Units of spacetime in Minkowski metric

[nomadreid]

In the equation
ds²=dx²+dy²+dz²-c²*dt²
the units on the RHS are units of distance squared. But it would seem that units for a spacetime metric should somehow be in units which incorporate both space and time units.
Undoubtedly this is an elementary question, but one has to start somewhere. Thanks.

 

[ghwellsjr]

In the equation
ds²=dx²+dy²+dz²-c*dt²
the units on the RHS are units of distance. But it would seem that units for a spacetime metric should somehow be in units which incorporate both space and time units.
Undoubtedly this is an elementary question, but one has to start somewhere. Thanks.

That's actually the formula for one version of the Spacetime Interval (except you left off the squared term on "c") and it's actually the square of distance (just so we don't have to worry about taking the square root of a negative number). And it does incorporate both time and space but since they are actually different, we convert time to a distance that light travels in a given time.

 

[dextercioby]

The speed of light is a conversion factor in terms of units. You must pass somehow from seconds to meters and do that with something measured in meters/second. The second postulate of SR forces this conversion factor to be exactly c (and not c+/- 2%).

 

[dauto]

It is also possible to write the space-time interval as dτ² = dt² - 1/c²[dx² + dy² + dz²]

 

[nomadreid]

thank you, ghwellsjr and dextercioby. Yes, I have corrected the formula to having the c-squared and that we are looking at distance squared. That two sides of the equation should have the same units, and that the c² accomplishes this is clear, and that both space and time are implicitly taken into account in the calculation of ds² is also clear. However, this still bypasses my question: with this mechanism, we end up with ds² having the units of, for example, m². Yes, in a calculation this works, but spacetime is not a spatial distance and should hence not have the units of spatial distance, just as it would be odd to express a measurement of mass in units of electric charge: the two are fundamentally different. My own guess is either that
(a) there is some sort of implicit isomorphism at work here, so that we have a distance-squared
(dx²+dy²+dz²-c²*dt²) which relates to the measurement of a distance in a structure in space, and that this structure of space is isomorphic to a structure in spacetime, in which the units of the metric are no longer purely spatial.
Or,
(b) once the units have been all set to the same units, then these quantities are really unitless, merely computing comparative lengths of the space, the time, and the space-time vectors.

But I don't know whether either of these guesses are viable. I would be grateful for further enlightenment.

 

[nomadreid]

PS the reply of dauto just came in as I sent in my reply. Thanks, dauto; yes, using proper time (tau) has both sides of the equation expressed in time-squared units, but this then transforms my question from
(A) why spacetime-squared is in terms of spatial-distance-units squared, to
(B) why spacetime-squared is in terms of time-units squared.
Just as spacetime is different to space, it is also different to time. Again, both time and space are taken into account in the calculation of either mode of expression, but in neither does spacetime have its proper units distinct from space alone or time alone.
My dubious guesses (a) and (b) would also apply here.

 

[ghwellsjr]

If you start with your version of the spacetime interval and it evaluates to a positive number, then you can take the squareroot and you will have a value that is purely spacial. It's called a spacelike spacetime interval. If it's negative, then you can recalculate it using the form that dauto provided, take its squareroot and you will have a value that purely temporal. That one is called a timelike spacetime interval. If the value is non-zero, it's always either one or the other, never both. If it's zero, it's neither and it's called a null spacetime interval.

 

[nomadreid]

thanks, ghwellsjr. Interesting. I shall work further on this, starting from your explanation.

 

[phyti]

... However, this still bypasses my question: with this mechanism, we end up with ds² having the units of, for example, m². Yes, in a calculation this works, but spacetime is not a spatial distance and should hence not have the units of spatial distance, just as it would be odd to express a measurement of mass in units of electric charge: the two are fundamentally different. My own guess is either that
(a) there is some sort of implicit isomorphism at work here, so that we have a distance-squared
(dx²+dy²+dz²-c²*dt²) which relates to the measurement of a distance in a structure in space, and that this structure of space is isomorphic to a structure in spacetime, in which the units of the metric are no longer purely spatial.
Or,
(b) once the units have been all set to the same units, then these quantities are really unitless, merely computing comparative lengths of the space, the time, and the space-time vectors.

But I don't know whether either of these guesses are viable. I would be grateful for further enlightenment.

The evolution of the interval.

From the SR 1905 paper, the (equality) expression for the invariant interval between two events is

1. x1²+ x2²+ x3²= (ct)².

Nice and simple, with obvious meaning.
Minkowski, using complex notation, modifies the ct variable to ict. This allows a general form for the interval, that (mathematically) represents ct as a 4th dimension when expressed as

2. s² = x1² + x2² + x3² + x4².

More complex, allowing for misinterpretation, such as ‘moving in time’.
The s term can have ± values or = 0. Using a Minkowski diagram, the sign of the values only indicates a speed <, >, or = to c, i.e. time like, space like, or null (photon) world lines.

Spacetime is a measure of spatial units. If you examine the light clock, each tick is counting multiples of light motion within the clock. If you could unfold this distance into a straight line, it would represent ct. The Minkowski diagram is a plot of speed, vt/ct, or v/c, and is not a 2D plane.

 

[nomadreid]

Thanks, phyti. Your remark that it is ct, not t, that is a separate dimension is enlightening, as was your comment that spacetime is really a spatial measurement (implicitly: for a spacelike spacetime separation; mutatis mutandi for timelike spacetime measurements). Also enlightening was my attempt to give a counterexample; I kept finding myself guilty of assuming either simultaneity or motionlessness, both of which are unprovable. This helped not only my understanding but also my gut reaction against spacetime not having some units of its own.

