News Was Obama's Bow to King of Saudi Arabia Appropriate?

[Alfi]

Simple question that I don't find a definitive answer to.

Is/was the bow correct protocol.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/1518581,w-obama-saudi-king-bow040809.article

 

[cristo]

I wouldn't have thought it was "correct protocol" (whatever that really means). That said, he's the president, so is allowed to greet royalty however he likes.

 

[Dadface]

Surely it is common practise for visitors to be advised on matters of protocol before any meeting.

 

[Evo]

Actually, the custom is to kiss the king on his shoulder. Bush kissed the king and would hold hands with him. Holding hands with men as you talk to them is a sign of friendship and trust there. I guess Obama figured a bow would raise less criticism that kissing and holding hands, but never underestimate the hate mongers.

 

[rootX]

International business behavior, introductions, gift giving, protocol, culture There are several styles of greetings used; it is best to wait for your counterpart to initiate the greeting. Men shake hands with other men. Some men will shake hands with a woman; it is advisable for a businesswoman to wait for a man to offer his hand. A more traditional greeting between men involves grasping each other’s right hand, placing the left hand on the other’s right shoulder and exchanging kisses on each cheek.

International business behavior, introductions, gift giving, protocol, culture Men walking hand in hand is a sign a friendship.

http://www.cyborlink.com/besite/saudi-arabia.htm

But, it doesn't say anything about bow to others.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

He didn't bow for crying out loud! He was greeting his shoes.

 

[waht]

perhaps he extended his hand too soon and couldn't catch up to the king, hence the sudden blip in posture.

 

[BobG]

The shoulder kissing custom was eliminated by the current Saudi King. The current custom is a simple hand shake.

The whole incident was misinterpreted in any event. The President, like any self-respecting Chicago resident, is a huge Bears fan. Acquiring Jay Cutler brings back memories of the last time the Bears had even a respectable quarterback, let alone a star quarterback. Those that remember Jim McMahon probably also remember McMahon's TD celebrations where he headbutted his team mates. Definitely cooler than a wimpy fist-bump!

Under the circumstances, it's certainly understandable that Obama would become a little over exuberant in his greetings. It's just sad that the Saudi Arabian king didn't return the gesture. He's clearly ignorant of American football history.

 

[Evo]

The shoulder kissing custom was eliminated by the current Saudi King. The current custom is a simple hand shake.

The whole incident was misinterpreted in any event. The President, like any self-respecting Chicago resident, is a huge Bears fan. Acquiring Jay Cutler brings back memories of the last time the Bears had even a respectable quarterback, let alone a star quarterback. Those that remember Jim McMahon probably also remember McMahon's TD celebrations where he headbutted his team mates. Definitely cooler than a wimpy fist-bump!

Under the circumstances, it's certainly understandable that Obama would become a little over exuberant in his greetings. It's just sad that the Saudi Arabian king didn't return the gesture. He's clearly ignorant of American football history.

 

[Astronuc]

Maybe Obama meant to low-5 him. I don't think Abdullah could do a high-5 with Obama given Obama's stature and the king's mass. :biggin:

I thought Obama was more of a basketball fan than football.

Under the circumstances, it's certainly understandable that Obama would become a little over exuberant in his greetings. It's just sad that the Saudi Arabian king didn't return the gesture. He's clearly ignorant of American football history.

To be safe next time, should we send Abdullah a book on the history of Chicago sports greetings?

 

[Alfi]

Thanks Evo
I thought that the kiss was the accepted greeting but I don't get to party with royals very often so I wasn't sure. The other side story about breaking protocol is the touching of the Queen On England.

Michelle Obama's meeting with Queen Elizabeth II began with a handshake and ended in a hug.
http://www.foxtoledo.com/dpp/news/national/nat_ap_london_michelle_obama_charms_queen_2009040210552292723 President Obama campaigned on a platform of change. So far I'd say he's sticking to his promises.

 

[binzing]

God you should here some of the rednecks/super conservative idiots in my area.

It's a greeting, I would think it's perfectly normal. What would they expect him to do if he were to go to Japan?

 

[drankin]

God you should here some of the rednecks/super conservative idiots in my area.

It's a greeting, I would think it's perfectly normal. What would they expect him to do if he were to go to Japan?

That's just it. No President in the history of our nation has ever bowed to a foriegn leader. Protocol is, out of respect for the office of US President, you don't bow to anyone. It's seen as disrespect towards our American concept of equality among people and the struggle our nation has gone through to be what we have been for a few hundred years. People had to bow to kings, queens, anyone in power. We got away from that and now were back. I don't care if he starts bowing to his new dog, whatever that ended up being. He doesn't seem to care about the traditions of the office of the American Presidency in this respect.

