Unique nth Roots in the Reals - Rudin 1.21

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter gwsinger
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Roots
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the proof of the existence of unique positive nth roots for positive real numbers as presented in Rudin's "Principles of Mathematical Analysis." Participants examine the steps involved in Rudin's proof, particularly focusing on the choice of a variable "h" and the implications of different conditions on "h" for reaching the conclusion.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the necessity of Rudin's conditions for "h," suggesting that a simpler choice could lead to the conclusion more efficiently.
  • Another participant points out that the existence of "h" satisfying the proposed simpler conditions may not be trivial, as it involves a dependency on "h" appearing in both sides of the inequality.
  • A further contribution attempts to prove the existence of "h" under Rudin's conditions, demonstrating that it is possible to find such an "h" using rational numbers and the properties of real numbers.
  • Another participant introduces an alternative method for demonstrating the existence of nth roots by considering the function f(x) = x^n and its properties, although this is noted as somewhat off-topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity and complexity of Rudin's approach, with some supporting the original method and others advocating for a simpler alternative. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the optimal choice of conditions for "h."

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential limitations in the assumptions made about the existence of "h" and the implications of the inequalities involved, but do not resolve these issues.

gwsinger
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Unique nth Roots in the Reals -- Rudin 1.21

In Principles of Mathematical Analysis 1.21, Rudin sets out to show that for every positive real x there exists a unique positive nth root y. The proof is rather long and I would like to zoom into the portion of it where it seems that Rudin takes too many steps to show a sub-conclusion. This is where Rudin chooses an element h ∈ R such that the following two conditions hold:

(1) 0 < h < 1
(2) h < (x-yn) / n(y+1)n-1

He does this to say that since

(y+h)n - yn < hn(y+h)n-1 < hn(y+1)n-1 < x - yn

follows, we can then observe (y+h)n < x which comes from the first and last terms in the longer inequality above.

So my question/objection is as follows: why not just merely choose "h" to satisfy

(1a) 0 < h
(2a) h < (x - yn) / n(y+h)n-1

...? This way we could get to our conclusion much faster since

(y+h)n - yn < hn(y+h)n-1 < x - yn

implies with fewer steps that

(y+h)n < x.
 
Physics news on Phys.org


gwsinger said:
why not just merely choose "h" to satisfy

(1a) 0 < h
(2a) h < (x - yn) / n(y+h)n-1

There is an h in the right-hand side and an h in the left-hand side. So showing the very existence of such an h will be less trivial than how Rudin does it.
 


There is an h in the right-hand side and an h in the left-hand side. So showing the very existence of such an h will be less trivial than how Rudin does it.

Well, here is my attempt at a proof that there exists an h with the two conditions Rudin lays out:

(1) 0 < h < 1
(2) 0 < h < [x – yn] / [n(y+1)n-1]

Let ⊥ = [x – yn] / [n(y+1)n-1]

First observe that ⊥ > 0 since it is really just the two positive quantities of (x-yn) and 1/[n(y+1)n-1] being multiplied together (which is positive by axiom).

Next note that by trichotomy ⊥ < 1 or ⊥ = 1 or ⊥ > 1.

If ⊥ ≤ 1, then let H = {h ∈ Q: 0 < h < ⊥}. We know that H is non-empty since we can say from Rudin 1.20(b) that there always exists a rational number in between two reals. In this case, there will be an h between 0 and ⊥ (which we know is real by the closure axiom).

Similarly, if ⊥ > 1, then let H = {h ∈ Q: 0 < h < 1 < ⊥}. Likewise we know that H is non-empty since we know there exists a rational between the two reals of 0 and 1.

Hence we have shown that ∃h(h ∈ Q ∧ (0 < h < 1) ∧ h < ⊥)

Relating this proof to my original question, we could show using a similar (but again much easier!) proof that there exists an h which satisfies the following criteria:

(1a) 0 < h
(2a) h < (x - yn) / n(y+h)n-1

…which would, with fewer steps, lead to the conclusion that (y+h)n < x, which is what Rudin is going after to begin with. Is there anything I’m missing? Can anyone think of why Rudin would introduce the extra criteria for h which leads to extra steps to show his sub-conclusion?
 


Kind of off topic but another way to show the exsistence of nth roots is consider the function f(x) = x^n. It is increasing on [0, 00), and since the function is one to one, you can take its inverse and then with the intermediate value theorem to get the result.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
3K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
7K
  • · Replies 26 ·
Replies
26
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K