 

[ghwellsjr]

From the SR 1905 paper, the (equality) expression for the invariant interval between two events is

1. x1²+ x2²+ x3²= (ct)².

Nice and simple, with obvious meaning.

Where does that occur in the SR 1905 paper? I couldn't find it or any discussion about the spacetime interval or about it being invariant.

I did find a similar equation in the middle of article 3 but it concerned the formula for the expansion of a spherical wave and had nothing to do with the invariant interval between two events. Einstein's use is nice and simple, with obvious meaning, but I don't see how it could be true for any two events, even if one of those events is at the origin.

 

[The_Duck]

PS the reply of dauto just came in as I sent in my reply. Thanks, dauto; yes, using proper time (tau) has both sides of the equation expressed in time-squared units, but this then transforms my question from
(A) why spacetime-squared is in terms of spatial-distance-units squared, to
(B) why spacetime-squared is in terms of time-units squared.
Just as spacetime is different to space, it is also different to time.

In special relativity, you should ideally measure distance and time in the same units, and you should also use these units for the spacetime interval. Note that "spacetime" is not a quantity, or a unit--what we are speaking of is called the spacetime *interval*. "Interval" here is supposed to mean "distance"--the spacetime interval defines a sort of distance between any two events, and it is perfectly fine to measure this distance in meters. The spacetime interval has the same units as distance and time for the same reason that all distances in the 2D Euclidean plane have the same units as distances along the x axis.

 

[nomadreid]

Thanks, The_Duck. A few comments, sentence by sentence:

In special relativity, you should ideally measure distance and time in the same units, and you should also use these units for the spacetime interval.

Yes, phyti's post also emphasizes this point.

Note that "spacetime" is not a quantity, or a unit...

Why isn't it a quantity? If it is measured or calculated, it is a quantity, no? In this case, although it is not a unit, it is measured in units, no?

The spacetime interval has the same units as distance and time for the same reason that all distances in the 2D Euclidean plane have the same units as distances along the x axis.

If you already have the two axes in distance units (as clarified by phyti), then fine. I was starting from the assumption that one of the axes in spacetime was time, in temporal units, and the other axis was space, in spatial units (as is usually the case in popular descriptions of spacetime), in which case the analogy to the 2D Euclidean plane would no longer work, since you have curves measured in the same units as those of the x-axis only if the units of the y-axis are the same as those of the x axis; however, if the axes are of different quantities measured in different units, this no longer works.

 

[Nugatory]

I was starting from the assumption that one of the axes in spacetime was time, in temporal units, and the other axis was space, in spatial units

As far as the mathematics of space-time are concerned, there is no distinction between the units of time-like intervals and space-like intervals.

We humans don't experience these intervals the same way, but that affects neither the mathematical structure nor the correspondence between that structure and what we do experience (in part because Minkowski mathematics does recognize a difference between time-like intervals and space-like intervals, it just doesn't need a different unit of measure to do so).

Measuring intervals on the t-axis in seconds and measuring intervals on the spatial axes in meters is like measuring distances on the y-axis in inches and distances on the x-axis in feet... It obscures without being any more correct.

 

[yuiop]

The evolution of the interval.

From the SR 1905 paper, the (equality) expression for the invariant interval between two events is

1. x1²+ x2²+ x3²= (ct)².

I agree with ghwellsjr. This expression is not the invariant interval between two events.
Using x2=x3=0 and rearranging yields:

$\frac{\Delta x1}{\Delta t} = c^2$

which is obviously only true for a light particle. If this is in the 1905 SR paper, then it was in the context of the speed of light being invariant.

 

[nomadreid]

Nugatory, thanks and a further question. If spatial and temporal units are considered essentially equivalent , would that make velocity (and hence the constant relating the two units) essentially unitless?

 

[phyti]

Where does that occur in the SR 1905 paper? I couldn't find it or any discussion about the spacetime interval or about it being invariant.

I did find a similar equation in the middle of article 3 but it concerned the formula for the expansion of a spherical wave and had nothing to do with the invariant interval between two events. Einstein's use is nice and simple, with obvious meaning, but I don't see how it could be true for any two events, even if one of those events is at the origin.

For this discussion, it should just be "interval" as in line 1. The expression you mentioned in par 3, is the one noted. The purpose was to compare (1) and (2) (post 9), showing the misinterpretation of (2) with "time" dressed up as a literal dimension. The classification of interval types, seems redundant, when they are so obvious in Minkowski diagrams. Mass moves at <c, light moves at c, and nothing known moves >c.
This idea of a time dimension just perpetuates the philosophical/scientific debates about the nature of time. More is learned about time by studying clocks and how they have been used. The conclusion is the same throughout history until now. Time is an alias for spatial motion, the Earth for millenia, and light for the last century.

From 'The Meaning of Relativity', Albert Einstein, 1956:
page 1.
"The experiences of an individual appear to us arranged in a series of events; in this series the single events which we remember appear to be ordered according to the criteria of "earlier" and "later", which cannot be analysed further. There exists, therefore, for the individual, an I-time, or subjective time."
page 31.
"The non-divisibility of the four-dimensional continuum of events does not at all, however, involve the equivalence of the space coordinates with the time coordinate."
page 32.
"Finally, with Minkowski, we introduce in place of the real time co-ordinate l=ct, the imaginary time co-ordinate..."

 

[ghwellsjr]

Where does that occur in the SR 1905 paper? I couldn't find it or any discussion about the spacetime interval or about it being invariant.

