Violence In The USA: What Level of Acceptance?

[Schrodinger's Dog]

She was terrified, she had never even seen a hand gun before. Police in many areas of England apparently still do not carry weapons. She had to miss several days of work after this event. It was only recently that she finally talked about the incident.

Just to be clear no general police officers in England carry firearms, the only police officers that do are attached to specialist units such as anti-terrorism units or firearms units, which deal with firearm related incidents. This is partly because there is only prevalence of gun crime in large cities, particularly Manchester and London, and even then it is small scale. And it's also because most police officers voted not to carry firearms on duty, IIRC about 10% of those who said they did not want to be armed said they would leave the force if they were made to carry firearms. Gun crime over here is so small scale it simply doesn't warrant police officers being armed on a regular basis.

 

[Evo]

I've got to say that when I got my driver's license over 30 years ago, it was common knowledge that you remained seated and had your license and registration ready to hand to the officer. Now, in the US, unless you have no contact with the outside world, you know to not only remain in the car, you know not to make any moves within the car.

The officer was following standard procedure, from what you have written.

I had a police officer point a gun at my head while I was taking a shower inside my house. Turns out my then 2 year old daughter had dialed 911 to test it (they had given instructions to the toddlers at her day care the day before) and when the 911 dispatcher only heard breathing on the phone, a police officer was automatically dispatched to my address. Since I was taking a shower upstairs, I did not hear the officer knock. My door was unlocked so he entered the house and came upstairs to the bathroom when he heard water running.

So, I'm showering and suddenly the bathroom door flies open and I hear shouts of "police officer, police officer', I open the shower door to stare into the barrel of his gun. I was surprised, to say the least, and the officer look startled and just asked if I was ok. Then we pieced the events together and had a good laugh.

He was just following procedure, he had no idea what the situation might be. I found out later that the elderly couple next door were outside when the officer pulled up and he told them to run for cover. I was definitely not upset about it and surely what I went through would probably freak more people out.

I have never lived in an area where you needed to lock your doors, heck, sometimes I'd find my keys on the roof of my car the next day where I laid them when I was unloading groceries. I'd never been around guns or violence, so I am sorry, but she does seem a little overly tragic.

 

[rewebster]

so, evo, the point of the story is: that you leave your door unlocked when you take a shower?

 

[Evo]

so, evo, the point of the story is: that you leave your door unlocked when you take a shower?

Try keeping your house doors locked when you have a couple of children running in and out all day.

 

[rewebster]

well, around here, from what I've heard, 911 calls back, or tries to call back, to find out what's going on-----

I've never had children and I'm not a woman---so I can't answer to that

 

[Evo]

well, around here, from what I've heard, 911 calls back, or tries to call back, to find out what's going on-----

They do call back, which I know due to the second time an officer was dispatched to my house. This time I wasn't doing anything and answered the phone. Upon questioning, my older daughter said that the cat knocked the phone off and must have accidently hit 911 when he walked on it. She said she heard a voice coming from the phone and it scared her, so she hung up the phone without saying anything because she didn't know why a voice would be on the phone if it didn't ring. Truth or a great quickly thought up cover story? Since she was 12 and was engrossed in the computer, I tend to believe it was a freak cat accident.

Anyway, I told the dispatcher nothing was wrong and the dispatcher told me they had already called the police and that the officer would need to come to my house to verify nothing was wrong. I could be a psycho murderer in the house trying to cover up a call my victim had been able to make to 911 for help. Again, they're doing the right thing. A bit annoying, but nice to know they will follow through just incase it's "not ok".

Of course I always lived in a no crime area where police had absolutely nothing to do, so this put some excitement into their life.

 

[rewebster]

They do call back, which I know due to the second time an officer was dispatched to my house. This time I wasn't doing anything and answered the phone. Upon questioning, my older daughter said that the cat knocked the phone off and must have accidently hit 911 when he walked on it. She said she heard a voice coming from the phone and it scared her, so she hung up the phone without saying anything because she didn't know why a voice would be on the phone if it didn't ring. Truth or a great quickly thought up cover story? Since she was 12 and was engrossed in the computer, I tend to believe it was a freak cat accident.

