Wanted: Brainstorming Partner for Permanent Global Blackout

[Caitriona]

Hello,

I hope this kind of plea is allowed here, if not, please just let me know. I'm new here :-)

I have this story idea that seems to be taking up permanent residence in my head and it will be set around 200 years in the future...and here comes the catch: I need that future to be without electricity. I'm not a physicist and my research so far only led me to doomsday-preppers who believe a global blackout might happen at some point but most certainly wouldn't be permanent. Well, I need it to be permanent.

I'm not set on a specific scenario or any kind of scenario really, because that is not going to be the point of the story. I'm open to all suggestions as long as they are credible and easily understood by a wide audience. I know, I'm asking for a lot. Also the blackout has already happened at least 150 years ago from when my story is set, so I don't really need to go into the details of several stages and technicalities (if there are any), because what happened will be told by one of the characters who is not going to be a scientist.
What I need is a believable explanation that won't tempt people to throw books across the room with an audible "What the ****?!"
And no, I did not like the "Nanites"-explanation for the blackout on the TV show Revolution, I would prefer something not man-made, because then it would be reversible.

I would also like to do some brainstorming what parts of every day life would be affected in the long run.

Looking forward to your replies! :-)

 

[Kilo Vectors]

hello! As I understand it (and my knowledge is limited), electricity is just one of those properties that cannot be "Stopped"..ie, its flow of electrons, electrons make up matter, determine chemical reactions..so for me, something like a massive EMP type event (perhaps some space cataclysm brings this about, meteor etc) that disables all electronics and continues to do so would make more sense..I don't know how to phrase it better. It is much more likely that consumer electronics, and power grids fail, but one would always be able to generate electricity. We could see some type of global destruction of technology and scientific knowledge coupled with this cataclysm as leading us backwards to a darker age..IMO

The premise of revolution (one of the worst shows IMO) was pretty ridiculous, but then again, this whole idea of electricity as a property ceasing to exist is very difficult to pull off! but I just felt like I had to give my 0.002. good luck.

RE: parts of everyday life, well since all machines, factories, everything runs on electronics thered be the dark ages I guess

 

[Vanadium 50]

Considering that part of your nervous system is electrical, this seems like a bad idea, story-wise.

 

[Hornbein]

Considering that part of your nervous system is electrical, this seems like a bad idea, story-wise.

It's sort of electrical, but more chemical, I think. Nerves aren't at all like a metal wire.

If you were really going to shut down all electricity then atoms couldn't exist. The Earth would melt into black hole or explode or something.

 

[Caitriona]

I knew it wouldn't be easy, everyone can do easy

I'm not really thinking about disabling all electricity, I want there to be thunderstorms for example and I of course want life on Earth to be able to go on, otherwise there would be no point in writing about it.

I guess what I need is a scenario where people can no longer use electricity...I want life to be as it was back in the 18/19th century (plus the added knowledge of industrialisation, but no means to use it any longer), and I realize that it would be a whole lot easier to just set my story in the past. But for the sake of the dramatical arch, that is not really feasible.

 

[Loren]

Considering that part of your nervous system is electrical, this seems like a bad idea, story-wise.

Not so if its a short story. Ah, no pun intended.

 

[Loren]

It's sort of electrical, but more chemical, I think. Nerves aren't at all like a metal wire.

If you were really going to shut down all electricity then atoms couldn't exist. The Earth would melt into black hole or explode or something.

Oh, yes. How do you think your heart beats?

 

[Loren]

I knew it wouldn't be easy, everyone can do easy

I'm not really thinking about disabling all electricity, I want there to be thunderstorms for example and I of course want life on Earth to be able to go on, otherwise there would be no point in writing about it.

I guess what I need is a scenario where people can no longer use electricity...I want life to be as it was back in the 18/19th century (plus the added knowledge of industrialisation, but no means to use it any longer), and I realize that it would be a whole lot easier to just set my story in the past. But for the sake of the dramatical arch, that is not really feasible.

