What Are Others' Perspectives on Reality and Energy?

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Royce
Mr. R B, Uhmm, ya, it's R. P. Not B[/color]
I don't risk it. I never claimed that all energy is the same. The term "energy is a generic term we apply to a non-material phenomenon that we can neither understand nor can define; but, we can detect and observe its effects. There are as many forms of energy as there are things in the universe.
A plant lives yet may contain and need many of the same things that the rock is made of; yet, it lives while the rock doesn't. Clearly it contains or is influenced by some form of energy or force that the rock does/is not.
Either its presentation or our perception of it is differentiated.
To see more clearly we must change the way we look as things and be willing to look at things differently. This is all I'm saying.

Hummm, I suspect that it is neither "presented to us", nor "a perception" (sorta) inasmuch as I susect that as an energy "it" is, simply put, invisible to us completely, ('completely' in this case means 'Absolutely un-measurable' too!) and this is the reason 'why' when we take the Water out of a cell, it dies, and cannot be "re'started" (as if it were a 'mechanical' thing) like a car (lead acid) battery which will basically turn itself off and on relative to us removing and replacing the acid...mechanically.

I suspect that, in the cell, the 'invisible' energy that is at work there, simply disappears from its "intersecting portal" (for lack of a better wording) when its 'supension sys.' (the water) is removed, hence we see "Death of the System", we don't know, neither can we prove, that the energy itself "died" or simply did return to some of other plain/dimension/universe(?).

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Royce
We all are unconsciously aware of the mind of God and his mind touches ours all the time but we may not realize that it is God doing this. To become consciously aware we must look beyound the material everyday world with "altered states of consciousness" into "alternate realities". I use quotes because the terms while in common use are not really correct. An altered state of consciousness may mean a deep medatative state or simply a moment of quiet acceptance or contemplation.
There is only one reality so alternate realities is not the correct term. It is simply looking at reality a different way and seeing that which is beyond the mundane material reality of day to day life.
I offered my post as an alternative answer of yours to Wolf's question of what is reality.
Again matter, material, is the effect not the cause or source of all that is. You yourself have said that matter and enegry are different states or forms of the same thing, energy waves or fields. If this is the case, and it is, then why think that all that exists is or is a product of matter when matter itself is a product of energy. Rather than being a materialist wouldn't it be more appropriate to say you are an energyist, to coin a new term?

Well, Materialism actually refers to the belief that all things are physical, and energy is physical. I said (in response to Wolf) that reality is a physical construct. Anyway, doesn't your philosophy justify using drugs to reach altered states of consciousness? Also, do all altered states of consciousness bring you closer to the mind of God, or is there a specific state one should look for?

 

[Royce]

I have never used drugs so I casn not testify to their effectiveness. I personally wouldn't trust anything I saw or found while under the influence of drugs.
Meditation can bring use closer to the mind of God but what I really think that is does is makes us conscious of our connection and oneness with reality as well as seeing and being in a different reality than we are use to seeing and being in during our everyday normal material lives. It is the same reality, there is only one, but we are able to percieve it differently. This different perception seems or feels more complete and more right than our normal reality.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Royce
I have never used drugs so I casn not testify to their effectiveness. I personally wouldn't trust anything I saw or found while under the influence of drugs.
Meditation can bring use closer to the mind of God but what I really think that is does is makes us conscious of our connection and oneness with reality as well as seeing and being in a different reality than we are use to seeing and being in during our everyday normal material lives. It is the same reality, there is only one, but we are able to percieve it differently. This different perception seems or feels more complete and more right than our normal reality.

Given that it can be shown that food does effectively have "Drugging" effects, (Less obvious and/or intense) just as does nicotine affect the mind in a perported ability to focus better, sugar is know to affect brain function, (in very short and real times) all kinds of things affect the human brain, odors/aroma's have been suggested as study aids, the idea of a drug Increasing effectiveness is sort of wrong, it is just a different approach to a viewpoint.

For myself my 'sortie' started in a forest, Meditation on a rock in the woods, trying to subdue my own fear of just being there all alone, by rational means (sorta effective) and (mostly) emotive training, AKA Tranquility...It sounds weird sort of that I would offer the subjective testimony of a sense of the tree's living energy, their reflection of my fear back at me, (as if they could feel it from me, and they were, in turn, "fearful") repeated, till the point in time (Lotsa that passed) when I could enter the forest without fear of it, thus the reflection of the energies from within the trees, towards myself, became a completely different thing, nice! to the point where on "Soft-Breezy days" it was almost (or was it just my happiness inside me?) as if you could feel that the tress were "Happy" with this particular kind of weather*[/color]...but that is all subjective testimony, has a quality that allows me to discount it completely (for your sake) so's as to ensure that we all stay on the page(s) (of what we know is provable) unless we intend a discourse upon metaphysics exclusively...

*[/color]And a P.S. NO DRUGS USED THERE!

 

[Royce]

Mr.R.P.(sorry about the typo before)
I was going to say that I didn't use drugs other than caffine, nicotine, sugar, chocolate and occasionally alcohol but I left it out for brevity's sake.
Read about what you experienced brought to mind the Druids and others who thought or felt the all such thinks conainded or were spirits. To me what you experience is the oneness of all life and its interaction. In other threads I have related my experiences with raising tomatoes.
If we are in touch with our selves and life we become aware of the responses of plants etc and come to realize that they too in there own way are conscious and aware. I have said this before in other threads.
We may not want to get into metaphysics but I don't think that it can be avoided. Much of reality is subjective as well as much of it being spiritual. You will have no problem with me trying to make you prove subjective experiences. Anyway since all that exists is material or a product of material then subjectivity must also be material so Mentat should have no problem with it either.

 

[Royce]

Mentat,
There is no specfic state that we can try for.
Trying the the very opposite of what we are doing.
This is why I keep saying that we must be accepting. We quiten our minds and sit passively willing to listen and observe, willing to accept whatever we are shown or given. We let go and let happen whatever will happen. It is my understanding that we will be given that which we need and can accept and handle at the moment. We can contemplate something or nothing. We can have a specific question in mind; but, we cannot try to see or do or reach anything specific.
It is like a baby learning to walk. We start out learning to stand up without support not running across the room.

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Royce
I have never used drugs so I casn not testify to their effectiveness. I personally wouldn't trust anything I saw or found while under the influence of drugs.
Meditation can bring use closer to the mind of God but what I really think that is does is makes us conscious of our connection and oneness with reality as well as seeing and being in a different reality than we are use to seeing and being in during our everyday normal material lives. It is the same reality, there is only one, but we are able to percieve it differently. This different perception seems or feels more complete and more right than our normal reality.

But living in this "dream world" (if you'll forgive the term) could put one in danger of losing their common sense, could it not? Aside from this, what makes you think that this new reality is the right one instead of the one that we live our day-to-day lives in? Isn't that just what a person on drugs might think?