I did find a similar equation in the middle of article 3 but it concerned the formula for the expansion of a spherical wave and had nothing to do with the invariant interval between two events. Einstein's use is nice and simple, with obvious meaning, but I don't see how it could be true for any two events, even if one of those events is at the origin.

For this discussion, it should just be "interval" as in line 1. The expression you mentioned in par 3, is the one noted. The purpose was to compare (1) and (2) (post 9), showing the misinterpretation of (2) with "time" dressed up as a literal dimension. The classification of interval types, seems redundant, when they are so obvious in Minkowski diagrams. Mass moves at <c, light moves at c, and nothing known moves >c.
This idea of a time dimension just perpetuates the philosophical/scientific debates about the nature of time. More is learned about time by studying clocks and how they have been used. The conclusion is the same throughout history until now. Time is an alias for spatial motion, the Earth for millenia, and light for the last century.

From 'The Meaning of Relativity', Albert Einstein, 1956:
page 1.
"The experiences of an individual appear to us arranged in a series of events; in this series the single events which we remember appear to be ordered according to the criteria of "earlier" and "later", which cannot be analysed further. There exists, therefore, for the individual, an I-time, or subjective time."
page 31.
"The non-divisibility of the four-dimensional continuum of events does not at all, however, involve the equivalence of the space coordinates with the time coordinate."
page 32.
"Finally, with Minkowski, we introduce in place of the real time co-ordinate l=ct, the imaginary time co-ordinate..."

But couldn't you just as easily claim that the spatial dimensions are misinterpretations of the time coordinate as per dauto's post:

It is also possible to write the space-time interval as dτ² = dt² - 1/c²[dx² + dy² + dz²]

After all, the international standard for the meter is no longer based on a rigid rod or on a fraction of the size of the earth but rather on the distance that light travels during a specified interval of time. Apparently, the world's best scientists have become convinced that there is no such thing as a rigid rod. Why wouldn't you conclude based on that and since there has been so much debate concerning Length Contraction of so-called rigid rods that there is no legitimate way to construct a spatial coordinate system based on rigid rods but only on the measurement of distances using clocks to determine how far light has traveled during a specified time interval.

So why wouldn't you conclude your remarks with "Distance is an alias for light travel time and motion is just a fraction of the speed of light (or something similar).

 

[phyti]

But couldn't you just as easily claim that the spatial dimensions are misinterpretations of the time coordinate as per dauto's post:

Quote by dauto
It is also possible to write the space-time interval as dτ2 = dt2 - 1/c2[dx2 + dy2 + dz2]

You can rearrange x=ct, in different ways, depending on what variable is unknown, but that does not define them. It defines a relation among the variables.

After all, the international standard for the meter is no longer based on a rigid rod or on a fraction of the size of the Earth but rather on the distance that light travels during a specified interval of time.

If light travels a fixed distance, we can set a clock to run at different rates, and assign various “times” for the same distance. The distance is constant, the time is a convention, and thus variable.

Apparently, the world's best scientists have become convinced that there is no such thing as a rigid rod

They knew this long before 1900, when they discovered that heated matter expanded.

Why wouldn't you conclude based on that and since there has been so much debate concerning Length Contraction of so-called rigid rods that there is no legitimate way to construct a spatial coordinate system based on rigid rods but only on the measurement of distances using clocks to determine how far light has traveled during a specified time interval.

That was the point, that the “time” corresponded to a distance traveled by light.

Since lc and td scale length and time for the moving observer, by the same scale, 1/γ, the spatial coordinate system preserves relations between “time” and “space”, as if rigid rods exist, i.e. relative to that observer, the unit of time and length are constant.

So why wouldn't you conclude your remarks with "Distance is an alias for light travel time and motion is just a fraction of the speed of light (or something similar).

We already do that with light second, light year, etc., and expressing (speed) v as .6c for example.

The light clock counts units of light motion (t) that are simultaneous with the object motion. The numbers t1 & t2 are only events corresponding with the start and end of the motion, just as the marks on a ruler correspond to the ends of an object.

I can’t regard “time” as something fundamental which causes events. Observing and recording events using a clock (a standard event generator), and comparing to previous events is an operational definition of “time”, an accounting method. In its primitive form, a criminal in a prison marking a line on the wall for each day.


The Minkowski diagram shows explicitly, vertical ct axis (light motion) vs horizontal x-axis (object motion), v/c, an apples to apples comparison.

 

[ghwellsjr]

I can’t regard “time” as something fundamental which causes events.

Do you regard "distance" as something fundamental which causes events?

 

[phyti]

Do you regard "distance" as something fundamental which causes events?

No,and "distance" is not used in that sense, but "time" is. Consider the expression, v=h-gt, (the speed v of an object, released from a height h, is a function of time t. If you took pics of the object for a sequence of clock ticks, the ticks would correspond to varying heights of the object. Thus in reality you are comparing heights that vary exponentially with ticks that vary linearly, and conclude the parabolic path is gravity accelerating the object toward the Earth center.
We know it's gravity, not time, that accelerates the object.
Just as Einstein states in the 1905 paper, the time of an event is the simultaneous state (tick) of the clock, but notice the time is always after the fact/event/awareness, therefore it can't be a cause.

 

[ghwellsjr]

No,and "distance" is not used in that sense, but "time" is. Consider the expression, v=h-gt, (the speed v of an object, released from a height h, is a function of time t. If you took pics of the object for a sequence of clock ticks, the ticks would correspond to varying heights of the object. Thus in reality you are comparing heights that vary exponentially with ticks that vary linearly, and conclude the parabolic path is gravity accelerating the object toward the Earth center.
We know it's gravity, not time, that accelerates the object.
Just as Einstein states in the 1905 paper, the time of an event is the simultaneous state (tick) of the clock, but notice the time is always after the fact/event/awareness, therefore it can't be a cause.

