Vegetarians are smarter than meat eaters

[ShawnD]

Idiocy is not the realm of diet. If you wish to make such an offensive ad hominem attack you should provide some evidence to support your point.

Iodine deficiency:
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/iodine.php

About half the iodine consumption in the UK comes from dairy products. In the US iodised salt is widely used and some other foods are fortified with iodine. In Canada all table salt is iodized. The UK has no iodine fortification strategy for plant foods or salt.

You'll need to take supplements for iodine if you live in the UK or any other country in the world that does not have iodized salt.

And down 1 paragraph from that

Consumption of brassicas, such as cabbage, Brussels sprouts, broccoli and cauliflower, increase the requirements for iodine, especially if consumed raw. Soy beans, raw flaxseed, cassava (used in tapioca), sweet potatoes, lima beans, maize and millet also increase the requirements for iodine.

That's interesting. Now that you are consuming less iodine, the vegetables increase the body's demand for iodine.

Calcium:
The majority of calcium and magnesium for meat eaters and non-vegan vegetarians comes from milk and cheese. For vegans, it comes from nuts and calcium pills.

Essential Amino Acids:
Essential means it is needed by humans but cannot be produced by humans. The greatest sources of other protein building blocks (amino acids) are other creatures made of protein, such as birds, bovine, and fish. Essential amino acids are also found in certain types of plant oil.

Iron:
All animals require iron, so eating anything from an animal will have iron in it, including milk. Vegans need to each spinach or take supplements.

Vitamin B12:
Vegans need to take more pills for this one.

Vitamin D:
Another vitamin found in all animals. Vegans do not consume animals, so they rely on supplements.


Now for the question of how to fill each of these crucial health demands. A normal vegetarian can get all of these from drinking a glass of milk. A vegan needs to eat the following things:
-iodine supplement
-nuts
-flaxseed oil
-spinach
-Vitamin B12 supplement
-Vitamin D supplement

Simple vegetarianism is easy; replace meat with beans. Going vegan should probably set off a few alarms when you realize you need to research how not to become sick while following a particular diet.

 

[ShawnD]

To start with you do not get carbs from meat, so this point is meaningless.

Show me the exact line where I said meat contains carbs.

Milk does not have a lot of good things in it. More than half of it's calories come from saturated fats.

Most of its calories are from fat because it contains very few calories, and ordinary cow milk you buy at a store is 1,2, or 3% fat(homo is ~3% give or take). 3% fat means it's 97% water. What percentage of orange juice is water? Probably about the same thing, but juice contains carbs instead of fats; not all that different really.

7 out of 10 people are lactose intolerant

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance
12% of Americans

Since bone is metabolically more active than muscle, I think that physical activity may play a more important role than diet. Vegans are generally more active, especially in their later years than meat eaters.

This seems reasonable. Anybody who puts major planning into their diet would probably put that same kind of planning towards other things.

 

[GCT]

According to recent study, vegetarians average 5 IQ points higher than meat chompers.



But I already knew that.

Again, more waste of valuable research funds

 

[turbo]

Probably the most significant, immediate change that one notices when they switch to a plant based diet is the regularity of bowel movements. it is not at all uncommon for a vegan to have a bowel movement shortly after each meal. Most people that eat a meat based diet are lucky to have one a day.

Perhaps you should compare this with the bowel movements of a rabbit or a deer, both of which drop feces very regularly as they eat. This isn't rocket-science!

 

[Skyhunter]

We don't digest fiber. Our intestine has neither a functional cecum (just a non-functional appendix) nor a rumen, which herbivores capable of digesting fiber has.

I wasn't suggesting that we can. My point was that our intestinal tract is better suited to a high fiber diet.

More frequent bowel movements aren't an indicator of better efficiency, it's an indicator of more waste! All that undigestible fiber runs right through the digestive system quickly rather than being utilized.

The undigested meat gets stuck on the irregular surface of the inner walls of the colon and does what old meat does, it rots.

The fiber however is essential to keeping the digestive tract clean and operating at peak efficiency.