Honestly, I can't see a realistic way to do that, but I am reading a book by Alastair Reynolds called Terminal World where Earth far in the future has been reduced to primitive technology because of something called zones and zone shifts that seem to disturb the fabric of space just enough to render machinery non-functional.

Some zones are more forgiving than other and there are areas where electricity works, but others where only mechanical systems work, and still others where not even biology function.

I'm not far enough into the book where the explanation is brought forward, but I suspect there will not be a very grounded one. The reader just needs to accept it.

Now, along Reynold's lines I do have an idea and perhaps someone could elaborate on.

What if the Earth and its region of space fell victim to a false vacuum? However, I would propose that the shift in the energy state from where we are to a lower vacuum energy state be subtle enough that it doesn't wipe out biology, but does change the rules of physics enough to make the use of electricity or electronics difficult or impossible due to some technical Catch-22?

Just a thought.

 

[Caitriona]

What if the Earth and its region of space fell victim to a false vacuum? However, I would propose that the shift in the energy state from where we are to a lower vacuum energy state be subtle enough that it doesn't wipe out biology, but does change the rules of physics enough to make the use of electricity or electronics difficult or impossible due to some technical Catch-22?

Just a thought.

I have no idea how that would work *lol* I'm a biologist, but physics have never been my strong suit. A vacuum is the absence of all matter, I'm guessing a false vacuum is not...

I guess what it comes down to is - what environmental parameters make the usage of electricity possible? Is it air-pressure or humidity (I know that can have an influence) or magnetism (would a polar shift be a game changer?) or anything else I'm not thinking off of the top of my head. And can I feasibly change one of these parameters to make it impossible to use electricity with our present day technical knowledge?
I know, people might eventually come up with a new solution or new technology to circumvent every stone I might throw in their way, but that's a problem I can write around with storytelling.

 

[Hornbein]

Oh, yes. How do you think your heart beats?

It has to do with electrical potentials across cell walls and sodium and potassium ions pumps in those membranes.

 

[DHF]

It is fairly implausible that any natural phenomenon would disrupt only certain types of electricity. As others have said, you can't just put a blanket that stops all electricity because that would have disastrous effects not only on life but the world around us. In order to make this work you will need some pretty strong handhavium, The best solution I can come up with is Aliens. Say a probe or ship crashed 150 years ago and some mechanism on the ship is emitting a dampening field that is shorting out man made electricity. In order to make it non reversible, have the ship crash in the ocean. without access to any form of advanced technology, it would be fairly impossible to reach the ship.

 

[Caitriona]

The best solution I can come up with is Aliens. Say a probe or ship crashed 150 years ago and some mechanism on the ship is emitting a dampening field that is shorting out man made electricity. In order to make it non reversible, have the ship crash in the ocean. without access to any form of advanced technology, it would be fairly impossible to reach the ship.

I'd rather not venture into Alien territory...would it be plausible that a similar effect might be created by a meteor?
Then again...how would people even know what happened if that thing fell into the ocean where nobody could see. I mean, all data collected by satellites etc. that could possibly explain the source of the problem would be inaccessible, right?
Hmm, sounds like an easy way out of the dilema - people just don't know what happened *lol*

 

[DHF]

The meteor is again iffy because you are talking about a naturally generated field, some property of the meteor that is very selective in the types of electricity it interferes with. But you are absolutely spot on in that information about this object would be sketchy at best, if all communications went out the moment it hit the atmosphere then 150 years later all we have are tales passed down orally. There could be plenty of speculation on what it was, some think its a meteor, some think it was a secret government satellite weapon that malfunctioned and some think its aliens. In the end it doesn't matter how implausible any given solution is because it is not you the author providing the solution as fact, it is your characters providing their own personal opinion on what they think it is, it doesn't matter if they are wrong :)

 

[Caitriona]

But you are absolutely spot on in that information about this object would be sketchy at best, if all communications went out the moment it hit the atmosphere then 150 years later all we have are tales passed down orally. There could be plenty of speculation on what it was, some think its a meteor, some think it was a secret government satellite weapon that malfunctioned and some think its aliens. In the end it doesn't matter how implausible any given solution is because it is not you the author providing the solution as fact, it is your characters providing their own personal opinion on what they think it is, it doesn't matter if they are wrong :)

That is actually brilliant, especially since the reason why is really not the point of the story...why didn't I think of that myself? *lol*

So I guess I'm left with the second part of the question...how disruptive would it actually be? I mean, these people didn't just forget about indoor plumbing and automobile traffic. No electricity would mean no mineral oil, but steam engines would work, or would they be simply too complicated to construct?