I'm not sure anyone ever considered time to be a cause.

Let me rephrase the question: Do you regard "distance" as being fundamental in some sense that "time" is not?

 

[phyti]

I'm not sure anyone ever considered time to be a cause.

Let me rephrase the question: Do you regard "distance" as being fundamental in some sense that "time" is not?

Space although intangible, makes its presence known. An object is here, another there. It requires energy to move from one location to another. Physics has to allow for it.
Time as shown in many examples is a human contrivance/tool/methodology, to put events in order, and provide a measurable interval, for whatever purpose selected. Historically, it can be any periodic event, some form of clock, the moon, rotation of the earth, atomic vibration, etc, all involving some form of motion.
We could substitute "SR was published 108 yrs ago", with "SR was published 108 Earth orbits ago".
Distance is labelled as "time".

If you observed that all motion of material objects beyond yourself stopped, you would still be sensing new photons, therefore you would consider "time" to be passing. If the photons (motions) ceased, there would be no objects, no memory of a previous state, i.e. the equivalent of death.
Don't you think this reduces "time" to motion (a changing spatial position)?

 

[nomadreid]

If I may insert a question that is a real question, not a rhetorical one (even if the question may appear silly): if time is reducible to distance, how is the "arrow of time" translated? That is, on the macro scale, time has the property of going only in one direction, while change of spatial position need not. Is the "arrow of time" translated then as a sort of predestination for the macro position changes according to the forces in the universe? Thanks for any insight.

 

[phyti]

If I may insert a question that is a real question, not a rhetorical one (even if the question may appear silly): if time is reducible to distance, how is the "arrow of time" translated? That is, on the macro scale, time has the property of going only in one direction, while change of spatial position need not. Is the "arrow of time" translated then as a sort of predestination for the macro position changes according to the forces in the universe? Thanks for any insight.

Spatial dimensions have direction (vectors). Time is only a number (magnitude/scalar). It is cumulative, thus always increasing. All events are historical (assigned times after awareness), so the next event is associated with the next available “time” or clock tick. You can liken this to an “arrow”, but it has no more significance than the imagined lines connecting the stars to form astrological signs. If you assign sequential numbers to customers in line at a deli, what significance do the numbers have, beyond an orderly service?

 

[ghwellsjr]

Don't you think this reduces "time" to motion (a changing spatial position)?

Motion is a changing spatial position but I don't understand why you have picked out "time" as the parameter to be reduced as opposed to "spatial position" to be reduced. Motion has both parameters, "spatial position" divided by "time" or "spatial position" as a function of "time". I'm totally confused about what you are saying and I don't know what it has to do with relativity.

 

[phyti]

Motion is a changing spatial position but I don't understand why you have picked out "time" as the parameter to be reduced as opposed to "spatial position" to be reduced. Motion has both parameters, "spatial position" divided by "time" or "spatial position" as a function of "time". I'm totally confused about what you are saying and I don't know what it has to do with relativity.

It's about "time", wherever it's used.
The question is: "What is the light clock counting with each tick?".
It is counting a multiple of the vertical light path to and from the mirror, i.e. a motion or distance.

 

[ghwellsjr]

It's about "time", wherever it's used.
The question is: "What is the light clock counting with each tick?".
It is counting a multiple of the vertical light path to and from the mirror, i.e. a motion or distance.

Some clocks (like light clocks) do involve motion and distance but not all clocks. The international standard for the second does not involve any motion but rather is defined in terms of specific energy levels of a cesium 133 atom. We could also make a clock based on radioactive decay which does not involve any motion.

So I don't know why you continue to equate or link (or whatever) time with motion or distance. Furthermore, even if you want to use a light clock as your example, I don't understand why you insist that time is fundamentally or really or basically (or whatever) motion or distance rather than saying that distance is fundamentally motion or time.

If we have previously defined the speed of light to be some particular value, then we could define our unit of time in terms of how long it takes light to travel a previously defined unit of distance or we could define our unit of distance in terms of how far light travels in a previously defined unit of time, couldn't we? Or we could define our unit of time independently of the speed of light (like we do now) and we could define our unit of distance independently of the speed of light (like we used to do between 1960 and 1983 when it was based on the wavelength of krypton-86) and then we can measure the speed of light. In your mind, what makes one of these more basic or fundamental or logical or important or significant (or whatever) than the other?

 

[phyti]

Some clocks (like light clocks) do involve motion and distance but not all clocks. The international standard for the second does not involve any motion but rather is defined in terms of specific energy levels of a cesium 133 atom. We could also make a clock based on radioactive decay which does not involve any motion.

So I don't know why you continue to equate or link (or whatever) time with motion or distance. Furthermore, even if you want to use a light clock as your example, I don't understand why you insist that time is fundamentally or really or basically (or whatever) motion or distance rather than saying that distance is fundamentally motion or time.

If we have previously defined the speed of light to be some particular value, then we could define our unit of time in terms of how long it takes light to travel a previously defined unit of distance or we could define our unit of distance in terms of how far light travels in a previously defined unit of time, couldn't we? Or we could define our unit of time independently of the speed of light (like we do now) and we could define our unit of distance independently of the speed of light (like we used to do between 1960 and 1983 when it was based on the wavelength of krypton-86) and then we can measure the speed of light. In your mind, what makes one of these more basic or fundamental or logical or important or significant (or whatever) than the other?

We are just rehashing the same stuff. Wikipedia has a good history of the “second”.