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Royce
Mentat,
There is no specfic state that we can try for.
Trying the the very opposite of what we are doing.
This is why I keep saying that we must be accepting. We quiten our minds and sit passively willing to listen and observe, willing to accept whatever we are shown or given. We let go and let happen whatever will happen. It is my understanding that we will be given that which we need and can accept and handle at the moment. We can contemplate something or nothing. We can have a specific question in mind; but, we cannot try to see or do or reach anything specific.
It is like a baby learning to walk. We start out learning to stand up without support not running across the room.

Hmmm...but again I wonder, isn't this complacency and acceptance somewhat dangerous? Isn't it like a person under the influence of drugs, just accepting his "new reality" as being real?

 

[Royce]

One, it is not complacency, it is letting go and letting happen what will happen rather than trying to force thing to happen by our will while meditating.
Two, it does not do away with common sense but enhances it and brings understanding to why it is common sense.
Three, there is no danger as we know that it is true or false we know real from illusion and distraction. If you ever experience it you will know what I'm talking about.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Royce
Mr.R.P.(sorry about the typo before) "No Problemo"...(thanks)[/color]
I was going to say that I didn't use drugs other than caffine, nicotine, sugar, chocolate and occasionally alcohol but I left it out for brevity's sake. Me too![/color]
Read about what you experienced brought to mind the Druids and others who thought or felt the all such thinks conainded or were spirits. To me what you experience is the oneness of all life and its interaction. In other threads I have related my experiences with raising tomatoes.
If we are in touch with our selves and life we become aware of the responses of plants etc and come to realize that they too in there own way are conscious and aware. I have said this before in other threads.
We may not want to get into metaphysics but I don't think that it can be avoided. Much of reality is subjective as well as much of it being spiritual. You will have no problem with me trying to make you prove subjective experiences. Anyway since all that exists is material or a product of material then subjectivity must also be material so Mentat should have no problem with it either.

Thanks appreciate that but I would still stay away from the metaphysical that I know for personal reasons (that 'tree' post "caught up to me" in less then one day, God's Grace, "No Problemo" though...) and the simplicity that some of it is outside of the normal realm of thoughts of most people, no need for them to ever (even so little as) think like that, or about such things.

But I like what you also stated, (below you post, quoted herein) makes me think of the things in my life like the cross country skiing that I used to be able to indulge in, and arouses reminders of the times leaving the house around 9.30/10.00 Am, skiing to a restaurant to have lunch, ("Soup and a Sandwich" waaaaaay before it was 'popular') getting back home around 4.00/4.30 Pm, skied 24 miles through the forests, remember thinking that I was doing more work, "skiing" through the forest, then some of the very labour intensive employments that I had had, and yet loving it...how long it took me to "train" to be able to do that, as I had only started cross country skiing when I was 16, here I was in my mid twenties making 24 miles in a day. (No! not even close to what Olympic "Cross country Skiers" can do, Women too)

All that time I had had with this really good circulation going on in the midst of this intense physical training, (Feeds the brain, well!) and the thought processes, the sensitivity of the body to nutritional needs in such endevours, learning times...still going on, Thank God for that! (IMHO)

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by Royce
One, it is not complacency, it is letting go and letting happen what will happen rather than trying to force thing to happen by our will while meditating.

What's the difference?

Two, it does not do away with common sense but enhances it and brings understanding to why it is common sense.

Interesting. Can you expound on this point a little, please?

Three, there is no danger as we know that it is true or false we know real from illusion and distraction. If you ever experience it you will know what I'm talking about.

So we do know whether something is part of the illusion or whether it is real?

 

[Royce]

Mentat,
Complacency connotates self satisfaction or unawareness of a lack. If one were complacent then one would feel or have no need to meditate or ask questions. Being quiet and passively receptive is not the same as complacency.

Common sense is usually taken to mean that something makes sense without knowing the reason why it makes sense. It is , or usually thought of, as being intuitively obvious. At times while meditating or afterwards while digesting that which was experienced, we often see the reasoning behind something that is accepted as true or is intuitively obvious.
This is not a really good example of understanding common sense but it will give you an idea of what I'm talking about. The bible says that the sins of the father will be visited upon the sons for three generations. This is usually thought of to mean that when the father sins his sons will be guilty of the sin too and held accountable for the sins of the father. It is my understanding that what this really means is that when a father sins it is out of ignorance or character flaw. If the father does not have the knowledge or character to teach his sons differently, he can't teach what he himself does not have or know, then his sons too will be lacking and it will take three generations for that lack to be made up for or done away with. The first is an example of a fearful avenging God of the old testament the latter an example of a loving and understanding God of the new testament who knows and realizes how life on Earth works.
I came to this different view and interpetation while meditating.

Yes, usually while meditating we know that something is true or not, whether it is real or an illusion and whether it is meaningful and relevant or merely a distraction. It has a different feel or flavor to it. Even if we want something to be true or meaningful and get hungup with a distraction, deep down inside we know it for what it is and eventually have to let it go and face what is real and true not what we want to be real or true.
There is no place to hide from the light or the truth. We all stand naked before our God with our souls bared for him to see all. Yet, there is no shame nor guilt unless we ourselves cling to it for our own personal reasons. God understands and loves us God does not condemn nor punish us. We do that to ourselves. God does not forgive us as no forgivness is necessary where there is understanding and love. It is only for us to forgive ourselves as well as others.
This I know as true and this is part of what I have been shown.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Royce
(SNIP)[/color] There is no place to hide from the light or the truth. We all stand naked before our God with our souls bared for him to see all. Yet, there is no shame nor guilt unless we ourselves cling to it for our own personal reasons. God understands and loves us God does not condemn nor punish us. We do that to ourselves. (SNoP)[/color]

Amen.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

As is the nature of my life, this...

originally posted par moi
(SNIP)[/color] skied 24 miles through the forests (SNoP)[/color]

Apparently I erred in my math, it is 24 KMS not miles...but it is interesting to me that it really isn't the distance that counts, (it is, but just not that much) it is the time, as what was going on at that point in time in my life, three/four years after I had finished Puberty, learning something called "Meditation In Motion", sort of like "In the Zone" (I suppose) but really an internal learning that cannot be found in any books (other then the "book within") and is only there, for people, when they are ready, if at all as some will never know it.

 

[radagast]

Other than the interpretation that the experience implies god (and the other theistic interpretations), I have to agree with Royce. The term that pops to my mind, rather than common sense, is clarity of thought.

Back some thirty years ago, I had tried hallucinogens. They do have the power to help you understand your own mind, but they are a double edged sword. It is extremely easy to fall into the trap of using them simply as entertainment or escape. Also, the fact that they alter the way your mind normally works, on such a basic level, leaves you with more insights into how your mind works on the drugs, than off. I had known many, many people that used them back in the 60s, 70s, few, if any attained any understanding.