Anyway, I told the dispatcher nothing was wrong and the dispatcher told me they had already called the police and that the officer would need to come to my house to verify nothing was wrong. I could be a psycho murderer in the house trying to cover up a call my victim had been able to make to 911 for help. Again, they're doing the right thing. A bit annoying, but nice to know they will follow through just incase it's "not ok".

yeah---OR----that same officer wanted to see you taking a shower again

 

[Evo]

yeah---OR----that same officer wanted to see you taking a shower again

Different cities, different states.

Actually the second time was a sheriff because it was a rural area and we didn't have police, the first time it was a suburb of Chicago.

 

[TVP45]

. Speaking of exaggerating, are you sure the gun was pointed at her head and not her torso?

Unless the police officer was a raw rookie, he was pointing at the center of her chest for a kill shot. But, when you have a weapon pointed at you, you focus on the muzzle and it looks as big as a 12 gauge even if it's a .22!

I don't know how violent we are, but we are armed. I live in a part of the US where 10% of adults have a carry permit. If you add the unlicensed criminals, a police officer has good reason to worry about a gun during a traffic stop. And, there's no way of going back to the relatively unarmed society of 1950.

 

[rewebster]

well, word gets around---you say that men act in a funny way around you and that you effect men

---and you know some cops are kind of funny---(in the last two years, eight cops around here have been arrested for sexual misconduct to child molestation)

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

yeah---OR----that same officer wanted to see you taking a shower again

That's a tad cynical given the circumstances, I'm sure the phone operator didn't send a cop around because she had been tipped off by Larry McRapist of the force.

If a cop turned up for no reason more than once I could see why you would think that.

well, word gets around---you say that men act in a funny way around you and that you effect men

---and you know some cops are kind of funny---(in the last two years, eight cops around here have been arrested for sexual misconduct to child molestation)

Could be that she is attractive, funnily enough a lot of men act that way around women who are hot, even me, although I've grown out of it to some small extent. I'm not sure how the next paragraph follows though, it sounds like a bit of an oddly cynical view of the police, yeah they're not all great examples of cops they are human, but their not all child molesters and rapists either, because of some isolated nuts. Sounds like an opinion that came straight from the latest issue of scaremonger weekly.

 

[rewebster]

That's a tad cynical given the circumstances, I'm sure the phone operator didn't send a cop around because she had been tipped off by Larry McRapist of the force.

If a cop turned up for no reason more than once I could see why you would think that.



Could be that she is attractive, funnily enough a lot of men act that way around women who are hot, even me, although I've grown out of it to some small extent. I'm not sure how the next paragraph follows though, it sounds like a bit of an oddly cynical view of the police, yeah there not all great examples of cops, but their not all child molestors and rapists either.

why/what?---is evo 'hot'?

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

why/what?---is evo 'hot'?

I don't know, probably? I'm just saying. If it's not her hotness it's her mad staring eyes or something. Sorry I didn't mean to imply a mentor was good looking, my bad.

Now i sound like Larry Mcrapist of the yard.

 

[rewebster]

I don't know, probably? I'm just saying. If it's not her hotness it's her mad staring eyes or something. Sorry I didn't mean to imply a mentor was good looking, my bad.

Now i sound like Larry Mcrapist of the yard.

she's got 'mad staring eyes' ?

 

[edward]

Anyone else find this one funny?
You have admitted that you don't actually know if this is true, so you should stop saying it unless you prove it. The statistics are relatively easy to find. Speaking of exaggerating, are you sure the gun was pointed at her head and not her torso? All the incident proves is that she is naive and ignorant of how things work in the US. She learned a hard lesson.

Nice shot at trying to confuse the issue but no cigar. I am not going to reply to your blather point for point. I have the statistics.