 

[DHF]

Well there is still plenty that can be done with gas driven power. Steam engines even simple internal combustion engines so you do have a society capable of industrialization but without access to electrical power you are bottle-necking them at about 19th century tech more or less. What you do have to consider is the social ramifications of this event. When catastrophe happened, there would have been global chaos and what you are looking at is pretty much a post apocalyptic recovery, This gives you the freedom to shape civilization any way you think it might have reformed after such a disaster.

 

[Caitriona]

This gives you the freedom to shape civilization any way you think it might have reformed after such a disaster.

Sooo much freedom it's a little mind-boggling after I've been trying to find a way around the whole electricity problem for a while now.
Thank you very much, you have been a great help.

 

[Loren]

I have no idea how that would work *lol* I'm a biologist, but physics have never been my strong suit. A vacuum is the absence of all matter, I'm guessing a false vacuum is not...

I guess what it comes down to is - what environmental parameters make the usage of electricity possible? Is it air-pressure or humidity (I know that can have an influence) or magnetism (would a polar shift be a game changer?) or anything else I'm not thinking off of the top of my head. And can I feasibly change one of these parameters to make it impossible to use electricity with our present day technical knowledge?
I know, people might eventually come up with a new solution or new technology to circumvent every stone I might throw in their way, but that's a problem I can write around with storytelling.

We are talking about a fundamental principle of the laws of physics here. Electricity is either a potential difference of electrons or the movement of those electrons across apotential and it is closely related to magnetism, but electricity works in the absence of air, humidity, magnetic fields, you name it.

A false vacuum (read the link I provided in that post) is a change in the energy ground state of the universe. Being a biologist you will have had courses in chemistry, which start out with atomic theory. Think of a electrons in their ground state. They exist in the lowest energy state possible, but if it turned out it were not actually the lowest possible state the electron could be in and some mechanism kicked the electron into that new lower state it would upset the properties of that atom.

For a false vacuum to achieve a lower ground state you must have some form of event that kicks or excites the ground state into a much higher energy state first to climb up that mountain, then roll down to a lower potential.

Now, my atomic example is not actually representative of what happens with a false vacuum. It's more like an analogy. Instead of changing the properties of an atom, a false vacuum changes the properties of the universe by dinking with some of the universe's fundamental constants in physics. It wouldn't take much of a change in anyone of those constants to have catastrophic effects on how the universe functions.

For your story I am thinking that maybe this idea might be the backstory for why your world does not follow the rules like it used to. Bear in mind, any false vacuum change will expand at the speed of light (or nearly so) and not stop until the universe is consumed. Chances are we would not see it coming. Even if we did we would not be able to do a thing about. Sorry about our luck.

 

[Loren]

It has to do with electrical potentials across cell walls and sodium and potassium ions pumps in those membranes.

Very true. Is not electricity fundamentally a potential difference of electrons?

 

[Jobrag]

The only scenario that takes us back to a pre-electrical age, that I can think of, is one where the human population has dropped below a level that can support an industrial society.

 

[CrackerMcGinger]

The most likely and believable way that a global blackout can be nearly permanent is if the sun generated a solar flare that is big enough to fry all electronics but small enough not to engulf the planet. Another is a man made global blackout, however the idea the every country would launch their nukes and detonate them at a near space altitude seems unlikely, but a similar event would happen, a complete blackout. The solar flare idea would be a more likely idea since solar activity has been known to disrupt electronics on Earth. You would still have lightning and thunder of course, but it would take years, perhaps even decades or centuries, to restore the technology that we lost.