Meditation is a much more solid path to understanding how your mind works, to clarity of thought and action, and to accepting that which cannot be changed. It's much harder and slower, but something whose results can be trusted.

 

[Jeebus]

Originally posted by radagast
Other than the interpretation that the experience implies god (and the other theistic interpretations), I have to agree with Royce. The term that pops to my mind, rather than common sense, is clarity of thought.

Alright, I contemplated the difference of common sense and clarity of thought for a while, but I am not seeing a prerogative that alters any application of the two. Would you care to help clarify and reach a consensus that juxtaposes the differences?

Thank you.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by radagast
(SNIP)[/color] Meditation is a much more solid path to understanding how your mind works, to clarity of thought and action, and to accepting that which cannot be changed. It's much harder and slower, but something whose results can be trusted. (SNoP)[/color]

Yup!

The 'path' is the thing that is what most people are on, but don't realize, and it is important to realize not just the reward of the learning of "self" forgiveness (Always only in God's light!) but that the entrance to that path begins in the learning of Forgiveness of 'others' first, and foremost.

It is a clear aspect of what knowledge of a "Truth" enables, "Solidity of Path" (knowledge) even in the dark. (neat!)

 

[Royce]

Mr. P,
Two thing to add rather than dispute or disagree.
1. it is the path and our travels along it that is the important process, not the goal or the end of the path that is the most important. It is only while traveling along our paths that we learn and grow and we each have our own path and travel at our own rate. I know that you know this. I put it down only so that others can know.
2. Forgin=ving others is the easy part; but, just, if not more, important is forgiving ourselves. This is the hardest part for me, learning to fortgive myself. Do all of you find this as hard as I do or am I merely harder and more unforgiving of myself. Only through self forgiveness can we find true peace and harmony with in.

radagast,
In my mind clarity of thought and common sense go hand in hand but are not necessarily the same thing. In fact I think that if we should achive true clarity of thought, common sense would become meaningless and be replaced with understanding and harmony. I am having trouble with the term common sense, what does it mean? Does it differ for each of us or is it cultural or societal? How would I best answere Mentat's question? Common sense was just that, common and accepted. I never thought much about it.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Royce
(SNIP)[/color] Forgin=ving others is the easy part; but, just, if not more, important is forgiving ourselves. This is the hardest part for me, learning to fortgive myself. Do all of you find this as hard as I do or am I merely harder and more unforgiving of myself. Only through self forgiveness can we find true peace and harmony with in.
(SNoP)[/color]

Myself, I found self acceptance worked. don't know if I always forgive myself, but rather, try to find "self acceptance" from the lesson(s) that (obviously) needed to be learned. (by me/myself)

It's sort of like if I can learn, well enough, from it, to not repeat it, then I can accept it...it was what I needed to learn...

 

[Royce]

Yeah, acceptance is the first step. Then embracing it. I think that this would be your accepting it as a lesson that you needed to learn. The last step is letting it go so that it no longer has any effect on us. It no longer has any guilt or shame attached to it but is simply a memory of a lesson learned or experience that makes us who and what we are.
I think that I suppressed so much of this stuff while young that I never dealt with it at the time. Now I have to dig it up and figure out what it meant to me at the time and why. Once I understand then I can deal with it. Often the hardest part is figuring out what the hell this is all about and why should it surface now. It usually is so trivial and in consequential that I don't know why it is still there in the first place.
It is meditation that brings all of this and other things to mind or consciousness and shows me how to deal with it. It isn't always easy and often puzzling at first.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Royce, it is the value of your education, as it is now the value of your time, to you...keep going, you'll get there...

 

[Royce]

Thanks Mr. P., I know but at times it seems such a long road to travel. At other times I'm amazed at how far I've come. It all ways surprises me at how much junk and negative trash that I brought with me from my childhood and younger years. I've gotten rid of, let go, so much that i be gin to think that I've gotten rid of it all more pops up that I don't even consciously remember full of emotional content that I didn't even know it or I had.

 

[ambient]

Praise be to logic!

Hello everyone!

I was quite enterntained by this thread.
However, it really surprises me that the
only truly objective and scientifically
rigorous person here is Mumeishi!

Gosh, all of this misunderstanding in
Quantum Mechanics about the duality
of the particles brought forward
silly notions of consciosness being
able to alter reality. Yes, from initial
explanation of particle duality, you could
possibly derive that, but the thing is that
the definition of uncertainty was flawed.

For all of you who still think that particle
does not exist until it is measured - here is
the breaking news! READ MORE ON QUANTUM PHYSICS!
NOT METAPHYSICS. I understand that hoaky stuff is
much more fascinating, but it is just that - hoaky!
As for the particle uncertainty - the particles are
not necessarily particles, but rather waves with
unique qualities. Basically, if you want to see an
electron as a particle you will, but the more you try
to define it as a particle, the less you can define it
as a wave, and vice versa. There is nothing magical here,
it is just the challange of describing quantum physics by
the means of classical physics.

As for chi and other seemingly superhuman feats in
martial arts - it is just your ordinary kinetic and potential
energies combined with the power of suggestion.
And it is truly a fact - the most effective martial arts are
Ju-Jitsu, Judo, Boxing/Kickboxing. Karate to some extent.
But all the fancy Aikido, Kung-fu, etc. - they don't
work in the real world. Watch the UFC competition - the
best example of what works and what does not.

Have any of you joined the army? They don't teach fancy
stuff in there, they teach you what works - basic strikes,
grappling, and my favorite - eye-gouging.

If you are still a big believer in fancy, chi-oriented martial
arts that means that you haven't really been in a decent fight.

Bash me, trash me, argue with me, but what I have stated
here are for the most part real life facts. Tough to deal
with for some, but REAL nonetheless.


P.S. Do they speak English in Nova Scotia? Doesn't seem like it.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Royce
Thanks Mr. P., I know but at times it seems such a long road to travel. At other times I'm amazed at how far I've come. It all ways surprises me at how much junk and negative trash that I brought with me from my childhood and younger years. I've gotten rid of, let go, so much that i be gin to think that I've gotten rid of it all more pops up that I don't even consciously remember full of emotional content that I didn't even know it or I had.

Perhaps it is because it really isn't 'trash' (or junk) but something that you could "stand to learn something from", maybe that is why it comes back, repetitvely, maybe you have missed an important lesson from one, or more, (or NOT) of them.
Maybe/Perhaps not...

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by ambient
(SNIP)[/color] I was quite enterntained by this thread.
However, it really surprises me that the
only truly objective and scientifically
rigorous person here is Mumeishi! (SNoP)[/color]

Ahem, all this is "subjective testimony" as is (in the end) all Science, what I suspect(ed) was being attempted (herein) was simply describing, or a description, of, reality...we tried to comply...

Originally posted by ambient
(SNIP)[/color] P.S. Do they speak English in Nova Scotia? Doesn't seem like it. (SNoP)[/color]

Yes they do, why do you ask? may I ask?

