Math What are the challenges faced by disillusioned math majors in finding a job?

[StatGuy2000]

My thought is if some people are winners then some people just have to be loser. You cannot have a winner without a loser. Sometimes you just have to conceded you are loser.
Sometime your only to option is to fail and failure is the only option.

As @Dale already said, what you said above is only true for zero-sum games. But finding jobs is not a zero-sum game.

The funny thing about employment (and other areas of life) is that the more you become morose, depressed, fatalistic or pessimistic (e.g calling yourself a loser), the more it shows through in your manner (whether in your appearance, gestures, manner of speaking), and the more people are turned off by this. I don't like to use woo-woo mystical language (being naturally hostile to such things), but there is something to the saying of people giving off "negative energy".

So the key thing is to stay determined, work harder at seeking work, work to improve your interviewing techniques, and sharpen whatever skills you need for the type of job you ultimately want. It's a long game (there was a time in my life where I waited nearly a year for a job, so I know how much of a struggle it can be) but the more you try, and the more you display an optimistic attitude, the greater the probability that you will land something.

 

[atyy]

It's a long game (there was a time in my life where I waited nearly a year for a job, so I know how much of a struggle it can be) but the more you try, and the more you display an optimistic attitude, the greater the probability that you will land something.

What did you do in that year?

 

[StatGuy2000]

What did you do in that year?

I did many things during that time (admittedly this was quite a while ago, not too long after I finished my Masters degree).

I searched for work continuously, using online job forums like Monster and Workopolis (a Canadian job search website founded all the way back in 1999), as well as through networking, and attended frequent job interviews (including informational interviews).

In addition, I was reviewing my study material in statistics, and studying SAS programming on my own to become better proficient in that area (important for work in statistics).

I found that all of these activities quickly took up most of my time. It also helped that I was (at the time) living with my parents, so I didn't have to worry about rent.

 

[symbolipoint]

I found that all of these activities quickly took up most of my time. I was also helped that (at the time), I was still living

Part of what you said there seems incorrect. Maybe you can edit so the intended meaning is more understandable.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Part of what you said there seems incorrect. Maybe you can edit so the intended meaning is more understandable.

My mistake! Just fixed it now.

This is what happens when I try posting using Google on my cell!

 

[Stephen Tashi]

What gets always frightens me about data analyst is the job adverts. There are always some many little thing mango, sql, tensor flow,c++,c#. All these little requirement for jobs on indeed. I do not know what to focus on.

Different places use different software so they hope to find new employees who are likely to fit in with their current practices. I doubt you can find a software specialization that is universally in demand. However, being able to brag about some specialization is better than not showing any.

I haven't read all the messages in this thread. If you are in the USA, you should look at government jobs, especially if you can qualify to get a security clearance. Read the documentation carefully. People can qualify to be a statistician, operations research analyst, programmer etc. without having a specialist degree. You only need to document that you have taken a certain number of semester hours of relevant courses.

I think just getting good at one programming language is time consuming.

Being able to say you have experience in a programming language is very useful in getting hired. You need not claim to be good - nor mention that you are bad.

 

[symbolipoint]

Being able to say you have experience in a programming language is very useful in getting hired. You need not claim to be good - nor mention that you are bad.

The hiring principals can make their own assessment if a candidate's skills or knowledge is critical.

 

[homeylova223]

Yes I tried applying to government jobs I have done like 30 applications on USA jobs for "Statistics " and "Mathematics". Heck I even tried military but because of some issues I am not sure I can join.

Anyway tomorrow I got another interview with the community college that canceled me back in March. I chose the virtual online interview because I am worried about the whole corona virus. I hope they hire me I meet minimum qualifications but the preferred qualification is 3 year community college experience teaching full time.

I am still wondering whether to take out loans and go back to college. I am not sure If I am better off getting as SAS certification.

 

[homeylova223]

I did the interview
They asked the following
1. tell me about yourself why you want to work at a community college?
I told them I have a master in math, have 4 year tutoring/graduate assistant expirience. I want to work with student and want to teach.
2. tell us about college programming platforms you used?
I told them I used d2l and perason my mathlab to help student.
3. What role does technology have in the classroom?
4. elaborate teaching experience?
5. describe yourself as an instructor?
told them I am patient, a good communicator and empathetic toward student.
6. what are successful teacher abilities or qualities?
7. how adaptable are you to online learning?
told them I tutor online before.
8. How adaptable are you to older students?
9.how motivate a lazy student?
10. how do handle a difficult student?