 

[DHF]

In regard to Jobrag's statement: I don't think that would be the case. it is clearly possible to have an industrial society without electricity. We did it for quite some time before we learned how to harness electrical power in the late 19th century.

 

[CrackerMcGinger]

In regard to Jobrag's statement: I don't think that would be the case. it is clearly possible to have an industrial society without electricity. We did it for quite some time before we learned how to harness electrical power in the late 19th century.

Yes, but that was with gas and steam. We wouldn't have fusion of fission plant, and their is also a possibility that the plants after the flare could go into a meltdown, causing major damage to surrounding areas. The flare could also cause an increase in electrical storms, which could be particularly deadly in areas that already have extreme lightning storms such as the Tampa area in Florida and the African country Rwanda. But in today's society, I think the most devastating effect would be panic. I think it would take a long time before the many of the worlds population could even begin an organized rebuilding of society.

 

[DHF]

Agreed that we would not have an advanced technological society without electricity but that is different then saying we would go back to pre industrial. We started to become an industrial society back in the 1700s. In the world we are looking at here, we would be reduced to steam and gas power but we would have the advantage of modern engineering and experience so we might see a society that has utilized motor driven devices to a greater extent then in the past.

I do agree that civilization would be in shambles after the initial blackout. chaos would rain for years as world economies and communications collapsed. Eventually things would calm down and we would move forward. The loss of advanced communications would be a huge hindrance but we would adapt, and on the bright side, we wouldn't have to worry about spam mail or Nigerian princess scams any more.

 

[Hornbein]

It has to do with electrical potentials across cell walls and sodium and potassium ions pumps in those membranes.

Very true. Is not electricity fundamentally a potential difference of electrons?

If you don't have electrical potential then you don't have atoms. If you don't have atoms, you aren't going to have much to work with in the novel.

 

[CrackerMcGinger]

Nigerian princess scams any more.

Wait, that was a thing?

 

[DHF]

Wait, that was a thing?

I have received many variations over the years, lately though the spam that is most popular if you own a small business is:
Scammer: we have need of your services, we want (whatever service you sell) do you accept credit cards?
(if you respond to them)
Scammer: how much do you want for said services?
(name any ridiculous amount, I asked for $50,000 with 50% non refundable up front)
Scammer: yes that is acceptable, but I need your help, my event planer/contractor/other third party does not accept credit cards, I will send you your full amount plus a tip if you would send a money gram for $1500 to my contractor/event planer.

 

[CrackerMcGinger]

but, what does that have to do with nigerian princesses?

 

[DHF]

The typical Nigerian Princess scam was:

My name is so and so, I am a princess in Nigeria, my father just passed away and my horrible uncles want to take all the inheritance, I need your help. I want to send you 14 million dollars so I can hide it from my family. All I need is your account number and other sensitive information.

All other scams are just plays on that original theme.

 

[CrackerMcGinger]

The typical Nigerian Princess scam was:

My name is so and so, I am a princess in Nigeria, my father just passed away and my horrible uncles want to take all the inheritance, I need your help. I want to send you 14 million dollars so I can hide it from my family. All I need is your account number and other sensitive information.

All other scams are just plays on that original theme.

People actually fell for that?

 

[DHF]

It seems ridiculous but it happens so frequently and so wide spread that probability dictates they must get at least some desperate people. If it didn't work on anyone it would have dried up at some point but scams like this have been going on for over 20 years.

 

[CrackerMcGinger]

Wow. That's sad.

 

[CrackerMcGinger]

But is it also possible that the flare could cause a small ice age?

 

[DHF]

Well ultimatly I don't know if he will go with a flare because he did mention that he wanted the effect to be perment. The effects of a flare would be brief.
A flare is a good device for any number of other things in a book. Flares at low levels can temporarily disrupt communications but sufficiently powerful flares can disrupt the atmosphere itself. Any such flare would also slam a tremendous amount of radiation into the planet and we would probably be looking at mass extinctions so its a good plot device if you want a real post world feeling.