 

[Royce]

Mr. P.,
Most I think that it is unresolved isses that are coming up. which of couirse contains unlearned lessons to be learned. Its like cleaning house, not spring cleaning in this case, more like fall cleaning. We all have to go through it to one degree or another. It is also a source of distraction as I/we get hung up on some things that happened long ago.
It is not that I dispare; but, more to let others know that they are not alone and that they can get through it. Meditation can be and ussually is painful though we may not know the source of the pain.
Once through it even partially we begin to reep the benefits of inner knowledge and peace. Once we let go of the negative things like rage, anger, shame, and guilt we are filled instead with truth, light, peace and yes even joy. The negatives are gone forever and can no longer hurt or harm us just and the peace and harmony are forever.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Royce, I agree, from experiance...God's Grace, in my life...
(as it is in all lives)

 

[Mentat]

Originally posted by ambient
Hello everyone!

I was quite enterntained by this thread.
However, it really surprises me that the
only truly objective and scientifically
rigorous person here is Mumeishi!

Hey, what are you trying to say? http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/sauer/angry-smiley-019.gif

Bash me, trash me, argue with me, but what I have stated
here are for the most part real life facts. Tough to deal
with for some, but REAL nonetheless.

Well, inspite of the fact that I agree with your conclusion (even if not with your method of presentation), I must mention that there are still serious scientists who are working toward a theory of "quantum consciousness". I may think such an attempt is foolish, when the mathematics of QM work just fine to describe the physics without conciousness ever even being mentioned, but anyone who thinks they can make it work is entitled to try.

ambient, it would do you much good to cease stating scientific knowledge as though it were fact. The Scientific Method is not designed so that one might preach absolute truth, but is (instead) very plastic and changeable.

 

[Royce]

Originally posted by Mentat

ambient, it would do you much good to cease stating scientific knowledge as though it were fact. The Scientific Method is not designed so that one might preach absolute truth, but is (instead) very plastic and changeable.

Well said Mentat, I'm proud of you. This is so much better than your devil's advocate facade.

 

[ambient]

To Mentat:

Actually, after reading this thread again, I've
realized that you are another person who can
make a very well stated and coherent point.

I agree that I should not word my posts in the
way that suggests that science provides us with
facts. I realize that science rather provides
us with approximations, with the most accurate
answers possible at the time, yet these answers
may not always be the absolute truth.

However, at this point in time they provide us
with the best tools to help us understand
reality. They are the best in the context of
objectivity.

I am not completely discounting the fact that
we do construct our own reality, for all I know
nothing but my very conciousness is real. But there
is a vast amount of evidence that can show that this
theory is wrong.

In the end, I believe that our belief system should be
based on the most plausible and sound approximations.
Which makes the probabilty of them being facts very high.

On the other hand, any notion that contradicts the
scientific norm and does not show much proof, is not
impossible, but rather improbable.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Ambient you do realize this is the "Metaphysics and Epistimology" forum, right? not QM or SR "rigor servile"...

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by ambient
Gosh, all of this misunderstanding in
Quantum Mechanics about the duality
of the particles brought forward
silly notions of consciosness being
able to alter reality. Yes, from initial
explanation of particle duality, you could
possibly derive that, but the thing is that
the definition of uncertainty was flawed.

Kinda funny you say that, Dr. David Suzuki's television show "The Nature of Things" did a show on just that topic, with Scientific measure of results ("method" {Metaphysical?} is as yet unmeasurable..) that would lend 'credance' to the idea that there is an as yet unmeasured aspect of the Human mind that HAS influence over matter, so until the method is measurable the results are argueably arguable...

Originally posted by ambient
For all of you who still think that particle
does not exist until it is measured - here is
the breaking news! READ MORE ON QUANTUM PHYSICS!
NOT METAPHYSICS. I understand that hoaky stuff is
much more fascinating, but it is just that - hoaky!
As for the particle uncertainty - the particles are
not necessarily particles, but rather waves with
unique qualities. Basically, if you want to see an
electron as a particle you will, but the more you try
to define it as a particle, the less you can define it
as a wave, and vice versa. There is nothing magical here,
it is just the challange of describing quantum physics by
the means of classical physics.

A challenge? HUH?

Originally posted by ambient
and my favorite - eye-gouging.

Cheese, nice guy...

Originally posted by ambient
P.S. Do they speak English in Nova Scotia? Doesn't seem like it.

Asked you why you asked, they do, been there N S E & W ...

 

[ambient]

To Mr. Parsons:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ambient
For all of you who still think that particle
does not exist until it is measured - here is
the breaking news! READ MORE ON QUANTUM PHYSICS!
NOT METAPHYSICS. I understand that hoaky stuff is
much more fascinating, but it is just that - hoaky!
As for the particle uncertainty - the particles are
not necessarily particles, but rather waves with
unique qualities. Basically, if you want to see an
electron as a particle you will, but the more you try
to define it as a particle, the less you can define it
as a wave, and vice versa. There is nothing magical here,
it is just the challange of describing quantum physics by
the means of classical physics.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A challenge? HUH?

What I mean is that at this stage in our development even
our language lacks proper terms for describing and
defining quantum physics. I am not quite sure what you were trying
to say by quoting my post.

As for the eye-gouging - it is a rather effective technique. That
or fist to the throat, solar plexes, kick to the knee of shin.
Kicking someone in the groin can be effective, but nowadays most
fighters anticipate it. Anyways, I am not an aggressive person,
actually I would do as much as I could to avoid a fight.

I asked whether they spoke English in Nova Scotia because "WOLF"
seems to have very superficial knowledge of the English language.
Now, I am not the best speller myself, but what he does on this
post is horrible, and it takes away from his credibility as well.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by ambient
What I mean is that at this stage in our development even
our language lacks proper terms for describing and
defining quantum physics. I am not quite sure what you were trying
to say by quoting my post. Something like what you point out above, but adding in that, it can be done, and the English language is sufficient to do it...[/color]

As for the eye-gouging - it is a rather effective technique. That
or fist to the throat, solar plexes, kick to the knee of shin.
Kicking someone in the groin can be effective, but nowadays most
fighters anticipate it. Anyways, I am not an aggressive person,
actually I would do as much as I could to avoid a fight. Thanks for the clarification, as a LAST resort it might be needed to defend a life, but your saying it was Your "Favorite" leads people to believe otherwise...you can understand that, right?[/color]

I asked whether they spoke English in Nova Scotia because "WOLF"
seems to have very superficial knowledge of the English language.
Now, I am not the best speller myself, but what he does on this
post is horrible, and it takes away from his credibility as well.

It was a sort of vague reference and to impune the reputations of all Acadians, based upon your experience with one, well, tells clearly of your judgmental abilities(!)??