The red text looks like circular reasoning.

All clocks are based on motion. Historically the motion of matter in a device, which is a subdivision of a day or year. The energy level transitions are only observable by emission. It is still a definition of a light second, i.e. a distance traveled by light. The light clock had to wait for the discovery that light speed is not instantaneous.
All definitions of time are derived relations of distance/speed. Distance is a measure of physical space between positions. Speed is a rate of change of position. It’s all about position. There is no known fundamental entity labeled “time”. This is in agreement with Einstein stating time is subjective and dependent on observer speed.

 

[ghwellsjr]

We are just rehashing the same stuff.

I think you have provided more clarification in this post than others, thanks.

Wikipedia has a good history of the “second”.

Yes, they do and here is what they say about the current definition of the second:

Under the International System of Units (via the International Committee for Weights and Measures, or CIPM), since 1967 the second has been defined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom.

I don't see any statement regarding distance, motion or the speed of light in this definition. Where do you see it?

The red text looks like circular reasoning.

There are three parameters involved:
1) The speed of light.
2) The unit of distance.
3) The unit of time.

We can define any two independently and then define or measure the remaining one in terms of the other two. I'm just asking you why you feel that the only valid way is to define the unit of distance and the speed of light independently and then define the unit of time in terms of the other two, as opposed to either of the other two options. (And why you don't seem to understand that the current definitions define the speed of light and the unit of time independently and then define the unit of distance based on the other two.)

All clocks are based on motion. Historically the motion of matter in a device, which is a subdivision of a day or year.

Historically, if you go back far enough, yes, but not now.

The energy level transitions are only observable by emission.

True, but so what?

It is still a definition of a light second, i.e. a distance traveled by light.

Really? What distance? What is the value of the light second that you believe is involved? I have no idea what you are referring to.

The light clock had to wait for the discovery that light speed is not instantaneous.

I agreed that the light clock uses a distance and motion in its definition of time but now we're talking about clocks that don't use distance or motion so let's don't keep going around this circle.

All definitions of time are derived relations of distance/speed.

If you're going to make this claim, you need to explain what you mean with regard to our current definition of the second. Please provide the details because I don't understand where distance or speed is involved.

Distance is a measure of physical space between positions. Speed is a rate of change of position. It’s all about position. There is no known fundamental entity labeled “time”. This is in agreement with Einstein stating time is subjective and dependent on observer speed.

Where did Einstein make that statement? Please provide an online reference and point to the specific location and/or provide a direct quote.

 

[phyti]

I think you have provided more clarification in this post than others, thanks.

Thanks for all your discussions, it requires me to think in detail about my responses.

I agreed that the light clock uses a distance and motion in its definition of time but now we're talking about clocks that don't use distance or motion so let's don't keep going around this circle.

If you're going to make this claim, you need to explain what you mean with regard to our current definition of the second. Please provide the details because I don't understand where distance or speed is involved.

Yes, they do and here is what they say about the current definition of the second:

I don't see any statement regarding distance, motion or the speed of light in this definition. Where do you see it?

1. "duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation"
Even this article is expressing the time (duration) in terms of wave lengths of light, which in this case is: λ = c/ν = 3*108/ 9*109 = 33mm. Obviously (wave length)*(frequency) = c, the distance light travels in 1 second, or 1 light second.

There are three parameters involved:
1) The speed of light.
2) The unit of distance.
3) The unit of time.

We can define any two independently and then define or measure the remaining one in terms of the other two. I'm just asking you why you feel that the only valid way is to define the unit of distance and the speed of light independently and then define the unit of time in terms of the other two, as opposed to either of the other two options. (And why you don't seem to understand that the current definitions define the speed of light and the unit of time independently and then define the unit of distance based on the other two.)

2. The um for distance x is the meter (m). The um for time t is the second. Light speed is cm per second. Then t = x/cm = nm/cm = n/c, i.e. a ratio of distances. Time is a ratio, a number, and numbers aren't physical but abstract relations. This is the same as the ratio vt/ct = v/c in a Minkowski diagram. Measurements have no independent existence beyond their intended purpose. Numbers are dimensionless thus "time" can only be a dimension in a mathematical sense.

You already accepted the current definition of a second, which is based on light speed, so it can't be independent of light speed.

Where did Einstein make that statement? Please provide an online reference and point to the specific location and/or provide a direct quote.

3. From 'The Meaning of Relativity', Albert Einstein, 1956: page 1.
"The experiences of an individual appear to us arranged in a series of events; in this series the single events which we remember appear to be ordered according to the criteria of "earlier" and "later", which cannot be analyzed further. There exists, therefore, for the individual, an I-time, or subjective time."

That time is dependent on observer speed follows from SR, authored by A. Einstein.

 

[Maxila]

I have to agree with Phyti that the SI definition of a second is ultimately the measure for the change of position of light. In spite of the temporal wording using "period" to describe wavelength. Each "period's" fundamental properties is a wave of length created by, and perpendicular to, the direction of a photon emitted from the cesium. It is the speed (the change of position energy) of a photon and length of those wave's that fundamentally cause's and define's the value of each "period" for the 9,192,631,770 waves that define the standard second.

Ultimately the time unit is relegated to being the description (unit measurement) for a change of position within a distance (the photons change of position within the distance of those waves); further as phyti said the time unit (i.e. one second) once defined merely describes a ratio of that distance over change of position.

 

[Nugatory]

1. "duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation"
Even this article is expressing the time (duration) in terms of wave lengths of light, which in this case is: λ = c/ν = 3*108/ 9*109 = 33mm. Obviously (wave length)*(frequency) = c, the distance light travels in 1 second, or 1 light second.

