Vbe temperature coefficient of transistors

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Vbe temperature coefficient of transistors, specifically addressing the relationship between temperature changes and collector current behavior. Participants explore the implications of Vbe decreasing with increasing temperature and how this affects current flow in transistor circuits, particularly in common emitter configurations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why an increase in temperature, which leads to a decrease in Vbe, results in an increase in collector current, suggesting a potential misunderstanding of the relationship between Vbe and emitter current.
  • Another participant explains that a decrease in Vbe leads to an increase in base current (Ib), which in turn increases collector current, noting that beta also increases with temperature, contributing to this effect.
  • A third participant provides a detailed explanation of how the forward voltage drop of a p-n junction decreases with temperature, emphasizing that at higher temperatures, more carriers are available, making it easier for current to flow.
  • One participant describes a scenario involving a transistor in a common emitter configuration, illustrating how an increase in temperature could lead to an increase in emitter and collector current, while also warning about the potential for thermal runaway without negative feedback.
  • A later reply confirms the understanding of the previous participant and discusses the complexity of determining actual emitter current using the Ebers-Moll model, highlighting the temperature dependence of the saturation current.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the relationship between Vbe, temperature, and collector current. While some explanations are accepted, there is no consensus on the initial confusion regarding the implications of Vbe changes with temperature.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the behavior of p-n junctions and the specifics of transistor operation that may not be universally applicable. The relationship between Vbe, collector current, and temperature is complex and influenced by multiple factors, including the specific circuit configuration and component characteristics.

bitrex
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Something I'm having trouble grasping - if the Vbe temperature coefficient is -2 mv/degree C, why does the collector current INCREASE instead of decrease with increasing temperature? If the temperature rises and the voltage base to emitter drops, wouldn't the smaller Vbe cause less emitter current to flow?
 
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A decease in VBE means an increase in Ib. This increase causes the collector current to increase. Also beta increases with temperature. The increase in base current is like saying the input resistance has decreased with rising temperature giving a net effect of a decreased VBE. These are all factors that cause the collector current to increase from its Q-point value.
 
When we say that Vbe goes down 2 mV per degree C, that is based on a specific current value. Any p-n junction exhibits this characteristic. At 25 deg C ambient, with 1.0 mA of forward current, a p-n junction measures 0.65 V forward drop. If the temperature is elevated to 50 deg C, then the forward voltage drop of the junction decreases (2 mV/deg C) * 25 deg C = 50 mV, as long as the current is the same. Thus at 50 deg C with 1.0 mA of forward current, the forward voltage drop is 50 mV less than the 0.65 V at 25 C, which is 0.60 V.

At higher temperature, a p-n junction has more carriers available due to increased thermal energy. Hence at 50 C, the junction is easier to drive than at 25 C. A given current incurs a smaller voltage drop at higher temp.

Does this help?

Claude
 
Last edited:
I think I understand now. Say I have a transistor in CE configuration with an emitter resistor, biased for some current. I have the base biased to say 1.6 volts at ambient temperature, so the transistor is in its active region, so the voltage across that emitter resistor 1.6-0.6 = 1 volt. Now, if the temperature increases, the voltage drop across the base to emitter junction might decrease to 0.5 volts, in which case I have 1.6-0.5 = 1.1 volts across the emitter resistor, which tends to increase the emitter and hence the collector current. This could lead to thermal runaway if there were no resistor to apply negative feedback where the increased current generates heat, which causes the Vbe drop to decrease more, generating more heat, etc. Does that sound about right? I think I was confused because I was mistaking the intrinsic base to emitter drop, which changes with temperature, to the applied voltage base to emitter, which determines the emitter current through the Ebers-Moll model.
 
You've got it right. To determine the actual Ie via E-M model involves a transcendental equation solution, not straightforward. The 2 equations are

1) Vbb - Vbe = Vre = IeRe, or Vbe = Vbb - IeRe.

2) Vbe = Vt * ln((Ie/Ies(T)) + 1)), where Ies(T) is a strong function of temperature, the saturation current (aka "scaling current"), Vt = thermal voltage = kT/q, as k = the Boltzmann constant, T = absolute temp, & q = charge of 1 electron.

The difficulty is that Ies is temperature dependent. The best method is what you did. Use the spec sheet graphs to find Vbe at various temps. But your thinking is sound. You seem to have a good grip on the basics.

Claude
 

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