 

[Wolf]

My apologies

quick apologies for my poor spelling for all who want to know i was in french for half os my education. so i have a hard time spelling in english but trust me what i speak of i know about. for if one knows not about something one should not speak of it and that is not this case i know what i speak of i just have a hard time converting it to written or typed work so my sincer apologies for all who have had a hard time reading my post.also my apologies for not posting in the past 2 weeks for i have been busy.i asure all who is reading that i will post more frequant more knowledgeable post and most of all easier to read.

 

[Wolf]

To ambient

ambient this is for your RUDE,IGNORANT MOST BLATANT REMARKS I HAVE HEARD IN YEARS.Being a former student of a master whom had 21 black belts (including the ones you had named) and being told personaly by him that Nin-Jitsu,Central Kung-Fu and Adv tae-kwon-doe are The Top Ultimate martial arts and then for someone to say that the lowest rating martial arts in the world are "the only working ones" i actually must aplaud you...FOR GIVING ME THE GREATEST LAUGH I HAVE HAD IN YEARS...Then for you to argue what chi can do and for you to Disgrace it's very name the way you did...Tells me that you have no clue what chi is...And for one to speak of a subject they know nothing of is for one to venture unto the lions den blind...i am assuming that you have not that much fighting experience or you would not say that kung-fu and that other flashy stuff does not work...and even if you do have fighting experience i Garunte your experience is no where near mine...i am not a violent person but i do have experience from tournaments trust when i say that what you mostly what you described does not work...also when you said that only one person is speaking science in this thread, is well proving your ignorance furthur...incase you have not noticed some way this thread is under M-E-T-A-P-H-Y-S-I-C-S- and with that i am done if you wish to debate anything i have said then post or add me to msn if you have it ...my email is Tempestwolfmaxxedout@hotmail.com and if anyone else would like to talk about any of these subjects please feel free to do so

 

[Wolf]

Again

Why is it that in a metaphysical thread ppl are speaking only in science and are refusing to except othjer posiblities?is it because they are afraid to seek out other sources of "true" info?or is that that science has "proven" this if so they i ask this ...How do you know science is right? where you there when it was proven?was there some omni potent force that came down and said "this is right? what i am saying is "why except but one truth when there could be many?"this is why i like metaphysics and "study" it(i used the quotes because you canot study metaphysics because it is a natural skill of simple questions and anwseres that lead to more questions but you can get better at it by "studying" it or using it as much as posible)because it excepts the posibilities of more then one definite answer.

 

[onycho]

Originally posted by ambient


Gosh, all of this misunderstanding in
Quantum Mechanics about the duality
of the particles brought forward
silly notions of consciosness being
able to alter reality. Yes, from initial
explanation of particle duality, you could
possibly derive that, but the thing is that
the definition of uncertainty was flawed.

Ambient it is rather simplistic to think that consciousness has anything to do with QM particle duality or waves with unique properties. Human beings seem to associate their own consciousness with an activity within the brain. The brain, like everything else, is simply a directed formation of basic particles designed in an irreducible complexity. Nothing indicates that these particle/wave properties can comprehend their surroundings or choose anything independently. You are correct in the concept of 'mind altering matter' being flawed.

For all of you who still think that particle
does not exist until it is measured - here is
the breaking news! READ MORE ON QUANTUM PHYSICS!
NOT METAPHYSICS. I understand that hoaky stuff is
much more fascinating, but it is just that - hoaky!
As for the particle uncertainty - the particles are
not necessarily particles, but rather waves with
unique qualities. Basically, if you want to see an
electron as a particle you will, but the more you try
to define it as a particle, the less you can define it
as a wave, and vice versa. There is nothing magical here,
it is just the challange of describing quantum physics by
the means of classical physics.

Unfortunately wave with unique properties (acting sometimes like particles) should not appear to have independent wisdom or affect particles billions of light years away instantly. This violates the basic tenet of Einstein that nothing travels faster than the light photon. If anyone feels they have a solid hold on QM physics, they are very much mistaken.

There are so many imponderables in QM that are not yet known.

 

[Rader]

Condsider a profound mystery in biology that is not accounted for by classical assumptions. The average neuron consists of about 80 percent water and about 100,000 molecules. The brain contains about 10 billion cells, hence about 10x15 molecules. Each nerve cell in the brain receives an average of 10,000 connections from other brain cells, and the molecules within each cell are renewed about 10,000 times in a lifetime. We loose about 1,000 cells a day, so the total brain cell population is decimated by about 10 million cells, losing in the process some 100 billion cross-linkages. "And yet" "despite this ceaseless change of detail in the vast population of elements, our basic patterns of behavior, our memories, our sense of intergral existence as an individual, have retained there unitary continuity of pattern". All of the material used to express that pattern has disappeared, and yet the pattern still exist. What holds the pattern, if not matter? Classical physics tells us that atoms and electrons of the same type are undifferentiated. How do the atoms that compose memory know how to pass on the information? Because they most certainly do.

Another conundrum before i make my point, what happens, after a long days work of the human mind thinking, through quantum tunnelling to make all those synapses convert into memory. Upon leaving the wake state and entering the dream state all electrons in the brain are in a state. Upon leaving the dream state and entering the wake state in order for us to know who we are those same electrons would have to be in exactly the same state as the previous. If they were not, how is it that we do not wake up with a differnt personality or new reality?

Something is going on here that is affecting QM in a sub-quantum level. Everything indicates that these particle/wave properties can comprehend their surroundings or choose anything independently.
It appears mind and matter might be undifferentiated also.

 

[onycho]

Actually in my humble opinion, consciousness and awareness are not located within the brain or its billions of neuronal connections.

You have pointed out the problems in this metaphysics discussion. Some say that a part of this conundrum is found in those who have Alzheimers or injury to the brain. The human is no longer able to live in this physical world. The human consciousness slowly diminishes while in the 'brain' conscious awareness slowly disappears.

It appears that all our consciousness is within a giant holograph that not only creates our brain but its awareness of our everyday life and assumption of existence.

http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html

This premis would explain many things. The apparent connection of all the particles of the universe or what is on the other side of our universe border or simply the questions you have posed can be answered by a super-holographic dimensional universe.

As time goes on, I think that we will begin to understand the true reality of existence minus our daily reality.

But this is only my opinion.

 

[Rader]

Originally posted by onycho
Actually in my humble opinion, consciousness and awareness are not located within the brain or its billions of neuronal connections.

I would agree with this statement but, we have to analize this a little closer and define this more than in a few simple words. It might be more correct to say that matter is conscious and aware depending on the extent of its complexity. Things of higher complexity are more conscious and aware. Consciousness and awareness use the complexity of matter to manifest itself in different levels. Consciousness and awareness seem to use matter as a doorway.

You have pointed out the problems in this metaphysics discussion. Some say that a part of this conundrum is found in those who have Alzheimers or injury to the brain. The human is no longer able to live in this physical world. The human consciousness slowly diminishes while in the 'brain' conscious awareness slowly disappears.