I also have a long time friend whom I grew up with. He spent 22 years as an Indiana State Policeman and 12 years as a County Sheriff. Whenever I was back in Indiana visiting I would always ride along on a shift or two with him. He never one had to draw his weapon in the line of duty.

Today it is very common for an officer to draw his weapon. The situation has changed Russ, you apparently weren't around to see the before, only the after.

I am not too sure who the naive ignorant one is here.

 

[Moonbear]

They do call back, which I know due to the second time an officer was dispatched to my house. This time I wasn't doing anything and answered the phone. Upon questioning, my older daughter said that the cat knocked the phone off and must have accidently hit 911 when he walked on it. She said she heard a voice coming from the phone and it scared her, so she hung up the phone without saying anything because she didn't know why a voice would be on the phone if it didn't ring. Truth or a great quickly thought up cover story? Since she was 12 and was engrossed in the computer, I tend to believe it was a freak cat accident.

Anyway, I told the dispatcher nothing was wrong and the dispatcher told me they had already called the police and that the officer would need to come to my house to verify nothing was wrong. I could be a psycho murderer in the house trying to cover up a call my victim had been able to make to 911 for help. Again, they're doing the right thing. A bit annoying, but nice to know they will follow through just incase it's "not ok".

Of course I always lived in a no crime area where police had absolutely nothing to do, so this put some excitement into their life.

Yeah, that happened with one of my friends too. Her toddler picked up the phone and started pressing buttons...ended up dialing 911. She caught him with the phone in his hand, but too late since he already dialed. They pretty much said the same thing, even though she was explaining what was wrong, someone could be standing there with a gun to her head telling her to say everything was okay, so they had to drive by to check it out anyway.

 

[Evo]

Today it is very common for an officer to draw his weapon.

Today it is pretty much standard procedure to protect the officer.

I am not too sure who the naive ignorant one is here.

Being ignorant of something, maening being unaware, is not the same as calling someone ignorant. Do not insult people.

I realize that some people are more emotionally fragile than others, and your future daughter-in-law seems to be emotionaly fragile. That she couldn't work for several days really is a bit extreme of a response to what happened and it surely doesn't make what the officer did wrong.

She was aware that there was a situation where the police had pulled them over, she knew there was an officer there that had no idea what was going on, common sense dictates that you don't do anything.

 

[Astronuc]

Today it is pretty much standard procedure to protect the officer.

Yes indeed.

I realize that some people are more emotionally fragile than others, and your future daughter-in-law seems to be emotionaly fragile. That she couldn't work for several days really is a bit extreme of a response to what happened and it surely doesn't make what the officer did wrong.

Propably a case of post-traumatic stress syndrome (PTSS/PTSD). Some people take a while to get over, some people never do, and others self-medicate with alcohol and drugs, which leads to health problems later on in life.

She was aware that there was a situation where the police had pulled them over, she knew there was an officer there that had no idea what was going on, common sense dictates that you don't do anything.

Well, none of us were there so, we really don't know what she was thinking. She comes from a different culture in which police normally do not carry guns, especially those on the highway may traffic stops.

I personally knew a number of police officers who were more than happy to beat up someone, and a couple used to tell me about some of things that went on - and were not reported.

As edward indicated, it used to be different 30+ years ago. The fact that cops feeled compelled to pull guns and start yelling would seem to indicate some level of deterioration in society - basically a tacit acceptance of a certain level of violence.

 

[Evo]

She comes from a different culture in which police normally do not carry guns, especially those on the highway may traffic stops.

I didn't grow up in a culture with guns either. I was 14 before I had ever seen a policeman except on tv, so I don't see the significance. A person would have to have lived an unusually sheltered life to never have seen a movie, or tv show, or news, where police and guns were involved.

 

[Astronuc]

I didn't grow up in a culture with guns either. I was 14 before I had ever seen a policeman except on tv, so I don't see the significance. A person would have to have lived an unusually sheltered life to never have seen a movie, or tv show, or news, where police and guns were involved.

Hmm. I grew up not far from you, and I saw plenty cops, and eventually even got to know some. I could tell you some stories.