But don't take my word for it.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3225/is_n3_v45/ai_12026562

3. Include a variety of vegetables and fruits in the daily diet. Vegetables and fruits contain varying amounts of vitamins, minerals, fiber and non-nutritive constituents, which, consumed alone or in combination, may be responsible for reducing cancer risk.

4. Eat more food high in dietary fiber, such as whole-grain cereals, legumes, vegetables and fruits. A high-fiber diet may reduce the risk of colon cancer. Even if specific types of fiber may not ultimately prove to have a direct protective effect against cancer, high-fiber vegetables, fruits and cereals can be recommended as wholesome low-calorie substitutes for high-calorie fatty foods.

When I eat a proper amount of plant based food, to maintain optimum health, as recommended by the American Cancer Society, I find I have no room left for the charred flesh of a dead animal.

 

[russ_watters]

When I eat a proper amount of plant based food, to maintain optimum health, as recommended by the American Cancer Society, I find I have no room left for the charred flesh of a dead animal.

So...how is overfilling yourself a sign of efficiency?

 

[Skyhunter]

Iodine deficiency:
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/iodine.php


You'll need to take supplements for iodine if you live in the UK or any other country in the world that does not have iodized salt.

And down 1 paragraph from that

That's interesting. Now that you are consuming less iodine, the vegetables increase the body's demand for iodine.

Iodine content in fruits and vegetables depends on the soil in which they are grown. The iodine in milk comes from feed supplements and disinfectants.

I don't take supplements, and the little salt I put in my food is sea salt which contains iodine. I like to toast seaweed and crumble it over top of my salad. Thereby easily satisfying my RDA of iodine.

Calcium:
The majority of calcium and magnesium for meat eaters and non-vegan vegetarians comes from milk and cheese. For vegans, it comes from nuts and calcium pills.

Where you get calcium is just as important as how much. Look back at the USDA osteoperosis study I posted,(courtesy your suggestion) higher intake of calcium by omnivores did not increase bone growth. In fact studies suggest that the higher acidity of the animal based foods can actually lead to a net loss of bone mass.

As for plant based sources for calcium;
Here is a good resource.

Essential means it is needed by humans but cannot be produced by humans. The greatest sources of other protein building blocks (amino acids) are other creatures made of protein, such as birds, bovine, and fish. Essential amino acids are also found in certain types of plant oil.

The nine essential amino acids are also found in plant foods. Not all plant foods are complete, (contain all nine) but as long as you are getting enough calories and eat a variety of foods there is no need to concern oneself with getting enough protein.

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm

It is very easy for a vegan diet to meet the recommendations for protein, as long as calorie intake is adequate. Strict protein combining is not necessary; it is more important to eat a varied diet throughout the day.

To much protein is more likely to cause health problems than too little. To my knowledge, there is not a single medical case of someone suffering a protein deficiency, while still consuming adequate calories.

Another interesting point about protein.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache...er+cancer+connection&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

High protein intakes of 20 to 25 percent of calories may enhance tumor growth whereas low protein levels suppress it.

Note, when the protein is plant based, high level intake of protein does not enhance tumor growth.

Iron:
All animals require iron, so eating anything from an animal will have iron in it, including milk. Vegans need to each spinach or take supplements.

There are many other good sources of iron for vegans besides spinach. Not that I don't eat my share of spinach.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/iron.html

Good sources of iron for vegetarians include wholegrain cereals and flours, leafy green vegetables, blackstrap molasses, pulses such as lentils and kidney beans, and some dried fruits.

Despite iron from plant foods being less readily absorbed research has shown that vegetarians are no more likely to suffer from iron deficiency than non-vegetarians. Draper & Wheeler (1989) have stated there is no indication of increased prevalence of iron deficiency amongst vegetarians. Anderson (1981) found the iron status of long-term vegetarian women to be adequate, despite a high intake of fibre and phytate.

Vitamin B12:
Vegans need to take more pills for this one.