There's no distance or speed in that definition; it is not based on the wave length, and the distance that light travels in one period is irrelevant to the definition of the second. Put a detector at a fixed location, and measure the direction of the electric field. You'll see that it points up for a while, then points down, then points up again. Count those cycles, and when you've counted 9,192,631,770 of them one second has passed.

2...
You already accepted the current definition of a second, which is based on light speed, so it can't be independent of light speed.

Except that as I said above, the definition of the second is not based on light speed. and once we have a definition of the second that is independent of light speed, we can define the meter in terms of the distance that a light signal travel in a given time - again without ever considering what the speed of light might be. We look at where the light is emitted, look at where it is one second later, divide the distance between these two points by 299,792,458 and declare that to be one meter.

Now, it is indisputable that as a result of the way that we've defined the second and the meter, if we measure the speed of light it will come out to 299,792,458 m/sec. However, that does not mean that we need to know the speed of light to define the meter - it's the other way around.

3. From 'The Meaning of Relativity', Albert Einstein, 1956: page 1.
"The experiences of an individual appear to us arranged in a series of events; in this series the single events which we remember appear to be ordered according to the criteria of "earlier" and "later", which cannot be analyzed further. There exists, therefore, for the individual, an I-time, or subjective time."

True enough, but doesn't have anything to do with the metrological definitions of the second and the meter.

 

[phyti]

There's no distance or speed in that definition; ...

We look at where the light is emitted, look at where it is one second later, divide the distance between these two points by 299,792,458 and declare that to be one meter.

You are contradicting yourself (blue). How do you know when one second (red) has elapsed, i.e. you need a definition?

 

[Nugatory]

You are contradicting yourself (blue). How do you know when one second (red) has elapsed, i.e. you need a definition?

I don't see the contradiction... we have a definition of a second. We're counting the up-and-down transitions of the electric field at a single point near the cesium atom and when we've seen 9,192,631,770 of them we say that one second has passed since we started counting. Because we're doing this at a single point we don't consider any distances, the speed of light, or the speed of anything else; we're just counting twitches of a needle.

Here's the thought experiment:
Place a cesium atom, a counter that counts the oscillations of the cesium atom, a light source, and a light detector at a single point in space. Place a mirror at some distance away, arranged so that when the light source flashes, the flash hits the mirror and is reflected back to the light detector.

Now zero the counter and trigger a flash of light. The light flash travel out to the mirror and back to the detector, and we look at the counter value when the light flash hits the detector. We move the mirror back and forth until we find the distance at which the counter counts exactly 18,385,263,540 (that's two times 9,192,631,770) cycles between the flash and the detection the return flash. That's the distance that light travels in one second.

The meter is defined to be that distance, divided by 299,792,458.

 

[nikkkom]

Spatial dimensions have direction (vectors). Time is only a number (magnitude/scalar).

No. In SR, the location, speed, etc vectors have four components, one of them is time; and more to it, different observers will see these vectors' components transform in such a way that "time" component in one coordinate system partially becomes a spatial component.

You can liken this to an “arrow”, but it has no more significance than the imagined lines connecting the stars to form astrological signs.

In SR, velocity vectors of any objects always have time component > 0 (and moreover, ds^2 > 0).
In general, there *are* other vectors in Minkowski space, and the fact that not all of them can be a velocity vector is significant, and makes time special.

 

[Maxila]

I don't see the contradiction... we have a definition of a second. We're counting the up-and-down transitions of the electric field at a single point near the cesium atom and when we've seen 9,192,631,770 of them we say that one second has passed since we started counting. Because we're doing this at a single point we don't consider any distances, the speed of light, or the speed of anything else; we're just counting twitches of a needle.

It’s not scientifically correct to say, or imply that “speed” or distance have nothing to do with the time value that you get from the 9,192,631,770 waves of radiation counted (See BIPM link below). The “duration” of each wave has everything to with the wavelength that runs perpendicular to a photon and its speed. Increase or decrease the each wave length and count the same number of waves you’d get a “longer second” or shorter second. Change the photons “speed” the same holds true. This is no different than if the speed or distance were to change in an Earth rotation or orbit around the sun that the duration value of a day or year would change if that were the mechanism used to define those values.

That is exactly why we switched to the light clock because of the consistency of light “speed” in conjunction with a consistent wavelength that was a more consistent frequency to measure from the hyperfine transition of the ground state cesium 133, than 1/86400 of a mean solar day. The irregularity in the Earth’s rotation (speed) wasn’t as consistent as a photon.

"The unit of time, the second, was at one time considered to be the fraction 1/86400 of the mean solar day. The exact definition of “mean solar day” was left to the astronomers. However measurements showed that irregularities in the rotation of the Earth made this an unsatisfactory definition" http://www.bipm.org/en/si/si_brochure/chapter2/2-1/second.html

You can't get away from the fact that the "cycles" of radiation we count and that you refer to, have the physical properties of length/speed(photon).

 

[Nugatory]

You can't get away from the fact that the "cycles" of radiation we count and that you refer to, have the physical properties of length/speed(photon).

That's true, but I'm not sure how it matters. We've defined the second in a way that requires neither a definition of the meter nor knowledge of the value of the speed of light; then we've defined the meter in a way that uses our definition of the second but still no knowledge of the speed of light; and then the value of the speed of light follows from those two definitions.

It's true that the cycle time of the cesium atom, upon which the whole chain hangs, is suitably invariant because of physics that is based on the invariance of the speed of light. But we've exploit that invariance without knowing the actual value of the speed of light, or equivalently the frequency-wavelength relationship.