This is an interesting analogy also. If what i state was not so having alzheimers, getting drunk or taking drugs should not affect our conscious awareness. Biology plays a part but it is secondary, we can affect changes in consciousness and awareness by doing biological manipilations. In humans, consciousness and awareness grows from birth to death. That is the way it appears to us but that might not be the way reality really is.

It appears that all our consciousness is within a giant holograph that not only creates our brain but its awareness of our everyday life and assumption of existence.

I tend to agree, there has been much controlled experimentation on psi over the years, that does give above chance statistics, that this just may be so. The evidence is there or we do not know math statistics. More of a fact, might be that, for socialogical reasons, most scientists are not aware of it.
Dean Radin "The Conscious Universe" ISBN 0-06-251502-0


http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html

This premis would explain many things. The apparent connection of all the particles of the universe or what is on the other side of our universe border or simply the questions you have posed can be answered by a super-holographic dimensional universe.

We know there are many syconocities. We know that there are strang links between things but why do they happen, when they happen and to whom they happen is the next question to answer.

As time goes on, I think that we will begin to understand the true reality of existence minus our daily reality.

We can build and design holograms, maybe Someone thought of it first.

But this is only my opinion.

 

[onycho]

Originally posted by Rader

It might be more correct to say that matter is conscious and aware depending on the extent of its complexity. Things of higher complexity are more conscious and aware. Consciousness and awareness use the complexity of matter to manifest itself in different levels. Consciousness and awareness seem to use matter as a doorway.

I am having a little difficulty with your statement. Matter is conscious but I do not think it depends on any extent of complexity. In previous posts I have stated that I believe that all matter or particles in the universe are probably equally conscious and aware. Humans are very complex and yet we are composed of nothing more or less than the same subatomic matter/particles as that within a star, a mouse, a photon or even gravitons. The basic question is what makes the particles that make up humans or animals animate? What gives our particles consciousness when in my opinion all the other particles in the universe have the same cognition? As for consciousness and awareness using matter for anything I find a problem here. WHERE DID CONSCIOUSNESS AND AWARENESS ARISE AND WHAT IS ITS SOURCE?

In humans, consciousness and awareness grows from birth to death. That is the way it appears to us but that might not be the way reality really is.

I see consciousness and awareness existing in a timelessness which only manifests itself in our short reality for a short 'time' span in an infinity continuum. I do not think that consciousness or awareness grows or appears at birth or death. In my opinion, our conscious awareness existed an infinity before we were born and will continue in the same dimension for an infinity of timelessness after we leave this plane of existence in which we assume.

I tend to agree, there has been much controlled experimentation on psi over the years, that does give above chance statistics, that this just may be so. The evidence is there or we do not know math statistics. More of a fact, might be that, for socialogical reasons, most scientists are not aware of it.
Dean Radin "The Conscious Universe" ISBN 0-06-251502-0

Scientists and regular humans assume that we exist in a solid state world with awareness of things. Scientists are busy measuring and experimenting and computing that which their consciousness awareness finds present. I am not so sure that reality can be so measured.

We know there are many syconocities. We know that there are strang links between things but why do they happen, when they happen and to whom they happen is the next question to answer.

I believe that there are some questions and answers that are way beyond our finite reach. I perceive the air around me but can I measure the atoms in this air? This is only a simple illustration of that which illuminates our knowledge of things not available to our senses or knowledge.

We can build and design holograms, maybe Someone thought of it first.

Maybe everything was designed by an Originator who placed a long chain encrypted code of His design that is available to our decryption as we speak. But that is another story.

 

[Rader]

Originally posted by onycho
Originally posted by Rader

It might be more correct to say that matter is conscious and aware depending on the extent of its complexity. Things of higher complexity are more conscious and aware. Consciousness and awareness use the complexity of matter to manifest itself in different levels. Consciousness and awareness seem to use matter as a doorway.

I am having a little difficulty with your statement. Matter is conscious but I do not think it depends on any extent of complexity. In previous posts I have stated that I believe that all matter or particles in the universe are probably equally conscious and aware. Humans are very complex and yet we are composed of nothing more or less than the same subatomic matter/particles as that within a star, a mouse, a photon or even gravitons. The basic question is what makes the particles that make up humans or animals animate? What gives our particles consciousness when in my opinion all the other particles in the universe have the same cognition? As for consciousness and awareness using matter for anything I find a problem here. WHERE DID CONSCIOUSNESS AND AWARENESS ARISE AND WHAT IS ITS SOURCE?

Let me be more specific. All matter is conscious and aware and would have the potentiality, to be anything, through a decision process, with design built into it. Yes we are all built of the same waves/particles but not all systems reflect the level of consciousness and awareness equally, the determining factor is complexity. What makes things animate?, my assumption is consciousness, life, Designer. Do these three words have to be separate entities?, could they not be the same thing? What gives our particles consciousness? Complexity of matter, with hidden variables, in the design that we know nothing of yet. In our matrix, it appears to us that both matter and consciousness does evolve, but only within the context of the I.. It appears that the most fundamental building block is waves since we assume that we can see only particles. It appears that when a body returns to innate matter, there is no consciousness, awareness or life, at the level it once had. The innate matter is still conscious but only of what it can be at that level, with its potentiality to be again. As for consciousness and awareness using matter for anything, a doorway for matter to manifest the I.

In humans, consciousness and awareness grows from birth to death. That is the way it appears to us but that might not be the way reality really is.

I see consciousness and awareness existing in a timelessness which only manifests itself in our short reality for a short 'time' span in an infinity continuum. I do not think that consciousness or awareness grows or appears at birth or death. In my opinion, our conscious awareness existed an infinity before we were born and will continue in the same dimension for an infinity of timelessness after we leave this plane of existence in which we assume.

We are trying to describe the same side of the coin with different faces. I understand what you write but interpret it differently. A individual human being never makes use of that potentiality of consciousness and awareness if it dies at birth, it must live the individual life. One thing that really bothers me, is if something of what we are survives this matrix, what i refer to specifically is not only soul but knowledge of the I.

I tend to agree, there has been much controlled experimentation on psi over the years, that does give above chance statistics, that this just may be so. The evidence is there or we do not know math statistics. More of a fact, might be that, for sociological reasons, most scientists are not aware of it.
Dean Radin "The Conscious Universe" ISBN 0-06-251502-0

Scientists and regular humans assume that we exist in a solid state world with awareness of things. Scientists are busy measuring and experimenting and computing that which their consciousness awareness finds present. I am not so sure that reality can be so measured.

I am aware of the way it appears to be. Measurement is an undetermined function in our matrix, due to the fact that measurement stick keeps getting smaller, the closer we try to measure. Time also plays the same tricks on us to measure. Reality not the matrix seems to indicate, the ultimate measurement might just not have a time or measurement to it.

We know there are many synchronicities. We know that there are strange links between things but why do they happen, when they happen and to whom they happen is the next question to answer.