Wrong again, although many dietitians recommend B12 supplements they are not necessary. Rice milk and Soy milk are both supplemented with B12. However I get my B12 from nutritional yeast, which when mixed with ground walnuts makes a very tasty and nutritional substitute for parmesan cheese.

Dirt is also a very good source of B12, but I dropped that from my diet when I was two or three years old. Although I still sometimes eat fresh roots with only a cursory rinsing.

Vitamin D:
Another vitamin found in all animals. Vegans do not consume animals, so they rely on supplements.

Once again I cannot see this as a good reason to slaughter a living creature. There are far more benign ways to get ones RDA of vitamin D.

Me, I like the sun.

http://dietary-supplements.info.nih.gov/factsheets/vitamind.asp

Sun exposure is perhaps the most important source of vitamin D because exposure to sunlight provides most humans with their vitamin D requirement

Now for the question of how to fill each of these crucial health demands. A normal vegetarian can get all of these from drinking a glass of milk.

And what else are they getting with that glass of milk.

Amazing I went to the http://www.nationaldairycouncil.org/NationalDairyCouncil/

I had to go navigate through five pages of milk promotion in order to get to what I thought would be nutritional information. Where I arrived finally was http://www.nationaldairycouncil.org/NationalDairyCouncil/Nutrition/Products/MilksNutrientPackage.htm Another slick milk promo.

Fortunately I was able to find much better sources of information. The http://www.fns.usda.gov/TN/Resources/Nibbles/for_bones.pdf Not that they are particularly better in practice, but at least they are more honest about the nutrition information. If you read the top of the three labels, and what has been circled in red, you see in a word what is wrong with milk. Fat, and lots of it.

Anyone who thinks that milk does a body good should read this;

http://www.rense.com/general26/milk.htm

Yes... milk is Mother Nature's "perfect food" ...for a calf... until it is weaned.

Everything you know about cow's milk and dairy is probably part of a Dairy industry MYTH.

Cow's milk is an unhealthy fluid from diseased animals that contains a wide range of dangerous and disease-causing substances that have a cumulative negative effect on all who consume it.

Here is what the http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/dairy.html has to say about milk.

Milk and dairy products are not necessary in the diet and can, in fact, be harmful to your health. Consume a healthful diet of grains, fruits, vegetables, legumes, and fortified foods including cereals and juices. These nutrient-dense foods can help you meet your calcium, potassium, riboflavin, and vitamin D requirements with ease—and without the health risks.

One can look further, there are a myriad of studies that demonstrate the adverse health effects of milk.

A vegan needs to eat the following things:
-iodine supplement
-nuts
-flaxseed oil
-spinach
-Vitamin B12 supplement
-Vitamin D supplement

The iodine in milk is derived from feed supplements and/or disinfectant residue left on the milking equipment.

No thanks I will get mine from seaweed.

Nuts are fine, I eat those. I use fresh ground flaxseed, not the oil, and spinach I eat all the time.

None of the supplements are necessary or desirable. I am not certain that supplements are even absorbed by the body. I suspect that the largest portion of these so called supplements just get flushed down a urinal.

Simple vegetarianism is easy; replace meat with beans. Going vegan should probably set off a few alarms when you realize you need to research how not to become sick while following a particular diet.

Must say I heartily agree with you about researching what you eat. In fact I think this post is a good example of some of that reseaerch.

I was about 20 - 25lbs overweight, and decided to stop eating meat. I figured, I am going to give up a vital portion of my diet, so I need to research what I need to replace it with. It was as a result of that research that I decided vegan was better, because dairy has even greater side effects than lean meats. As a consequence of my decision, I am now enjoying the best health of my lifetime.

Another person who became vegan after doing some research. T. Colin Campbell, author of "The China Study".

He grew up on a dairy farm and did his college thesis on raising beef more efficiently.

Campbell is a remarkable man, he has been involved in nutrition research at the highest levels for 50 years. He has headed up 70 years (simultaneous research) worth of research funded by the National Institute of Health and other public health institutions. He switched to a whole foods plant based diet 15 or so years ago.