It was a online virtual interview. Honestly maybe I rushed through the question a little bit because I was writing them down and it would be awkward to be silent.They told me we will let you know in one to two weeks. Which I think means they rejected me because if they were interested they would let me know in quicker time frame. I do not know I felt they were not feeling me I asked a question about technology like excel in the classroom and got a one word answer...

 

[sysprog]

Yes I tried applying to government jobs I have done like 30 applications on USA jobs for "Statistics " and "Mathematics". Heck I even tried military but because of some issues I am not sure I can join.

Anyway tomorrow I got another interview with the community college that canceled me back in March. I chose the virtual online interview because I am worried about the whole corona virus. I hope they hire me I meet minimum qualifications but the preferred qualification is 3 year community college experience teaching full time.

I am still wondering whether to take out loans and go back to college. I am not sure If I am better off getting as SAS certification.

I think that teaching technology well requires pedagogical ability, and clear understanding of principles, more than it requires extensive rote learning of a specific package.

SAS is a good package, but I wouldn't pay $180 for a test in it, let alone the tuition for a class.

I think that you'd do better to read the vendor's public documentation, and get a SAS textbook, work the exercises, and study SQL, including ODBC and stored procedures.

To get deeper into what is trendily called 'big data' processing (we used to call it 'large scale DP' but now it's much bigger), it would probably be helpful to learn some database theory and practice, including normalization to at least 2nd normal form, avoidance and handling of systematic problems, e.g. the NP-complete view serializability problem of database concurrency control, along with theory and practice of queuing, storage area networks, and multi-platform storage management.

It would also be helpful to be Unix-proficient, at least to the level of being able to write useful scripts, and able to handle security, backup and recovery, and inter-system data transfer.

 

[StatGuy2000]

They told me we will let you know in one to two weeks. Which I think means they rejected me because if they were interested they would let me know in quicker time frame.

That's not necessarily true -- companies usually take about one to two weeks to decide on a candidate. In the past, I've waited 3 weeks before finding out I was accepted for the job.

Of course, much would depend on how many people are applying for said position. Keep trying and see where it goes -- the more you apply, the more likely you would get interviews. And more the interviews, the greater probability you will be accepted for a new job.

 

[sysprog]

I did the interview
They asked the following
1. tell me about yourself why you want to work at a community college?
I told them I have a master in math, have 4 year tutoring/graduate assistant expirience. I want to work with student and want to teach.
2. tell us about college programming platforms you used?
I told them I used d2l and perason my mathlab to help student.
3. What role does technology have in the classroom?
4. elaborate teaching experience?
5. describe yourself as an instructor?
told them I am patient, a good communicator and empathetic toward student.
6. what are successful teacher abilities or qualities?
7. how adaptable are you to online learning?
told them I tutor online before.
8. How adaptable are you to older students?
9.how motivate a lazy student?
10. how do handle a difficult student?

It was a online virtual interview. Honestly maybe I rushed through the question a little bit because I was writing them down and it would be awkward to be silent.They told me we will let you know in one to two weeks. Which I think means they rejected me because if they were interested they would let me know in quicker time frame. I do not know I felt they were not feeling me I asked a question about technology like excel in the classroom and got a one word answer...

Please be sure to write a brief upbeat but not presumptuous post-interview thank-you letter to the person who interviewed you, with some interested observations that show that you have a detailed recollection of the content of the online discussion, and have a friend read it over, or if you only review it yourself, do so maybe 10 times, for appropriateness, sober (i.e not giddy) enthusiasm, and correctness, before you send it off.

 

[Locrian]

Yea it may take them a couple of weeks to finish the process and issue an offer. Alternatively, they may really prefer someone else, but that person may fall through, and then you'll get it instead. 2-3 weeks is not a long time.

My current job, from initial application to acceptance, was 6 months. That's a bit on the long side . . .

