Understanding Heat Engines: Exploring the Second Law of Thermodynamics

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the functioning of heat engines and the implications of the second law of thermodynamics. Participants explore why heat from a hot reservoir must be expelled to a cold reservoir and the consequences of attempting to use all energy from the hot reservoir for work.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why heat from a hot reservoir must be exhausted into a cold reservoir, seeking clarification on its relation to the second law of thermodynamics.
  • Another participant argues that using all heat from the hot reservoir for work could lead to a perpetual motion machine of the second kind, which contradicts the second law of thermodynamics.
  • A participant requests an explanation of how using all energy from the hot reservoir could lead to a decrease in entropy, indicating confusion about the implications of energy transfer.
  • Further elaboration is provided on the entropy change formula, suggesting that while heat lost from the hot reservoir contributes negatively to entropy, heat gained by the cold reservoir can result in a net positive change in entropy, allowing for some heat to still be available for work.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of using heat from the hot reservoir entirely for work, with some supporting the necessity of heat transfer to a cold reservoir while others seek clarification on the entropy implications. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the nuances of entropy and energy transfer.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the change in entropy formula and its components, but there are indications of confusion regarding the conditions under which entropy can decrease or increase. The discussion does not resolve these mathematical or conceptual uncertainties.

Coop
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Hi,

I am trying to figure out heat engines. I don't understand why heat from a hot reservoir MUST exhaust heat into a cold reservoir. How does that satisfy the second law of thermodynamics? Why can't all energy from the hot reservoir be used to do work?

Thanks
 
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If all the heat from the hot reservoir is used to produce work and that work is used to run a heat pump that pumps heat from a cold reservoir back to the hot reservoir the hot reservoir gets even hotter and you created a perpetual motion machine of the second kind which is forbidden by the second law of thermodynamics.
 
Thanks :) Can you explain why putting all the energy from the hot reservoir to work would cause entropy of the system to decrease?
 
Coop said:
Thanks :) Can you explain why putting all the energy from the hot reservoir to work would cause entropy of the system to decrease?

The formula for the change in entropy is dS=\frac{\delta Q}{T}, where \delta Q is the heat lost and is negative while T is the temperature and is positive. Clearly dS is negative representing a decrease of entropy forbidden by the 2nd. If some of the heat goes to a second reservoir at lower temperature than there is a second term in the expression for the entropy. dS=\frac{\delta Q_1}{T}_1 + \frac{\delta Q_2}{T}_2, \delta Q_1 is the heat lost at the higher temperature reservoir T_1 and is still negative, but \delta Q_2 is the heat gained at the lower temperature reservoir T_2 and is positive. Since T_2 is smaller than T_1 the second term can counter the first leading to a positive increase of entropy and there will be some heat (but not all) left over to produce work.
 
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dauto said:
The formula for the change in entropy is dS=\frac{\delta Q}{T}, where \delta Q is the heat lost and is negative while T is the temperature and is positive. Clearly dS is negative representing a decrease of entropy forbidden by the 2nd. If some of the heat goes to a second reservoir at lower temperature than there is a second term in the expression for the entropy. dS=\frac{\delta Q_1}{T}_1 + \frac{\delta Q_2}{T}_2, \delta Q_1 is the heat lost at the higher temperature reservoir T_1 and is still negative, but \delta Q_2 is the heat gained at the lower temperature reservoir T_2 and is positive. Since T_2 is smaller than T_1 the second term can counter the first leading to a positive increase of entropy and there will be some heat (but not all) left over to produce work.

Thank you :)
 

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