A kid in my junior high packed a gun (.32 revolver) for pretection. Other kids carried knives or brass knuckles to school. For a while, I carried a switchblade - in school.

Once in a while, I'd get jumped - blindsided - even at school - on the play ground. And that was one of the safer schools.

 

[Evo]

Hmm. I grew up not far from you, and I saw plenty cops, and eventually even got to know some. I could tell you some stories.

A kid in my junior high packed a gun (.32 revolver) for pretection. Other kids carried knives or brass knuckles to school. For a while, I carried a switchblade - in school.

Once in a while, I'd get jumped - blindsided - even at school - on the play ground. And that was one of the safer schools.

The neighborhood I grew up in was closer to Clear Lake and there was no violence, no police, the only minorities I ever met before high school were the maids. Yes, I grew up having maids, all families had maids, so we probably were raised culturally different, yet I didn't freak out when I had a gun pulled on me while I was in the shower, talk about being vulnerable. I also didn't freak out when that guy was killed, he was shot by someone driving by in a car, yes, we were in a bad part of town. I never thought "oh my god, that bullet could have hit me!". It didn't hit me, so nothing to get worked up about.

I also don't think we are more violent, I just think the demographics have changed. Didn't you watch all of those old "cops and robbers' movies based on the prohibition era? There was a lot of violence and crime back then.

 

[rewebster]

Growing up with 'maids' is not a common thing---not 'all the families' had maids in the demographic I grew up in--it's a more 'protected' world than most of us grew up in. I can't relate to without thinking about it for a while what kind of life growing up in that environment may be, except for what I seen on TV, to try to perceive growing up where all or most of the families had 'maids'.

Maybe that may explain some things on the perception of those things that you didn't get 'worked up about' that others would have reacted differently to that you've mentioned, and have talked about.---hmmmm...


There may not be too many posters on the forum (percentage wise) that grew up in a 'depressed' area, as the educated DO usually come from educated families, as to give us a perspective of the really rough side of society--I mean really rough. We may have met them or know them, but the educated do not usually socialize/live with with those with eighth grade levels of education as a personal choice--and education often defines the acceptance level of violence, too.

 

[Gokul43201]

Stats: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

Crime rates have generally been on the decline for over a decade now, and the rate of violent crimes and vehicle thefts is now comparable to what it was in the mid-80s. Responses to changes in crime trends, however, can be expected to involve some lag time. The crime rate since the 60s, to the peak rate in the 90s, more than quadrupled. So, yes, during this period, the violence has increased. I would not be surprised if this increase in violence caused police departments to change their rules of engagement. A continued decline in crime over the coming years may similarly result in some loosening up.

 

[rewebster]

During times of economic distress, crime (including violence) usually increases. I wonder how long before, and if, the present economic situation, and what and if it gets worse, will effect the crime rate.

In the USA at least, prisons have more inmates than they ever have had.

 

[edward]

During times of economic distress, crime (including violence) usually increases. I wonder how long before, and if, the present economic situation, and what and if it gets worse, will effect the crime rate.

In the USA at least, prisons have more inmates than they ever have had.

The first of the inmates who were incarcerated after mandatory sentencing laws were passed in the 90's will soon be up for parole. Lock and load America.

Killadelphia Provides doctors for Iraq.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Story?id=3951568&page=1

 

[edward]

Stats: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

Crime rates have generally been on the decline for over a decade now, and the rate of violent crimes and vehicle thefts is now comparable to what it was in the mid-80s. Responses to changes in crime trends, however, can be expected to involve some lag time. The crime rate since the 60s, to the peak rate in the 90s, more than quadrupled. So, yes, during this period, the violence has increased. I would not be surprised if this increase in violence caused police departments to change their rules of engagement. A continued decline in crime over the coming years may similarly result in some loosening up.

My OP referred to my belief in the apparent desensitization of Americans to violence. We have had a lot of posts on the crime rate and how it has fallen, but this in no way address the question. Have we become desensitized to violence? I say yes.