 

[Zap]

I didn't read through this entire thread, but if you are having trouble finding work, you can try the shot gun method.

Shot gun method involves spending a good amount of time perfecting your resume to fit a particular job or a narrow spectrum of jobs. After your resume is complete, all you do is apply to at least 100 jobs a day. Do not waste any time with a cover letter. Each application should take under one minute to complete. If the application is taking any longer than a minute, just move on to another.

I would also look into coding bootcamps and stuff like that, too.

I don't get why you are getting scared out of learning to code. The amount of code a data analyst or even sometimes a so called data scientist actually writes is almost a joke. To be a data analyst you only need to know Python, SQL and MS Excel. And again, the kind of code they write would not be at an engineering level.

I was interviewed for a job at a hedge fund that would have paid a crap ton of money and all they were looking for was for someone to clean data. That's it.

Software engineering is a little more challenging and from what I can tell mostly involves web development. You can get a job as a software engineer with zero experience if you create an online portfolio for yourself that showcases some projects you've made. I have a book on JavaScript that details a few projects like creating a platform game or creating your own programming language.

You should do machine learning, though.
I find the harder part of programming is the math and not the actual coding part, at least with the stuff I try to do, or what I like to do.
If I told you what I do at my job, I would say I barely do any real coding at all, and I'm a data analyst.
I code more as a hobby.

Have you looked into video game engine development? That usually requires a lot of math, if I'm not mistaken. You can buy books on this stuff, and the hard part is the math. Anytime you want to solve a problem with a computer, you have to put it into mathematical terms, which is not something anyone can do, even if they have a programming background.

 

[sysprog]

Shot gun method involves spending a good amount of time perfecting your resume to fit a particular job or a narrow spectrum of jobs. After your resume is complete, all you do is shot gun one-click apply to thousands of those jobs without even looking at the description. It doesn't matter if you're qualified or not. Do not even waste any time with a cover letter.

I think that making many job applications, without even considering, on a per-prospect basis, whether you have the requisite qualifications for the position, is inappropriately burdensome to prospective employers, and is risky for the job seeker, in that it incurs the possibility of creating a poor impression on a wealth of employers and agencies.

You can gain most of the benefit of a sweeping approach, while minimizing the risks of plastering inappropos overtures all over the job market, by registering at one or more of the job search sites, e.g. ziprecuiter.com, monster.com, or indeed.com, and they will load your email inbox with links to listings that at least roughly match your qualifications, and you can then apply only where you suppose there might be a legitimate mutual interest.

Also I think that writing a good cover letter, especially one that shows at least that you know what business the prospective employer is engaged in, is not at all a waste of your time.

 

[Zap]

I think that making many job applications, without even considering, on a per-prospect basis, whether you have the requisite qualifications for the position, is inappropriately burdensome to prospective employers, and is risky for the job seeker, in that it incurs the possibility of creating a poor impression on a wealth of employers and agencies.

You can gain most of the benefit of a sweeping approach, while minimizing the risks of plastering inappropos overtures all over the job market, by registering at one or more of the job search sites, e.g. ziprecuiter.com, monster.com, or indeed.com, and they will load your email inbox with links to listings that at least roughly match your qualifications, and you can then apply only where you suppose there might be a legitimate mutual interest.

Also I think that writing a good cover letter, especially one that shows at least that you know what business the prospective employer is engaged in, is not at all a waste of your time.

Writing a cover letter is a waste of time in the context of the shot gun method only. The idea is to apply to jobs that at least loosely match your resume using the shot gun method. This is accomplished by searching a key word in the search bar on the job board. Applying to completely random jobs that are entirely unrelated will be a poor execution of the shot gun method.

If you are not using the shotgun method, than write a good cover letter. Shotgun method can be turned off at any time.

Shot gun method will typically yield fast results to mediocre or poor opportunities, but the key word here is fast.

I actually got a software engineer interview using this method somehow. That was the one and only interview of that caliber I've ever gotten. The shotgun method relies on pure probability. I like to also call it the butterfly effect method.

To further elaborate on the cover letter controversy: if we assume 5 minutes to write a cover letter, that means you missed out on applying to 5 other jobs. Five more opportunities were sacrificed for one? You just lowered your probability of hitting the jackpot.

