Virial Theorem and Equipartition Theorem

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Derivator
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Theorem Virial theorem
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the virial theorem and the equipartition theorem, specifically focusing on the mathematical expression relating the mean value of forces and pressure in a thermodynamic context. Participants explore the derivation and implications of a specific formula from a thermodynamics text.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the connection between the mean value of forces and the integral of surface forces as presented in a textbook formula.
  • Another participant suggests that internal forces cancel out, leaving only the external forces from the wall, which leads to the reformulation of the sum as an integral.
  • A request for a more detailed explanation of the averaging process is made, seeking clarity on how the integral approximates the average of the sum.
  • One participant acknowledges a previous error regarding the cancellation of internal forces, clarifying that for an ideal gas, only contact forces during collisions cancel out, and the external forces are the primary contributors to the sum.
  • The same participant provides a derivation that emphasizes the contribution of molecules near a specific patch of the wall, leading to the conclusion that the average force on the surface can be expressed as -pdS.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the cancellation of internal forces and the validity of the averaging process. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the precise nature of these forces and their contributions to the overall expression.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the assumptions made about the forces involved, particularly regarding the ideal gas scenario and the nature of internal versus external forces. The mathematical steps in the derivation are not fully resolved, leaving some ambiguity in the discussion.

Derivator
Messages
147
Reaction score
0
Hi folks,

in this book (correct page should open, if not: p.199): http://books.google.com/books?id=12...r thermodynamics&pg=PA199#v=onepage&q&f=false

it says (formula (7.168)):

[tex]<\sum_i \vec{r}_i \vec{F}_i > = -p \oint{\vec{r} d\vec{S}}[/tex]

It is explained, why dF=-p dS, but I don't see the connection between the mean value of the sum on the left hand side and the ring integral on the right hand side.


derivator
 
Science news on Phys.org
The trick is that in the sum on the left-hand side, you take all the forces, internal and external(due to the wall). It turns out that the internal forces cancel out and you are left with the forces due to that wall. Now averaging can be performed on the surface of the wall, which allow you to reformulate the sum as an integral of the surface forces -pdS.
 
Jano L. said:
Now averaging can be performed on the surface of the wall, which allow you to reformulate the sum as an integral of the surface forces -pdS.

Hi,

could you please explain a litle bit more detailed, how this averaging is done? That is, why is the given integral an approximation to the left ahnd side average of the sum?

best,
derivator
 
Because the pressure p is an approximate expression for the molecular forces the wall exerts on molecules. I think writing the averaging procedure formally is not so easy, but it is obvious that the result is the integral given above. Try to write it and let us know!
 
Hi Derivator,
I've just came across the virial theorem and realized that what I wrote earlier is not correct. In fact, the internal forces do not cancel out generally. For the ideal gas, however, there are only contact forces during the collisions, so they cancel out. The only contribution to the sum is due to external forces. Here is the derivation:
The sum has nonzero contributions only from the molecules being repulsed by the wall in the instant considered (only these molecules feel external force of the wall). We choose some small patch of area dS and calculate the contribution by the molecules near this patch. The average force on the surface dS is

-pd\mathbf S,

so the contribution is

\sum_i \mathbf r_i \mathbf F_i (i near \Delta S) \approx - \mathbf r p \Delta S


here \mathbf r is the radius vector of the patch. Finally we sum the contributions from all possible patches sovering the surface enclosing the gas:

\sum_i \mathbf r_i \mathbf F_i (whole surface) \approx -\oint p d\mathbf S

Sorry for text formulae, but tex wouldn't work properly.

Jano
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 333 ·
12
Replies
333
Views
20K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
5K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
4K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
3K