 

[chroot]

People had to bow to kings, queens, anyone in power. We got away from that and now were back.

Yes, yes, before this whole Obama-bowing fiasco, us Americans have never had to submit to anyone, right? Tax collectors, land lords, teachers, bosses, they've never had any power over us free, independent Americans, right?

- Warren

 

[Evo]

That's just it. No President in the history of our nation has ever bowed to a foriegn leader.

Post the link to the research that proves this.

Protocol is, out of respect for the office of US President, you don't bow to anyone.

Post the link that proves this.

It's seen as disrespect towards our American concept of equality among people and the struggle our nation has gone through to be what we have been for a few hundred years. People had to bow to kings, queens, anyone in power. We got away from that and now were back. I don't care if he starts bowing to his new dog, whatever that ended up being. He doesn't seem to care about the traditions of the office of the American Presidency in this respect.

This is your opinion, not fact.

 

[binzing]

Post the link to the research that proves this.

Post the link that proves this.

This is your opinion, not fact.

Thank you Evo.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

My guess is that it was unintentional misstep on Obama's part. Either his advisors failed to review the customary protocols, or Obama just screwed up because he was tired from the long trip. At most it was a gesture that has been taken out of context. Anyone reading more into this should probably go live somewhere where things like this matter.

At least he didn't puke at the dinner table and pass out.

A bow doesn't change the US Constitution or US foreign policy.

 

[mgb_phys]

I assumed it was because Obama is one of the lizard people from V - he saw a pet hamster behind the king.

 

[drankin]

Post the link to the research that proves this.

Post the link that proves this.

This is your opinion, not fact.

It would be easier to post a link that shows that a President actually bowed to a foreign leader. But there is no link. Because it has never happened. I'm not a history buff so I do not have any research to support this fact. I would think that by now, someone would be able to post something, somewhere, that google would pick up that would show that President(s) in the past has/have done this.

Yes, it's my opinion. It's also my opinion that past Presidents observed my opinion as well. Until now.

 

[drankin]

My guess is that it was unintentional misstep on Obama's part. Either his advisors failed to review the customary protocols, or Obama just screwed up because he was tired from the long trip. At most it was a gesture that has been taken out of context. Anyone reading more into this should probably go live somewhere where things like this matter.

At least he didn't puke at the dinner table and pass out.

A bow doesn't change the US Constitution or US foreign policy.

I think you are right. It wasn't intentionally done as President of the US. I think he forgot who he is for a moment and bowed.

 

[binzing]

I think you are right. It wasn't intentionally done as President of the US. I think he forgot who he is for a moment and bowed.

Uh no, I really doubt he "forgot who he is". If its a mistake at all its minor, meaningless. I completely understand being patriotic but being arrogantly stupid in your patriotism makes no sense, ie "Our President bowed to someone, now no one will see the US as strong again."

 

[chroot]

"Our President bowed to someone, now no one will see the US as strong again."

Bingo, binzing (hey, that's fun to say). What's funny is that the US is clearly not as strong as it once was, and is possibly well on its way to losing "superpower" status. Why do so many people want the American president to pretend otherwise?

Should our leaders remain cocky, arrogant, and beyond reproach forever?

- Warren

 

[binzing]

Bingo, binzing (hey, that's fun to say). What's funny is that the US is clearly not as strong as it once was, and is possibly well on its way to losing "superpower" status. Why do so many people want the American president to pretend otherwise?

Should our leaders remain cocky, arrogant, and beyond reproach forever?

- Warren

No, IMO, they should not. It's only going to lead to more hatred of the US if we don't let ourselves (and this is where our leader comes in, being a representative of the American people) appear human.

 

[Alfi]

... you don't bow to anyone. It's seen as disrespect towards our American concept of equality among people
..
He doesn't seem to care about the traditions of the office of the American Presidency in this respect.

Different strokes. I see a bow as a sign of respect, not disrespect.
How about the traditions of saying thank you and please? Your disrespect is my manners.

I think traditions should be shaken and reexamined every now and then just to see what ones are out of date.
Mark 7:8-9 (NIV)-Jesus speaking: "You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men." And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions."

President Obama campaigned on a platform of change. So far I'd say so far he's sticking to his promises.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

MARK SHIELDS: We spend more on defense than the next 48 countries in the world combined, combined. We are not starving the Pentagon.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june09/politicalwrap_04-10.html

 

[rootX]

Protocol is, out of respect for the office of US President, you don't bow to anyone. It's seen as disrespect towards our American concept of equality among people and the struggle our nation has gone through to be what we have been for a few hundred years.