I used the story of an actual event to demonstrate the desensitization and it became a football for avoiding the original premise.

I see many posts that support the pointing of a policeman's weapon at a young woman during a routine traffic stop as being a necessity in todays society. It was vigorously defined by some as being normal.

The shocked young woman from England was criticized as being naive and ignorant. Is she really? Or is she just not yet desensitized to the American way of life?

My point is this proves my point about our being desensitized to violence.

 

[Poop-Loops]

My OP referred to my belief in the apparent desensitization of Americans to violence. We have had a lot of posts on the crime rate and how it has fallen, but this in no way address the question. Have we become desensitized to violence? I say yes.

I'm sorry, did you completely skip over my post? You know, the one right under your original one?

The one that made it clear that violence has been going down with time? And with more violence in the past, don't you think people were more desensitized? You know, when half of your siblings wouldn't make it to age 1? Where you had to go out and kill your own pig for dinner?

Go read the Bible and tell me we are more desensitized now. Go read what happened to people during wars before things like the Geneva convention or even before people could "cleanly" get killed with guns.

You are ignorant of history if you are claiming that a movies and music can desensitize a population to violence and then go ahead and use 2 examples, one of kids who are "special needs", so they are either mentally retarded (not it) or already misbehaving to the point of having to be in a separate class room. And your second example had no violence and was just an honest mistake on the part of your friend. I'm willing to bet the cop was at least half as afraid as your friend was, simply because he might have to shoot somebody. No, cops aren't trained killers, the cop didn't want to shoot either.

 

[Gokul43201]

I'm sorry, did you completely skip over my post? You know, the one right under your original one?

The one that made it clear that violence has been going down with time? And with more violence in the past, don't you think people were more desensitized? You know, when half of your siblings wouldn't make it to age 1? Where you had to go out and kill your own pig for dinner?

Go read the Bible and tell me we are more desensitized now.

I don't think Ed is making the claim that we're more desensitized now compared to 2 millennia ago. I believe he's talking about a timescale of about the last 30-40 years.

 

[edward]

I don't think Ed is making the claim that we're more desensitized now compared to 2 millennia ago. I believe he's talking about a timescale of about the last 30-40 years.

You got that right.

 

[Astronuc]

The neighborhood I grew up in was closer to Clear Lake and there was no violence, no police, the only minorities I ever met before high school were the maids. Yes, I grew up having maids, all families had maids, so we probably were raised culturally different, yet I didn't freak out when I had a gun pulled on me while I was in the shower, talk about being vulnerable. I also didn't freak out when that guy was killed, he was shot by someone driving by in a car, yes, we were in a bad part of town. I never thought "oh my god, that bullet could have hit me!". It didn't hit me, so nothing to get worked up about.

You're exceptional.

I lived not to far from River Oaks, so I knew families who had maids, and some families on our street had part-time maids. My younger sister-in-law's family has maids, and I think she still has a part-time maid, and in fact my sister has a part-time maid.

My elementary, junior high and high schools were racially mixed with a proportion of black and hispanic students at about the same level as the city. I had a number of black and hispanic friends. The guys I had to look out for were the older kids who'd been held back once or twice.

After my earlier post, I recalled that one of the toughest kids in school tried to take me down during a football game. I was playing center, and at one point before I tossed the ball back to the QB, this kid came down hard with his elbow on my back. I just about blacked out and almost buckled, but I didn't go down, but rather stood up. I guess that surprised him, so he paused. A couple of other tough guys, who more friendly toward me, told him off because they thought it was uncool to jump me like he did. After that, he left me alone, and later that year, he was actually more friendly.

I also don't think we are more violent, I just think the demographics have changed. Didn't you watch all of those old "cops and robbers" movies based on the prohibition era? There was a lot of violence and crime back then.

One means movies with Cagney, Bogart, Edward G. Robinson? Yeah - I've seen them. Let's not forget the civil rights era.

Perhaps the perception of violence increasing or decreasing is based upon experience. I also know some crime is not reported - particularly domestic violence.