I believe that there are some questions and answers that are way beyond our finite reach. I perceive the air around me but can I measure the atoms in this air? This is only a simple illustration of that which illuminates our knowledge of things not available to our senses or knowledge.

Yes but then again there seems to be great evidence of things around us and not so very near us that we can perceive at any distance. What I mean is that mind seems to affect matter in ways we are only beginning to understand.

We can build and design holograms, maybe Someone thought of it first.

Maybe everything was designed by an Originator who placed a long chain encrypted code of His design that is available to our decryption as we speak. But that is another story.

Maybe

 

[onycho]

Originally posted by Rader

Let me be more specific. All matter is conscious and aware and would have the potentiality, to be anything, through a decision process, with design built into it.

Whose design?

Yes we are all built of the same waves/particles but not all systems reflect the level of consciousness and awareness equally, the determining factor is complexity.

What makes one system more complex than another?

What makes things animate?, my assumption is consciousness, life, Designer. Do these three words have to be separate entities?, could they not be the same thing?

Designer = consciousness = life ~ animation? Can life create a Designer? Can consciousnes create a Designer? Does a Designer require life (as we know it) or consciousness (as we know it) as a priori for animation or the Designer's own ominscience?

What gives our particles consciousness? Complexity of matter, with hidden variables, in the design that we know nothing of yet. In our matrix, it appears to us that both matter and consciousness does evolve, but only within the context of the I.. It appears that the most fundamental building block is waves since we assume that we can see only particles.

What makes matter and particle consciousness evolve and from what do they evolve? You say that hidden variables not yet known have a complexity for particle/matter to be both conscious and animate or have these effects always been present in an infinity of timelessness? Why must we assume that the basic building block be a wave since our senses can only appreciate particles being present? Is the 'I' a wave, a particle, a consciousness or do we just not know?

It appears that when a body returns to innate matter, there is no consciousness, awareness or life, at the level it once had. The innate matter is still conscious but only of what it can be at that level, with its potentiality to be again. As for consciousness and awareness using matter for anything, a doorway for matter to manifest the I.

What makes you think that there is no consciousness or awareness or even life experience when a human returns to its basic particles?

Proposition: What if consciousness and awareness have been present in a timeless dimension that was there before you were born and continues after your Earth body dies? What if nothing evolves but is created ex nihilo like science now considers the origin or Big Bang out of a void? Just a thought or two...

We are trying to describe the same side of the coin with different faces. I understand what you write but interpret it differently. A individual human being never makes use of that potentiality of consciousness and awareness if it dies at birth, it must live the individual life. One thing that really bothers me, is if something of what we are survives this matrix, what i refer to specifically is not only soul but knowledge of the I.

Why do you think a still born baby or a baby who dies at birth not continue to use the same consciousness and awareness that we all had, have and will have on a timeless continuum? You are making assumptions from your subjective point of view but so am I... This is a discussion of the metaphysical which no one can know.

I am aware of the way it appears to be. Measurement is an undetermined function in our matrix, due to the fact that measurement stick keeps getting smaller, the closer we try to measure. Time also plays the same tricks on us to measure. Reality not the matrix seems to indicate, the ultimate measurement might just not have a time or measurement to it.

I'm not sure what you mean by our matrix or measuring sticks or time playing tricks but ultimately our finite attempts to understand the basic nature of things might just be beyond mankind's reach.

 

[Rader]

Originally posted by onycho
Originally posted by Rader

Whose design?

"Not known" but the more, the explicit orders of nature are investigated and understood, the more evidence, that there is, a implicit order that emcompasses all the explicit order in nature. I do not think design was a roll of the dice, it was intentional, although this is just only my opinion.

What makes one system more complex than another?

"Not known" but through observation and study and confirmation of evidence, it shows us that a entity which has a more complex DNA strand, demonstates, more complexity of consciousness and awareness at a higher level. The number of atoms or molecules grouped together? The number of particles that are really either or waves/particles? Thats all that is known. Sorry there is only poor answers.

Designer = consciousness = life ~ animation? Can life create a Designer? Can consciousnes create a Designer? Does a Designer require life (as we know it) or consciousness (as we know it) as a priori for animation or the Designer's own ominscience?

"Not known" You or i could answer yes or no to all of those questions. Notwithstanding these three words could be a very poor description of whatever there is "mas alla" "out there" Designer = consciousness = life and be the samething, in our terms, or quite the opposite in another way, we know nothing of. I do not think we can define this in human terms, only try.

What makes matter and particle consciousness evolve and from what do they evolve? You say that hidden variables not yet known have a complexity for particle/matter to be both conscious and animate or have these effects always been present in an infinity of timelessness? Why must we assume that the basic building block be a wave since our senses can only appreciate particles being present? Is the 'I' a wave, a particle, a consciousness or do we just not know?

"Not known" A purpose through its design, from a Will. The potentiallity of these effects would seem to have to be in an infinity of timelessness. What else do we have except the observation of the I. Physics decribes up til now, nature as, wave/particle or both. Notwithstanding Consciousness is not physical nor are emotions and may just be part of what "Mind" is. It is all and nothing, depends how you want to define this.

What makes you think that there is no consciousness or awareness or even life experience when a human returns to its basic particles?

I do not think that. There is great evidence to the contrary. OBE

Proposition: What if consciousness and awareness have been present in a timeless dimension that was there before you were born and continues after your Earth body dies? What if nothing evolves but is created ex nihilo like science now considers the origin or Big Bang out of a void? Just a thought or two...

It is a logical possiblity, that it is so. But what concerns me present, is why did Something in a timeless dimension use its consciousness and awareness to peer into what it is not. I can not know if you really understand what i am trying to say. I just know what i mean.

Why do you think a still born baby or a baby who dies at birth not continue to use the same consciousness and awareness that we all had, have and will have on a timeless continuum? You are making assumptions from your subjective point of view but so am I... This is a discussion of the metaphysical which no one can know.

I really would like to know just what you intend to mean by this. I am not sure i understand you, can you explain further. If i understand you correctly, conception would mean that a life, lived or not would be fulfilled in this timeless continuum whether the entity lived evolved and died or not in our matrix reality.

I'm not sure what you mean by our matrix or measuring sticks or time playing tricks but ultimately our finite attempts to understand the basic nature of things might just be beyond mankind's reach.

By our matrix i mean only our reality not what might be the "REALITY" I mean that we can not measure the coast of England because evertime we try to measure the next curve on the beach in smaller terms, we will end up measuring waves, i do not mean water waves. I meant that the measurement of time, depends upon the observer only.

I wish i could answer you with better answers but so much is "not known to me"

 

[onycho]

Originally posted by Rader

Whose design?

"Not known" but the more, the explicit orders of nature are investigated and understood, the more evidence, that there is, a implicit order that emcompasses all the explicit order in nature. I do not think design was a roll of the dice, it was intentional, although this is just only my opinion.

