more extreme interpretation of the scenario.
  • A participant draws an analogy between the friction experienced when moving a hand through water and the friction between the coins, suggesting that both involve action/reaction pairs.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and interpretation of friction and Newton's 3rd Law. While some agree on the concept of forces acting in pairs, others introduce different perspectives and scenarios that complicate the discussion. The overall conversation remains unresolved with multiple competing views.

Contextual Notes

Participants' contributions reflect a range of assumptions about friction and forces, with some discussions relying on hypothetical scenarios that may not align with classical interpretations. The complexity of the interactions described may depend on specific definitions and contexts.

lionely
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Does friction come in pairs? Like if friction acts on something is there like another force due to Newton's 3rd law that acts in the opposite, so are like 3 forces acting upon things most times? Gravity, Friction and weight? I'm sorry for the vagueness of my question, I'm not really what sure to ask, I'm still a novice to Physics, I'm currently going through a textbook called Physics, By Abott.
 
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There are many more forces too, Centrifugal force of the Earth spinning, air pressure, gravity of the moon, the sun too and we are also wizing through space on an arm of the milky way. Sure some of these are small undetectable forces but they are there. The molecules within the two substances are moving, causing brownian motion perhaps.
 
:S I'm still confused, alright listen to my real question, I got from my teacher today.

Okay let's say two coins are stacked upon each other on a table.

A force was applied to the one of the bottom, considering there is friction between them, which way will the Top coin move?

My teacher told me it would move forwards, because the friction acts on the bottom coin in the other direction, and I think the friction forces causes an opposite and equal force to act on the top coin THUS moving it with the bottom.

The reason I asked if forces come in pairs, is because my teacher said something like that. But I'm not sure.
 
All forces occur in pairs; equal and opposite pairs. You can't push against something if it doesn't push back. If you want to drag something along a concrete pathway, the rough surface opposes the motion. It pushes back with the same force that you must exert to overcome it to achieve steady movement. If you exert a force that is greater than that needed to overcome friction, then the body speeds up. The force it pushes back with, as you accelerate it by pushing, is given by F=ma. Again, the forces are exactly equal (and opposite).
 
Oh thank you, so much NascentOxygen and VolKl
 
lionely said:
:Okay let's say two coins are stacked upon each other on a table.

A force was applied to the one of the bottom, considering there is friction between them, which way will the Top coin move?
Try it and see. :smile:
 
I will.
 
If the bottom coin is moved at the speed of light the top coin will simply drop, therefor in this case the correct answer is that it moves perpendicularly to the bottom coin. I'd like to see your teachers face when you explain that :)
 
I think the point the teacher is making is a bit like when you move your hand through water, you feel a retarding force on your hand. That's a lot like friction on your hand (it's actually called viscosity, but it's just like friction). To see if your hand is exerting any opposite forces on the water, simply look at what happens to the water-- it ends up flowing in the same direction that you moved your hand. So the backward "friction" force from the water on your hand that makes it hard to move your hand through water, comes with a forward "friction" force of your hand on the water, and makes the water move forward. It's similar to the coins, the device is to help you visualize action/reaction pairs.
 

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