As to causing an ice age, I am not a planetary scientist so I don't know for sure but I imagine if the atmosphere was significantly disturbed, its possible.

 

[CrackerMcGinger]

Well ultimatly I don't know if he will go with a flare because he did mention that he wanted the effect to be perment. The effects of a flare would be brief.
A flare is a good device for any number of other things in a book. Flares at low levels can temporarily disrupt communications but sufficiently powerful flares can disrupt the atmosphere itself. Any such flare would also slam a tremendous amount of radiation into the planet and we would probably be looking at mass extinctions so its a good plot device if you want a real post world feeling.

As to causing an ice age, I am not a planetary scientist so I don't know for sure but I imagine if the atmosphere was significantly disturbed, its possible.

the shortest ice age lasted around 150 years, so the flare idea is possible, and an extremily powerful flare thatr misses the planet could still be powerfull enough to cause a severe world wide emp.

 

[DHF]

well if the flare is that powerful, its not just the EMP that is hitting us, tons of lethal radiation would as well. the physical pop of flame that you typically see images of would never come anywhere near our orbit but the burst of radiation would spread out in a fairly wide path. If it was powerful enough to cause the effects we are talking about, the ice age would salt on the wound because that would be on top a devastating blow not only to human population but life across the entire biosphere.

I think however that this is quite different then what the Original poster was looking for.

 

[CrackerMcGinger]

well if the flare is that powerful, its not just the EMP that is hitting us, tons of lethal radiation would as well. the physical pop of flame that you typically see images of would never come anywhere near our orbit but the burst of radiation would spread out in a fairly wide path. If it was powerful enough to cause the effects we are talking about, the ice age would salt on the wound because that would be on top a devastating blow not only to human population but life across the entire biosphere.

I think however that this is quite different then what the Original poster was looking for.

but 150 years later most of the planet not directly hit by the radiation would be almost okay(as in habitable) right?

 

[DHF]

It is hard to predict but I think life would look very different. For starters, this is unlikely to happen with our own star Sol is pretty stable but what we are talking about is possible from another star, if say a supernova happened in a nearby star system or if we were hit by a gama ray burst from a nearby black hole. again the likelihood of any of these events is slim because there are no super massive stars likely to go nova that are that close to us nor are they any GRB within striking distance.

IF such a thing did hit us, it would effect whatever side of the planet was facing the burst so you are talking millions of casualties, maybe billions as well as mass extinctions of animal, insect and sea life. Bacteria would also be effected. while the burst might not directly effect life on the opposite side of the planet, the ramifications would be massive as our atmosphere and ecosystem would be crippled. Life might survive, be habitable as you ask but it is not a world I would want to live in, even if there was no ice age following it. A burst like that and you are really talking about taking a blowtorch to the atmosphere so I would worry less about nuclear winters and more about hoping we can breath the air when its all over.

 

[Caitriona]

... the ice age would salt on the wound because that would be on top a devastating blow not only to human population but life across the entire biosphere.

I think however that this is quite different then what the Original poster was looking for.

Yes, you are correct, I definitely need the planet to be habitable and - aside from a little global warming and slight evolutionary changes and maybe an extinct species or two - quite the same as we know it today.
I do think that the world population would be greatly reduced by a lack of electricity (starvation resulting from less effective food production being the main problem, but of course chaos and confusion right after the blackout would cost a few lives too as well as exposure, war etc.) So yes, I will not be dealing with a 7 billion population, but maybe 1 billion people and there will be next to no global information network (though we're maybe not quite back to using carrier pigeons).

I love all the different suggestions because that will give me the opportunity to let different characters have different opinions as to what happened.

As a side note I was quite surprised to learn that there are still actually people out there using the internet who haven't been at the receiving end of a nigeria spam attempt. That thing has been around for at least 15 years, I got my first one back when I was still in school

 

[DHF]

I think I got my first Nigerian Princess Scam in 99 maybe, maybe 97. It amazes me that they are still around in one form or another.