Here is an 11 minute http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/campbell_qa_expo.htm excerpt of a Q&A after one of his presentations.

Here is one of his latest presentations on cancer, the primary field of focus for the research he has done.

http://www.vegsource.com/video/colin.wmv.htm

 

[MeJennifer]

I've never understood vegetarians:
How can they prefer a wilted piece of salad to a tasty piece of meat?

It is really not hard to understand arildno.
Do you think eating is all about satisfying desires?

The primary function of eating is getting essential nutrients for your body. That it satisfies your desires is a plus but not the primary function.

I do not eat meat but I do eat occasionally fish, I think that is the best diet, primarily vegetarian substituted with fish.

 

[Skyhunter]

Show me the exact line where I said meat contains carbs.

You did not, I discarded carbs as irrelevant to your point and therefore unnecessary of further comment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance
12% of Americans

Here is a better explanation for what I am meant by lactose intolerance.

http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/dairy.html

Lactose intolerance is common among many populations, affecting approximately 95 percent of Asian Americans, 74 percent of Native Americans, 70 percent of African Americans, 53 percent of Mexican Americans, and 15 percent of Caucasians.19 Symptoms, which include gastrointestinal distress, diarrhea, and flatulence, occur because these individuals do not have the enzymes that digest the milk sugar lactose. Additionally, along with unwanted symptoms, milk-drinkers are also putting themselves at risk for development of other chronic diseases and ailments.

This seems reasonable. Anybody who puts major planning into their diet would probably put that same kind of planning towards other things.

It really does not require much planning at all.

The basic guidelines I follow are:

1: Plant based
2: Unprocessed (whole food)
3: Variety, including a variety of colors.
4: Conciously eat food with certain micronutrients that are not abundant in plant foods, like iodine, B12, and Omega-3 fats.

 

[Skyhunter]

So...how is overfilling yourself a sign of efficiency?

Did I say I ate more than my fill?

No, I clearly said proper amount. Which BTW is not at all overfilling, digests quickly, and gives me lots of energy for work and play.

 

[Skyhunter]

I do not eat meat but I do eat occasionally fish, I think that is the best diet, primarily vegetarian substituted with fish.

Good for you.

So you are one of the smart ones in the study.

I think you will especially find Cambells lectures to be interesting.

 

[Danger]

When I eat a proper amount of plant based food... ...I find I have no room left for the charred flesh of a dead animal.

This is precisely why I always refuse a starter salad.

 

[turbo]

This is precisely why I always refuse a starter salad.

Me, too! Well space considerations and the threat of E. coli. Pass those ribs, you hog!

 

[pace]

Anyway, I think we can conclude with that statistics are really annoying.

 

[DaveC426913]

... the little salt I put in my food is sea salt which contains iodine...

You sure about that?

I buy sea salt for the sole reason that it does NOT have iodine in it. It's what you need for fish tanks (freshwater).

To get salt with iodine, you have to buy iodized salt.

 

[Skyhunter]

You sure about that?

I buy sea salt for the sole reason that it does NOT have iodine in it. It's what you need for fish tanks (freshwater).

To get salt with iodine, you have to buy iodized salt.

I think you might be right. I don't have the container anymore to check the ingredients. I do seem to vaguely remember having this discussion once and I think that you are right in that.

Iodine is not a particular concern since the seaweed I eat is quite an adequate source. I rarely add salt to anything I prepare or eat.

 

[lunarmansion]

One cannot compare the I.Q's of vegetarians and meat eaters, but some famous men were vegetarians. I was a complete vegetarian for three years-I could not keep up with it because of a hectic life style-I did not have time to cook proper vegetarian food, but I can tell you that your body feels incredibly light somehow-not from lack of strength. But vegans I cannot understand. I do not think I can exist without yogurt and cheese. I now eat fish and white meat and sometimes red but I might want to go back to stop eating meat when I have a less hectic lifestyle and can cook more. It is not for everyone. It is hard to imagine people in cold northern countries not eating meat historically, it was too cold for them to be vegetarians- it is not a wonder that vegetarianism arose in places with a mild climate.