You can't impose your cultural values onto everyone else, or have similar expectations from them. Bending a little when dealing with people from other cultures wouldn't hurt anyone.

 

[Evo]

It would be easier to post a link that shows that a President actually bowed to a foreign leader. But there is no link. Because it has never happened. I'm not a history buff so I do not have any research to support this fact. I would think that by now, someone would be able to post something, somewhere, that google would pick up that would show that President(s) in the past has/have done this.

Yes, it's my opinion. It's also my opinion that past Presidents observed my opinion as well. Until now.

What about a President bowing to a religious figure?

 

[chroot]

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Obama planned the bow on purpose, precisely because of the effect it would have on the American people -- a little sliver of collective humility might do us well.

- Warren

 

[Evo]

It appears to be ultra conservative right wing groups that are upset, IMO.

A good article on it.

http://mideast.blogs.time.com/2009/04/10/why-obamas-saudi-bow-was-not-a-kow-tow/

 

[BobG]

I was just about to ask about that. Is there a different protocol for religious leaders? And the distance you bow depends on your position in the government?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuFPku5uSQw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2AjLwunKTo

And, of course, the ever famous bow to Iraqi Prime Minister Malicki

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8GOrc0-Ygg

 

[Evo]

Also, the Pope is the ruler of Vatican City. So right there is a picture of Bush not only bowing to a religious leader but the ruler of a country.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

And they thought Kennedy would turn us all into Catholics.

 

[drankin]

Also, the Pope is the ruler of Vatican City. So right there is a picture of Bush not only bowing to a religious leader but the ruler of a country.

Ok, then. Bush, an American President bowed to the Pope. It's ok then. We have a precedent. The representative of America should now bow to foreign religious leaders. Obama is just following Bush's example.

 

[Cyrus]

Ok, then. Bush, an American President bowed to the Pope. It's ok then. We have a precedent. The representative of America should now bow to foreign religious leaders. Obama is just following Bush's example.

I think your missing the point of what you posted earlier. Americans are 'equal' (yeah right, not really but anywho). Americans and people from other countries are not equal. I don't see you up in arms about the fact that we can't touch the little old queen of england. Seriously, your point is rediculous.

 

[buffordboy23]

In the link posted by Alfi it says,

“It wasn’t a bow. He grasped his hand with two hands, and he’s taller than King Abdullah,” the aide was quoted as saying by Politco.com Wednesday.

I disagree with this statement. It's difficult to see because there are people in front, but Obama's head and eyes do not appear to be in direct alignment with the King's. Therefore, he is bowing. Many will conclude from this that Obama is showing subservience to the king and a whole bunch of other crazy ideas that do not follow.

In my opinion, I think Obama made a mistake by not knowing the customs of the foreign leaders he was meeting with. He wanted to make a good impression and so he bowed.

 

[Alfi]

Traditions have to start somewhere.

 

[WhoWee]

This is the REAL problem...not the bow itself

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/09/obama-bow-to-saudis-cnn-r_n_185281.html

..."spin" for no reason...makes you wonder how something that does matter will be handled.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Here is real the significance of this story: Obama has been in office less than 100 days. By the time the spin on this would matter, it won't. By then he can be judged on the success of his economic plan and real foreign policy decisions.

 

[buffordboy23]

This is the REAL problem...not the bow itself

Your likely right, probably not. It could become a problem though if he is consistently unprepared to engage international leaders.

..."spin" for no reason...makes you wonder how something that does matter will be handled.

From what I have seen, most of the spin has come from conservatives. Liberals have been just as guilty on occasions before.

 

[Moonbear]

I don't care if it was a bow or not a bow. I think the leader of any country is entitled to greet the leaders of any other country any way they darn well please. Whose protocol are you supposed to follow anyway? Ours? Theirs? And, gosh, wouldn't it be nice if they could all just say, "The heck with protocol, let's just talk."

Actually, the only thing that bugged me about the whole incident was the White House staff trying to come up with lame explanations for it rather than just saying, "We don't know, we'll ask him next time we talk to him." I think that just made it worse, because it just sounded like they were making excuses for the president, sounding like they were embarrassed.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

What about a President bowing to a religious figure?

I heard about this on the radio and the explanation was similar to Drankin's. Supposedly the US traditionally does not recognize monarchs as such and so the president is not supposed to bow to a monarch because this supposedly gives the impression that the US (or at least its president) recognizes the monarch's throne.

 

[Cyrus]

I heard about this on the radio and the explanation was similar to Drankin's. Supposedly the US traditionally does not recognize monarchs as such and so the president is not supposed to bow to a monarch because this supposedly gives the impression that the US (or at least its president) recognizes the monarch's throne.

