Understanding Vapor Pressure in Open Systems

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of vapor pressure, particularly in open and closed systems. Participants explore definitions, the behavior of vapor pressure at boiling points, and the interactions between vapor and atmospheric pressure. The conversation includes theoretical considerations and practical implications of vapor pressure in different contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that vapor pressure is traditionally defined in closed systems, while others challenge this notion, suggesting that pressure is a universal concept regardless of system type.
  • A participant describes the conditions under which vapor pressure equals atmospheric pressure at the boiling point, noting that this does not imply cancellation but rather a balance of forces.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of pressure acting on surrounding particles, with some participants emphasizing that pressure exists throughout a fluid and does not necessarily act on a wall.
  • Concerns are raised about the behavior of vapor pressure at the interface of gas and liquid, with explanations regarding the no-slip condition and equilibrium at the interface.
  • Questions arise about bubble formation in closed systems at equilibrium, with some participants suggesting that bubbles do not form unless heat is added, while others inquire about the implications of changing conditions.
  • Participants express confusion regarding the concept of pressure acting on something, with various analogies and explanations provided to clarify the nature of pressure in a gas.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on several key points, including the definition of vapor pressure in open versus closed systems, the conditions for bubble formation, and the conceptual understanding of pressure acting on surrounding particles. Multiple competing views remain throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include varying interpretations of pressure in different systems, assumptions about equilibrium states, and the complexity of interactions at the gas-liquid interface. The discussion does not resolve these ambiguities.

  • #31
Borek said:
You have not answered my questions:
Gas was mentioned only to show that your earlier notion (about different temperatures at different points) is wrong. Fact that kinetic energies of molecules in a phase are different doesn't imply that the temperatures in different places are different. It clearly doesn't work this way for gases, why should it be true for liquids?

OK, two points seem to be in this issue of discussion, energy distribution in gas phase particles and energy distribution in liquid phase particles. Gases 1st: While it's true the Boltzmann-Maxwell distribution of particle energies vs numbers of particles is an illustration of particle energy distributions, it is a common understanding that the Kinetic Energy of a mole of any gas equals (3/2RT). This suggests that Kinetic Energy (homogeneous gas-phase system) is directly proportional to Temperature and changes in Kinetic Energy would, in fact, demonstrate different temperature values. The average kinetic energy of a molecule, which by definition is (1/2mv2), is obtained by dividing (3/2RT) by Avogadro's number, NA. This gives gas phase kinetic energy as (1/2mv2 = (3/2RT/2NA) that is, according to this equation, temperature dependent.

2nd, liquid phase: In a sample of homogeneous a single component system in liquid phase, the energy content is described by (mc∆T) and has a temperature change factor included. However, when a system is in phase transition;i.e., liquid phase => vapor phase, energy input goes exclusively to providing the kinetic energy to effect vaporization and temperature change is not observed under such circumstance. The results of a common experimental investigation of this issue is verified in the 'Heating Curve' for a given mass of water. Tracing, say energy change as a function of temperature change of a finite mass of water from below freezing to a few degrees above boiling (liquid-gas transition) reveals that single phase components demonstrate a temperature change with the input or extraction of heat. However, when two phases are in contact, no temperature change is observed and heat content (Kinetic Energy) for the entire mass quantity of interest is given by (m∆Ht), where ∆Ht is the phase change transition constant. This energy is uniform and distributed homogeneously throughout the liquid-phase system so long as energy input continues and no changes in atmospheric pressure are imposed. Here is a link that may better clarify energy changes observed experimentally. http://chemistry.bd.psu.edu/jircitano/heatcurv.html I specifically direct your attention to 'Step 2' statement, "The heat does not increase the kinetic energy of the molecules, so the temperature remains constant. As long as there are H-bonds to break (as long as there is solid present), the temperature cannot increase". Also, here's another link that applies the Boltzmann-Maxwellean Distribution to factors required for reaction initiation including phase transition issures. http://www.chemunlimited.com/The Arrhenius Equation.html
Hope this helps, jp
 
Last edited:
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  • #32
I don't think this helps because we all agree with this. What we don't agree with is that the kinetic energies of all the molecules in a thermally homogeneous liquid are identical to one another, particularly at the boiling point. This was our (Chet, Borek, Russ) understanding of what you were saying. If it wasn't what your were saying, please excuse us for our misinterpretation. Please clarify.

Chet
 

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