 

[Chi Meson]

Erm...

Isaac Newton, vegetarian? Let's check from the mouths of the cabbage-chewers themselves...
http://www.ivu.org/history/renaissance/Newton.html

And Einstein? Same source:
http://www.ivu.org/history/northam20a/einstein.html

 

[lunarmansion]

Well it could be that they were not. It was just a site I thought was curious considering the names-but probably not a reliable site, as is with the case with such sites. I have been a meat eater and eat meat now and was a complete vegetarian for about three years-I can tell you, there is something to it and it is not for everyone-I stopped because my lifestyle did not permit it and I think I might like to return to it someday if I am able to cook more. Your body does feel somehow light and different in my experience as a vegetarian. Vegetarianism is there for those who want to be vegetarian-I just don't like it when people insist on it for others. It is as if one were to insist everyone has to eat meat. I do know for sure that Shaw was a vegetarian as well as Thoreau and Emerson. It was an interesting experience being a complete vegetarian for me for three years-a good experiment on my body and mind in terms of the effects of food, that is all I can say. Even the Buddha is said by some sources to have died after eating a hearty dish of pork! So it is all a matter of individual preference. As with everything, it becomes annoying when people begin to insist upon it for everyone, for it is not for everyone.
I think the new age types ruin ruin it-traditionally vegetarianism arose from trying to abstain from cruelty to animals as is possible, a nice ideal and for a desire for purity in food. It is the same with yoga-in its original form it was associated with spiritual endeavors, but now is just gymnastics for most people. My favorite vegetarians were Pythagoras, and Leonardo, Francis of Assisi.

 

[Chi Meson]

^
I agree mostly.
I was also a vegetarian for "economic" reasons for about three years. It was a hassle that was made less problematic since my house-mate was a strict vegetarian and knew all the tricks.

Basically, I got really tired of hummos. And the farting.

 

[Skyhunter]

My favorite vegetarians were Pythagoras and Leonardo.

Ben Franklin is my favorite vegetarian. I have heard this quote attributed to him but I don't have any citations.

Old Ben said; "Fart proudly"

 

[Chi Meson]

Ben Franklin is my favorite vegetarian. I have heard this quote attributed to him but I don't have any citations.

Old Ben said; "Fart proudly"

Ben was great wasn't he? I named my youngest son after him.

 

[sog]

Dirt is also a very good source of B12, but I dropped that from my diet when I was two or three years old. Although I still sometimes eat fresh roots with only a cursory rinsing.

Ever hear of parasitic worms? Have you ever clensed your colon? An excellent way to get parasitic worms is to eat some dirt. I scrub my vegetables thoroughly to make sure no worms are living on the surface and that goes for roots too.

I don't care for the fat in animal meat, but fish is just fine with me. Fish oil is excellent nutrition for the brain. Coupled with ginko to open the fine blood vessals I can get a lot more milage out of my brain and with bilberry that gets down to the very smallest blood vessals, to open them, it is also very benificial for the eyes. (btw don't waste bilberry by taking it in a cap. Brake it open and savor the flavor and the saliva will make it digest better too.)

My quid pro quo

 

[Weave]

Lets face it people, we all eat different things and nothing is going to change that. I eat meat but I also respect the people who don't. And critisizing one another doesn't help; I will continue to eat meat the vegies will do what they do- its all a matter of choice. And for the animal rights activist all I got to say is: we are the dominate spieces. If the bears were at the top of food chain, I'm sure they wouldn't hesitate to eat us.

 

[loseyourname]

Heck, bears won't hesitate to eat us as it is.

 

[Danger]

 

[MeJennifer]

And for the animal rights activist all I got to say is: we are the dominate spieces.

Well just because we can do something does not mean we have to.
What about fois gras for instance?
So we are dominant, so we can stuff animals to get a bigger liver, that's all there is to it?