As to the story, I can see famine and conflict taking out a lot of people in the early days, As we pointed out earlier, no one will really know what happened and I am sure nations will be quick to blame each other. Without advanced infrastructure though I think famine will claim more then murder. Eventually things will settle and humanity will adapt, we are good at that. As for global communication, I think its possible as the postal services will thrive in the absence of phones and email. even back in the 19th century you could communicate between countries, the only difference is that those communications will take weeks or months. Communications within countries will be relatively easy if you are giving the character motor transport. Mind you most cars today will need to be scrapped or severely refitted as they are glutted with electronics and will not run without power.

 

[Caitriona]

As for global communication, I think its possible as the postal services will thrive in the absence of phones and email. even back in the 19th century you could communicate between countries, the only difference is that those communications will take weeks or months. Communications within countries will be relatively easy if you are giving the character motor transport. Mind you most cars today will need to be scrapped or severely refitted as they are glutted with electronics and will not run without power.

Yep, there will be postal service, but like you said, it will take days, weeks and months for mail to be delivered, depending on the distance it's sent. I'm also thinking engines will be used by rich people and some parts of the industry and maybe the government, so yes, mail can be transported by train or steam boat or even by trucks (though I think that might not be very cost effective), but the average person may not really have a car, as it would be quite expensive to build and maintain, right? Obtaining fuel alone would be a costly endeavour. Horses and carriages would be far more convenient and cost effective for "normal people".

 

[Loren]

Yep, there will be postal service, but like you said, it will take days, weeks and months for mail to be delivered, depending on the distance it's sent. I'm also thinking engines will be used by rich people and some parts of the industry and maybe the government, so yes, mail can be transported by train or steam boat or even by trucks (though I think that might not be very cost effective), but the average person may not really have a car, as it would be quite expensive to build and maintain, right? Obtaining fuel alone would be a costly endeavour. Horses and carriages would be far more convenient and cost effective for "normal people".

That could be an improvement for some mail in the US.

 

[Caitriona]

That could be an improvement for some mail in the US.

*lol* but since this story is not set in the US, let's just assume postal service would be slightly for the worse compared to today

 

[Loren]

*lol* but since this story is not set in the US, let's just assume postal service would be slightly for the worse compared to today

Lucky bast@&^!

 

[DHF]

where is the story taking place?

 

[Caitriona]

great britain

 

[DHF]

Nice. Used to live there, about 20 years ago.

 

[CrackerMcGinger]

Well, you could always go with a classic idea, the end of world world 3 destroyng civilization, but having enough people surviving to rebuild after decades. Not that original, but it still has some true facts.

 

[DrStupid]

I'm not a physicist and my research so far only led me to doomsday-preppers who believe a global blackout might happen at some point but most certainly wouldn't be permanent. Well, I need it to be permanent.

How about a series of global Carrington events caused by heavy solar storms after Sun suddenly changed it's activity? The first event would destroy the current technical civilization and the fall-out from hundreds of bursting and burning nuclear power plants and reprocessing facilities would turn a significant part of the industrial infrastructure into forbidden areas. Even if mankind manage to stop the following wars, hunger crisis and the possible free fall into stone age it would be hard work reestablish a new technical civilization. If the new start suffers another setback from additional solar storms the engineers would need to look for ways to avoid this problem. One solution would be EMP protection but another - more radical - option would be avoiding electricity at all. The last could be supported by political or pseudo-religious forces who believe that using electricity was the root of all evil.

 

[Caitriona]

Carrington events...will have to google that

 

[Loren]

There's another solution.

If a religious cult were to gain enough power, particularly if preceded by a man-made or natural disaster, they could hold society in check at some primitive level.

Even Dune had its Butlerian Jihad.

Revelation Space had its Inhibitors. Something similar might pound a society back to pre-technology days (for whatever reason) and every time they gained technology back that society would just get beat down again. Over time such a society might give up trying to advance—at least for long periods of time.