 

[phyti]

I don't see the contradiction... we have a definition of a second. We're counting the up-and-down transitions of the electric field at a single point near the cesium atom and when we've seen 9,192,631,770 of them we say that one second has passed since we started counting. Because we're doing this at a single point we don't consider any distances, the speed of light, or the speed of anything else; we're just counting twitches of a needle.

In reality, light has passed, and has moved 1 light second relative to that point.

You could also let the em signal pass an antenna with a counter.

“..since 1967 the second has been defined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the RADIATION corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom.”

frequency*wavelength = speed of light = constant per experimental evidence
With s for second and m for meter:
the definition of the second states: 1s = 1m/c = 1m/νλm = 1/νλ.
Any νλ combination equal to c will work.
Please note λ is a distance.
No matter how it’s sliced and diced, the definition is still 1 light second.

 

[phyti]

No. In SR, the location, speed, etc vectors have four components, one of them is time; and more to it, different observers will see these vectors' components transform in such a way that "time" component in one coordinate system partially becomes a spatial component.



In SR, velocity vectors of any objects always have time component > 0 (and moreover, ds^2 > 0).
In general, there *are* other vectors in Minkowski space, and the fact that not all of them can be a velocity vector is significant, and makes time special.

My quote, post 31:
"Numbers are dimensionless thus "time" can only be a dimension in a mathematical sense."

I'm not referring to the 4D theoretical interpretation.

 

[Maxila]

That's true, but I'm not sure how it matters. We've defined the second in a way that requires neither a definition of the meter nor knowledge of the value of the speed of light; then we've defined the meter in a way that uses our definition of the second but still no knowledge of the speed of light;

The two observationally fundamental components of motion are distance and change of position energy (what we observe as speed). When early man used the Earth’s rotation as a clock to define one day they did not know the Earth’s circumferences (distance) at any latitude over the speed at those latitudes, nor did they need know or define those values of distance/speed; because once they define one rotation as a day, they unknowingly defined the distance/speed at every latitude. The reason is because all those values are integral. Simple algebra shows that (where t is time, d is distance, s is speed), whether you write t=d/s or s=d/t or d=s*t each value is integral, in defining one, by default you have defined the other two, whether you knew it or not (note that t=d/s is where you can see time as a simple ratio of d/s).

The least intuitive for most people is distance (separation between two points or objects) being integral to time and speed. In addition to the simple algebraic relationship, if one imagined a universe where nothing could change position (no motion), every distance would be infinitely far away in time, it is only by motion (the ability to change position in space) that distance has meaning. That also explains why space-time is an integral relationship, simply put it is at least one Euclidean length in conjunction with time (a standard of motion or distance/speed), distance has no meaning without motion and is fundamental to a meaning of time. Don’t forget that we usually refer to large distances in time, like a light year, instead of a static distance (roughly 5.878625 trillion miles), exactly because they are merely different ways of stating the same integral relationship.

I hope that explains why, implying that defining one second has no bearing or consideration to the definition of length or speed, is incorrect. Once you define one term you have by default defined the other two, and as we discussed, the fundamental properties of distance (wavelength) and speed (the change of position energy of a photon), are integral to the "periods" that define a standard second.

 

[ghwellsjr]

That is exactly why we switched to the light clock because of the consistency of light “speed” in conjunction with a consistent wavelength that was a more consistent frequency to measure from the hyperfine transition of the ground state cesium 133, than 1/86400 of a mean solar day.

Are you saying that a cesium 133 atom is a light clock?

 

[ghwellsjr]

I hope that explains why, implying that defining one second has no bearing or consideration to the definition of length or speed, is incorrect. Once you define one term you have by default defined the other two, and as we discussed, the fundamental properties of distance (wavelength) and speed (the change of position energy of a photon), are integral to the "periods" that define a standard second.

Are you sure you want to make this claim?

If you do, how does defining the speed of light to be 299792458 m/s give you any clue as to how long a second is or how long a meter is?

 

[Maxila]

Are you saying that a cesium 133 atom is a light clock?

Yes I am saying the radiation frequency used to define a second is EM. While we may measure it in the oscillation of the cesium atom, light speed and wavelength are the cause of that oscillation.

"For the ultimate in accuracy, scientists reach for atoms, or more precisely, an exactly known frequency of light emitted by a chosen atom. The 'ticks' are the crests of a light wave,"

Source:http://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?org=DMR&cntn_id=114850&preview=false

 

[ghwellsjr]

Are you saying that a cesium 133 atom is a light clock?

Yes I am saying the radiation frequency used to define a second is EM. While we may measure it in the oscillation of the cesium atom, light speed and wavelength are the cause of that oscillation.

"For the ultimate in accuracy, scientists reach for atoms, or more precisely, an exactly known frequency of light emitted by a chosen atom. The 'ticks' are the crests of a light wave,"

Source:http://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?org=DMR&cntn_id=114850&preview=false

I always thought a light clock had a photon or a burst of photons that oscillated at the speed of light between two mirrors and the ticks occurred when the photon(s) bounced off one of the mirrors. As such, a light clock emits no radiation or it would quickly lose its oscillating photon(s). Even if you did provide an energy source for a practical light clock, the wavelength of the oscillating photon(s) or the wavelength of the amplified flashes coming out of the light clock coincident with each tick would not be significant, it's only the time between flashes that provides the timing of the light clock to an external observer.