It's the butterfly effect method because it relies on chaos. For example, say the hiring manager also has a physics degree. He would have thrown your resume out but a mosquito lands on it. He smashes the mosquito, leaving a nasty blood trail. That blood trail highlights a few things on your resume he overlooked. He sees you also have a physics degree. He thinks to himself maybe I should give this guy a shot. If you hadn't used the shotgun method maybe you wouldn't have applied to that one job that happened to result in a mosquito landing on your resume.

This is the butterfly effect/shotgun method.

When using the shotgun method, I typically apply to jobs that do not have an option to include a cover letter. If the job mentions a cover letter or there is an option to attach a cover letter, I abandon it and move on to another. There are probably a billion jobs on the planet. Out of that billion, there might be a million or so that are loosely related to your resume. Even if you used the shotgun method 24/7 for an entire year straight, you would have only applied to a fraction of all the related jobs that are out there, which is continuously replenishing. It's like a pool of water that is being filled as you are trying to siphon it. That leads me to the refresh method.

One of my goals is to create an algorithm that can turn the shotgun method into the superluminal method to tackle a bigger chunk of all the related jobs that exist.

I'd like to note that I don't only rely on the shotgun method, but it is in my arsenal.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I just completed a hire. Step #1 was taking the obviously shotgunned applications and tossing them.

 

[Zap]

I understand the quality of your application goes down, but the point is that you are able to apply to more jobs.

I don't solely rely on shotgunning resumes, but it has gotten me interviews and even a job offer in the past. If you're super desperate for a job, it's something to try if nothing else has worked.

OP could have been looking for a job for a full year but only sent out 2 or 300 resumes.

If you ramp up to 2 to 300 resumes per day, you never know what might happen.

The job I finally managed to land seemed to have been more of a matter of luck than anything else.

By luck I mean random things, inexperience and lack of communication within the organization lead to me being hired over someone more qualified.

There are also thousands of job applications that don't want you to include a cover letter. I usually focus on these if I'm feeling like shotgunning. However, you definitely need to focus on having a good resume that targets one or a narrow spectrum of jobs.

OP's heart still breaks after getting a rejection letter, probably because he's spending 2 or 3 hours on each application and maybe hasn't truly applied to that many jobs in total. I get like ten rejection letters a day. It shouldn't feel like a knife through the heart every time.

I'm just throwing an idea out to OP in case he had never considered it. Frequency of applications makes a difference. If OP only wants to spend an hour a day looking for jobs. He can apply to 100 jobs in that hour or just a few. I'm not saying quantity is better than quality. It's just a different strategy. Maybe you could work out a nice blend of the two. I usually swap between the shotgun method and traditional methods when applying to jobs. It depends on what I'm applying to.

 

[homeylova223]

My idea would be just to go to a software company and see If can speak to a manager and tell them I have minor in cs and master in math and I am willing to work for minimum wage to get some work experience.

 

[StatGuy2000]

My idea would be just to go to a software company and see If can speak to a manager and tell them I have minor in cs and master in math and I am willing to work for minimum wage to get some work experience.

Such a strategy isn't likely to work for a number of reasons:

1. Any company has a basic idea of what an employee they plan to hire is worth. If you approach someone and say you are willing to work for minimum wage, the signal you are sending to them is that you do not have any skills. What you should have done instead was to apply to internships while you were still a student.

2. Simply telling someone you have a CS minor and a masters degree in math will not impress a manager. Such people are a dime a dozen among the applicant pool. Unless you have something that you can offer to the manager to that company, it's unlikely this will lead anywhere.

 

[homeylova223]

So what do you do then. You cannot get an internship unless you are in school or go back to school. You cannot get a job without experience but you need experience to get a job. You can do project on your own but they might not be impressive enough.
So it seems in today society unless you graduate with experience or know somebody in the industry, you are out of the job market.

[Post edited by the Mentors]

 

[Zap]

I think it's an idea worth trying. You have nothing to lose from trying. I walked into a company once, asked to talk to the manager, handed him my resume and spoke with him for a couple of minutes. I didn't end up getting the job, but I sacrificed nothing but 10 minutes by trying.