 

[Monique]

I will continue to eat meat the vegies will do what they do- its all a matter of choice. And for the animal rights activist all I got to say is: we are the dominate spieces. If the bears were at the top of food chain, I'm sure they wouldn't hesitate to eat us.

If the bears would be on top of the food chain, would you be happy to sit on bars in a steel cage for your whole life having nothing to do, and be eaten one day. Or would you rather have that the bear ate you one day when you were not expecting it?

 

[turbo]

If the bears would be on top of the food chain, would you be happy to sit on bars in a steel cage for your whole life having nothing to do, and be eaten one day. Or would you rather have that the bear ate you one day when you were not expecting it?

Good point. When people give me crap about hunting deer, I point out that at least the deer have had a good life in freedom, and I only take a sure killing shot (I hunt with a single-shot rifle, so no quick second shot is available). In contrast the cows and pigs that they eat have spent all their lives in captivity, often with little exercise and no chance to forage for the food that THEY want. I think the deer have the better end of the deal.

 

[Dr.Brain]

Good point. When people give me crap about hunting deer, I point out that at least the deer have had a good life in freedom, and I only take a sure killing shot (I hunt with a single-shot rifle, so no quick second shot is available). In contrast the cows and pigs that they eat have spent all their lives in captivity, often with little exercise and no chance to forage for the food that THEY want. I think the deer have the better end of the deal.

that in no way justifies why you should kill a deer ..

 

[turbo]

that in no way justifies why you should kill a deer ..

For food, instead of going to the store and buying food that somebody else has harvested and packed for you. If you eat meat or use products derived from domesticated animals, you should be willing to get your hands dirty - then you will gain respect for the animals you exploit.

 

[russ_watters]

If the bears would be on top of the food chain, would you be happy to sit on bars in a steel cage for your whole life having nothing to do, and be eaten one day. Or would you rather have that the bear ate you one day when you were not expecting it?

Ask the bear which he prefers...

 

[radou]

If the bears were at the top of food chain, I'm sure they wouldn't hesitate to eat us.

Yeah, and I'm sure Winnie the Pooh wouldn't be so popular among kids.

 

[Monique]

Ask the bear which he prefers...

The bear gets his food either way.

 

[Andre]

Yeah, and I'm sure Winnie the Pooh wouldn't be so popular among kids.

What bears eat? Hunny, of course, but watch out: When having a smackerel of something with a friend, don't eat so much that you get stuck in the doorway trying to get out. bears of very little brain must not forget that.

 

[Evo]

Ben Franklin is my favorite vegetarian.

Although he reduced the amount of meat he ate, he was not actually a vegetarian, that's a false assumption many have made.

"Ben was a vegetarian. False. Evidence suggests young Franklin was adverse to killing animals for food. He also figured vegetables cost less than meat, so he could spend more of his earnings on books. His diet wasn’t completely meat and fish free, though.

http://www.udel.edu/PR/UDaily/2005/mar/franklin061605.html

"The following February, Franklin wrote again to Collinson,
announcing his decidedly mixed results. “Please to acquaint
[William Watson] that we made several experiments on fowls
this winter,” he began, proceeding to describe precisely how
strong a shock had killed a chicken. “But the turkeys,” he
continued, “though thrown into violent convulsions, and then
lying as dead for some minutes, would recover in less than a
quarter of an hour.” Using several Leyden jars together, he
finally managed to killed a turkey “of about 10 lb. wt. and
suppose they would have killed a much larger. I conceit that
the birds killed in this manner eat uncommonly tender.”18

http://caliber.ucpress.net/doi/pdfplus/10.1525/gfc.2006.6.4.19

"When Franklin was about 16, he met “with a book written by one Tryon, recommending a vegetable diet,” (Franklin, Autobiography) which he promptly stuck to, more or less, for the next three years, and which he returned to for brief spells throughout his life. In addition, he repeats endlessly over the years his recommendation for moderation in eating: “Be temperate in Wine, in eating, Girls, and Sloth, or the Gout will sieze you and plague you both” (Poor Richard’s Almanack, 1734)"

http://www.benfranklin300.com/etc_article_foods.htm