You apparently have a different idea of what a light clock is than I have and what I think most other people have. So I need to know more details of what you claim goes on inside the cesium atom that permits it to be called a light clock. For instance, what distance are the photons traveling as they oscillate back and forth at the speed of light? And where does the energy come from that provides for the detectable radiation?

 

[Maxila]

If you do, how does defining the speed of light to be 299792458 m/s give you any clue as to how long a second is or how long a meter is?

First, the standard we use to define the meter is based on the standard we used to define a second (light), "The metre is the length of the path traveled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299 792 458 of a second". Source: http://www.bipm.org/en/si/base_units/metre.html

All clocks (I have examined) use a consistent motion and quantize that motion as a frequency unit to drive their time. Once you assign a motion to a value of time, inherent in that value is a distance. The physical distance inherent in a second is the length of 9,192,631,770 waves, which by definition, now must equal any distance value we assign to lights change of position per second, i.e. 299,792,248 meters, 186,000 miles, etc.

To further illustrate it; if you set the motion of one Earth Rotation to a time standard value of one day, than at the Equator any distance unit you decide to use (arbitrary or current standard) to describe that diameter instantly becomes the value for its speed per day. Using miles, 25,000 miles per day, kilometers 40,000 kilometers per day, if I wanted to use the length of a American football field as a distance standard the speed would become 440,000 football field lengths per day, etc. etc. Distance and speed at other latitudes are merely proportional ratios of those values (if you don't believe me calculate a few).

So I need to know more details of what you claim goes on inside the cesium atom that permits it to be called a light clock.

The exact same thing holds true for the atomic clock, the oscillation is just a quantized unit of light motion (the "speed" and distance between wave crests, see link in previous post), the same as the frequency of a day being the Earth’s motion between rotations. Due to the integral relationship of time, distance and speed, once you set a standard time to a motion, the distance of that motion (for whatever value you assign to it) must also become the speed per that time unit.

That is “how does defining the speed of light give you any clue as to how long a second is or how long a meter is?” We define speed as a unit of distance per time, and empirically time is a change of position within a distance. When defining time you have by default defined a value and ratio relationship for a change of position within a distance.

 

[ghwellsjr]

So I need to know more details of what you claim goes on inside the cesium atom that permits it to be called a light clock.

The exact same thing holds true for the atomic clock, the oscillation is just a quantized unit of light motion (the "speed" and distance between wave crests, see link in previous post)...

The distance between wave crests is 33 mm according to phyti:

λ = c/ν = 3*108/ 9*109 = 33mm.

Let me make sure I have this straight: you're saying that the oscillation of the light motion inside the cesium atom covers a distance of 33 mm, correct?

 

[Maxila]

The distance between wave crests is 33 mm according to phyti:


Let me make sure I have this straight: you're saying that the oscillation of the light motion inside the cesium atom covers a distance of 33 mm, correct?

I'm saying that is the physical distance between light crests resulting in the oscillation. Just as there is a physical distance to the oscillation of a pendulum of a grandfather clock, or the quartz crystal used in most electronic clocks, or the Earths rotation, etc. Time keeping devices (and I suspect all empirical time events), have the same fundamental property of a magnitude for change of position within a distance (we often refer to that magnitude as speed).

As for Phyti's calculation λ = c/ν is simple to calculate so let’s check using meters for our units.

Where c =299,792,458 m/s and ν = 9,192,631,770Hz

λ = 299792458 / 9192631770

λ = 0.032612259265146 meters = 32.612259265146mm ≈ 33mm

A reference link to the equation is here: http://physics.uoregon.edu/~soper/light/frequency.html

 

[Nugatory]

λ = 0.032612259265146 meters = 32.612259265146mm ≈ 33mm

[Not arguing here, just commenting]

That's true, but also something of a tautology: "33mm" is is defined in such a way that it has to be that distance between the crests. This follows from the way that we've started with the statement that no matter what the speed of light is, we're going to define the meter to be whatever length makes that speed come out to 299,792,458 meters/sec, and then defined the millimeter to be one one-thousandth of a meter.

That 299,792,458 is every bit as arbitrary as the 1000 that we use to define the millimeter in terms of the meter. The only reason it's not a round number is that the inconvenience of throwing out all of our existing meter sticks would be far greater than the inconvenience of dealing with a non-round number.

 

[Maxila]

[Not arguing here, just commenting]

That's true, but also something of a tautology: "33mm" is is defined in such a way that it has to be that distance between the crests. This follows from the way that we've started with the statement that no matter what the speed of light is, we're going to define the meter to be whatever length makes that speed come out to 299,792,458 meters/sec, and then defined the millimeter to be one one-thousandth of a meter.

You are correct, that is what I tried to say in an earlier post of the time and distance relationship being integral (defining one by default defines the other). I also tried to illustrate that using one Earth rotation defined as the frequency (or period) of a day, any distance value you assign to the Earth’s diameter also becomes bound to that time unit (one day).

In fact it doesn’t matter if you assigned a distance to a different latitude circumference instead of the diameter, as the period (one day/ one rotation) represents a ratio of the magnitude in change of position within a distance. The magnitude I refer to is commonly known as speed; however with the definition of speed being a change in distance per time you get trapped in the same circular argument of duration (period), distance, and speed. That’s why it helps to look at the fundamental dynamics and causality.

Everything we discussed for any empirical change in time boils down to the dynamics and states of energy. It is energy (in some state) that is the cause, and is observed in the change of position in every oscillator. While we refer to a period in between oscillations as duration, fundamentally it is just two points in between a change of position. In other words the duration (period, oscillation) is the measurement between two points of energy’s change in position. That duration has no fundamental role or existence beyond describing a unit measurement for the change of position in energy that relates to a distance.