In my opinion you are correct. For there to be a roll of the dice would imply that Someone had to roll them. The universe and its creations rely on each miniscule part relying on another factor without which nothing would occur as it is may be referred to as irreducible complexity. There is a - 0% statistical probability that the universe and everything in it could have come about by a roll of the dice whether by chaos or an unseen hand.

What makes one system more complex than another?

"Not known" but through observation and study and confirmation of evidence, it shows us that a entity which has a more complex DNA strand, demonstates, more complexity of consciousness and awareness at a higher level. The number of atoms or molecules grouped together? The number of particles that are really either or waves/particles? Thats all that is known. Sorry there is only poor answers.

Actually there is valid scientific evidence that every sub-atomic particle has wisdom or (intelligence) that you and I share. Even across the universe or across the room particles are aware of each other much like that described in a giant hologram. But like you say, the truth of everything is unknown and our beliefs probably have nothing to do with reality.

"Not known" You or i could answer yes or no to all of those questions. Notwithstanding these three words could be a very poor description of whatever there is "mas alla" "out there" Designer = consciousness = life and be the samething, in our terms, or quite the opposite in another way, we know nothing of. I do not think we can define this in human terms, only try.

What you are now saying is exactly what the Bible says about a Designer. He is unknownable, indescribable, without form or shape, cannot be seen by man, omniscient, timeless, not created and not a human being nor has human relatives. The question to answer is what existed before the Big Bang and what was a 'void'?

"Not known" A purpose through its design, from a Will. The potentiallity of these effects would seem to have to be in an infinity of timelessness. What else do we have except the observation of the I. Physics decribes up til now, nature as, wave/particle or both. Notwithstanding Consciousness is not physical nor are emotions and may just be part of what "Mind" is. It is all and nothing, depends how you want to define this.

Okay. Do we have an observation of the 'I' or do we assume that 'we' have an observation of the whole of humanity and life forms from a universal consciousness. Something like one part of a multiple level of freewill from which our minds perceive a solid universe of particles and protons (light) from darkness? These metaphysical questions have been posed by mankind for centuries.

What makes you think that there is no consciousness or awareness or even life experience when a human returns to its basic particles?

I do not think that. There is great evidence to the contrary. OBE

What evidence do we have? No one has come back from the great beyond to tell anyone about any continued flow of consciousness. We humans simply hope and want to believe that this life is not all there is but there is no valid evidence to the contrary.

Proposition: What if consciousness and awareness have been present in a timeless dimension that was there before you were born and continues after your Earth body dies? What if nothing evolves but is created ex nihilo like science now considers the origin or Big Bang out of a void? Just a thought or two...

It is a logical possiblity, that it is so. But what concerns me present, is why did Something in a timeless dimension use its consciousness and awareness to peer into what it is not. I can not know if you really understand what i am trying to say. I just know what i mean.

Your are asking the eons old question of WHY and HOW would a Designer do what He did for us in the creation of our universe and existense. The only answer I have been given is that He wants us, His creations to assist in the continued creation on this the seventh day. If you think about it, creation continues forward each micro-second to micro-second. Everything is being renewed and changes on our level and the universal level continue from instant to instant. Our role in all this is said to use our freewill to choose to create or destroy the Creators continuous changes.

Why do you think a still born baby or a baby who dies at birth not continue to use the same consciousness and awareness that we all had, have and will have on a timeless continuum? You are making assumptions from your subjective point of view but so am I... This is a discussion of the metaphysical which no one can know.

I really would like to know just what you intend to mean by this. I am not sure i understand you, can you explain further. If i understand you correctly, conception would mean that a life, lived or not would be fulfilled in this timeless continuum whether the entity lived evolved and died or not in our matrix reality.

What I think is that what we call life is nothing more than 'freewill' on a continuum in the same timelessness (singularity) that has existed forever. That for a short 'now' time, this freewill becomes what you refer to as the I and we are allowed to assume a solid reality with laws of physics, a body, a brain, a universe, flowers, clouds, water, etc. I do not understand your words matrix reality. I do believe that the Designer has created an encrypted code or blueprint of everything like humans now understand to be in the DNA molecule which is said to form one cell into a differentiation of cells that form our bodies. This is irreducible complexity but on a greater level, a similar code occurs in a string of letters numbering 308,504 letters long. But that is another story and this blueprint is now being studied by many scientists and cryptologists around the world. Now that we have very powerful computers, this code is slowly being revealed but only the surface of the code has been found to this point.

 

[Rader]

Design

Originally posted by onycho
Originally posted by Rader

Whose design?

I do not understand your words matrix reality.

Matrix is a situation or surrounding substance within which something else originates, develops, or is contained. Our matrix reality, our world as it appears to us, our universe. Our matrix our presumed physical world of which orginates the illusion, it evolves in containment of itself. Its just the way that i use to describe a separation from the Outside peering into the inside. If the Outside is in a timeless continuum, there would be no need to evolve. Everything on the inside evolves or we assume that it does. It seems to have a direction. Mind spirit and body seems to have a direction. Not sure anyone, has ever defined this correctly, the only words to do it at hand, would be knowledge perfection complexity.

I do believe that the Designer has created an encrypted code or blueprint of everything like humans now understand to be in the DNA molecule which is said to form one cell into a differentiation of cells that form our bodies. This is irreducible complexity but on a greater level, a similar code occurs in a string of letters numbering 308,504 letters long. But that is another story and this blueprint is now being studied by many scientists and cryptologists around the world. Now that we have very powerful computers, this code is slowly being revealed but only the surface of the code has been found to this point.

If this code does exist in human DNA, it would mean that in other entities less evolved there would also be a code. It would and might also mean, that when the code reaches the micro level, that this spooky partcle movement may hold a clue to why particles weight, what they do, and act the way they do.. If a design code in humans was found, this would be to humans what the four laws of nature are to physics. That seem like a long way off. Do you have a link to this research?

 

[onycho]

Originally posted by Rader

If this code does exist in human DNA, it would mean that in other entities less evolved there would also be a code. It would and might also mean, that when the code reaches the micro level, that this spooky partcle movement may hold a clue to why particles weight, what they do, and act the way they do.. If a design code in humans was found, this would be to humans what the four laws of nature are to physics. That seem like a long way off. Do you have a link to this research?

Actually this 'code of everything' does not exist in human DNA. The code exists in a combination of 26 individual letters much like the four DNA letters but forming 308,504 letters in a long string. The letters are thus placed in an infinite number of four dimensional formats so that no matter how many letters are in the width, height or depth the proximity of the letters form related clusters of significantly related historical and archeological known events. The crytography of this document is not only highly debated but many attempts have been made to debunk the methodology and mathematics have been pushlished. The fact that the code debunkers fudged the math as done with the original statistical formulas is highly enlightening.

The following site is very complex and unless you have a degree in statistical analysis, most of the material will be quite foreign to you. Included are responses to the refutations by many other scientists but the codes are very complex.

The site is very extensive:

http://www.torahcodes.co.il/