The same applies to not touching the queen of England (The monarch we specifically made this no bowing custom about!) Talk about irony.

 

[mgb_phys]

I always thought it was funny when a visiting leader inspects the honor guard at the plane.
Even if the leader is a military guy what is he supposed to do ? Walk down the line and check if the buttons are all shiny? Is he allowed to put someone on a charge if they aren't?

I wonder if there are any heads of state who are former drill sergeants?

 

[mheslep]

Yes, yes, before this whole Obama-bowing fiasco, us Americans have never had to submit to anyone, right? Tax collectors, land lords, teachers, bosses, they've never had any power over us free, independent Americans, right?

Those are all examples of people we as US citizens freely choose or democratically elect to positions of authority, and even then that authority is always limited to the bounds of the particular relationship, and not deserving of any gratuitous displays of submission. Nobody elected Abdullah to any position, certainly not over an American. What any foreign official deserves is a simple display of respect; I read that in the Islamic culture a bow is just that, perhaps it was, I dunno.

 

[mgb_phys]

What about a President bowing to a religious figure?

On a similair note, the vatican has rejected a new US ambassador because of their views on abortion
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7998688.stm
Does this happen with all countries?
Can the Brits reject an ambassador in London who isn't a monarchist, does the ambassador to Iran have to share their views on Isreal?

 

[Evo]

On a similair note, the vatican has rejected a new US ambassador because of their views on abortion
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7998688.stm
Does this happen with all countries?
Can the Brits reject an ambassador in London who isn't a monarchist, does the ambassador to Iran have to share their views on Isreal?

A country does not have to allow an ambassador from another country as far as I know, but I don't know how common screening of appointees to an established embassy is.

IMO, that kind of discrimination reflects poorly on the Vatican.

 

[LowlyPion]

A country does not have to allow an ambassador from another country as far as I know, but I don't know how common screening of appointees to an established embassy is.

IMO, that kind of discrimination reflects poorly on the Vatican.

I think Ray Flynn and the Papists are out of line. Obama can still designate Caroline Kennedy, and the Pope and the snooty Cardinals can go suck eggs with whatever objections they want to make. By not accepting the US Ambassador, whoever that person is, the Vatican position would devolve into a rejection of relations with the US, not any moral reservation about the political position of the Ambassador to the Vatican. The Pope needs the US more than the US has any use for the Pope. Render unto Caesar.

Caroline Kennedy is a Catholic. So what exactly is the Pope upset about? That the US would hold positions about stem cell research and women's rights to choose, because their displeasure isn't changing that, or is it that a life-long Catholic was not bowing to the will of the Pope? I think the Pope has apparently been taking his job description a little too seriously if that's the case.

 

[Hans de Vries]

That's just it. No President in the history of our nation has ever bowed to a foriegn leader. Protocol is, out of respect for the office of US President, you don't bow to anyone. It's seen as disrespect towards our American concept of equality among people and the struggle our nation has gone through to be what we have been for a few hundred years. People had to bow to kings, queens, anyone in power. We got away from that and now were back. I don't care if he starts bowing to his new dog, whatever that ended up being. He doesn't seem to care about the traditions of the office of the American Presidency in this respect.

As I understand you Obama could take some protocol advice from the queen of England
on how to act and behave and how to avoid any informal gestures which could undermine
the absolute authority of his office?

In most of the world "kings and queens" are powerless historical antiquities, puppet role
models which are maintained because of the nostalgic feelings of the most conservative
part of the population who care about these traditions and protocols. You may not realize
but the world has changed quite a bit since you guys immigrated...

Honestly, I feel that people who manage to see anything wrong in Obama's gesture do
so rather because people in that part of the world have a different religion, and at the
same time I feel that Obama's gesture was meant to heal some wounds in that respect.
The fact that the man was not democratically chosen has little to do with the incident.
Regards, Hans

 

[Flat]

Caroline Kennedy is a Catholic. So what exactly is the Pope upset about? That the US would hold positions about stem cell research and women's rights to choose, because their displeasure isn't changing that, or is it that a life-long Catholic was not bowing to the will of the Pope? I think the Pope has apparently been taking his job description a little too seriously if that's the case.

On a slightly relevant note, I found this on my parent's church website. I chuckled a bit.

http://notredamescandal.com/

 

[Alfi]

As I understand you Obama could take some protocol advice from the queen of England
on how to act and behave and how to avoid any informal gestures which could undermine
the absolute authority of his office?
Regards, Hans

Have you seen the picture of the Queen with her arm around Mrs. Obama?
My Mothers jaw dropped when she saw the Queen breaking her own protocols.

I thought it was charming.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090402/ap_on_re_eu/g20_michelle_obama