Every strategy is worth a try. I don't think it's productive to tell someone that this or that won't work. How do they benefit from that? It's not the entrepreneurial spirit most people like to see and are inspired by. Getting a job requires taking risks, thinking outside of the box and trying new things.

 

[Vanadium 50]

10. how do handle a difficult student?

Did you answer "I know a guy who knows a guy"?

 

[StatGuy2000]

So what do you do then. You cannot get an internship unless you are in school or go back to school. You cannot get a job without experience but you need experience to get a job. You can do project on your own but they might not be impressive enough.
So it seems in today society unless you graduate with experience or know somebody in the industry, you are out of the job market.

[Post edited by the Mentors]

The truth of the matter is that you are very unlucky at this stage, both due to the COVID-19 pandemic (which has resulted in various businesses closing or having reduced business, leading to record-high unemployment rates) and due to the fact that you did not pursue any internship opportunities while you were a student (I've said this repeatedly, and I will say it again -- internships should be an absolute requirement required for graduation for all STEM students).

Now enough with what has happened in the past. What next steps should you take?

The problem is that you are unemployed, like too many Americans. Which means you are facing stiff competition against any position. So you need to think of what specific things do you have that makes you stand out from others. I would suggest you make such a list. Some examples include:

1. Your programming skills? How good are they? What can you do?

2. What job experiences do you have? You stated before that you have tutoring or teaching experience. That means that you have communication skills. Work on those.

Once you have a list, then the next step is to do the following:

1. Prepare a resume and/or cover letter specifically targeting jobs you are interested in.

2. Go to LinkedIn and Indeed (or other similar job ads) and apply to as many positions that you find. I would suggest applying to as many positions as possible, anywhere in the US. Don't get too specific about job locations -- be willing to move and work anywhere. You should be applying to >100 positions.

3. At the same time, network, network, network! Find people that you know (professors, classmates, family & friends, etc.) and see if they can connect you to people, and reach out to them. Attend conferences where employers may attend (in the current pandemic, these would have to be virtual meetings, but take down any contact info of potential employers).

4. Find temp agencies or recruiting agencies and send your resume to them. In the case of temp agencies (e.g. Kelly Services), there might be short term contract jobs that could help you get immediate experience that you can use to pad out your resume.

5. Repeat steps 1-4 continuously.

Keep in mind that the process above is going to be a long process, so be prepared to keep looking for anywhere between 6 months to a year from now. But keep at it. The more you follow steps 1-5, the greater the probability that something will land.

 

[Zap]

I'm actually not doing that bad in my job search. I've got two potential jobs in the works, which have progressed from an initial interview. I still get about two, three or more rejection letters per day, but there are a few other jobs in which I've moved on in the application process but have not yet been scheduled for an interview.

It's definitely true that now is not the greatest time to be looking for jobs, but not all is doom and gloom. OP should know that it's more than possible for him to find a job, and he should not give up. I think StatGuy offered some great advice. However, I would not be closed minded to strategies you have not yet tried. It wouldn't hurt to try new strategies, in my opinion. That being said, you should definitely be doing what StateGuy has suggested congruently with whatever alternative strategy you decide to try. StatGuy said you should be applying to >100 positions. I think that number is far too low. I would suggest > 1000 positions. I'm afraid that if you only apply to 100+ jobs, you won't find one. 100+ is not that many, in my opinion. I also want to correct what I previously said and suggest to include a cover letter whenever possible, but to not spend a significant amount of time on anyone application (like hours or even days like I used to do). However, spending hours or days on your resume and cover letter which will be applied to more than one job is time well spent. You should have a good LinkedIn and Indeed profile as well, if you don't already, and start connecting with people. I've had a few recruiters reach out to me from LinkedIn and Indeed.

I think OP has a pretty good skill set. There are a good amount of jobs that value good mathematical skill. There are jobs that will look past limited programming skill in favor of programming aptitude, which comes with mathematical reasoning. Actuarial and analytic jobs are a few. There are more. I want to encourage OP to continue his hard work and to keep pushing each day harder and harder. Take care of yourself, go to the gym, try to eat healthy but keep on pushing. Every once in awhile, take a day or two off and try to enjoy life a little. You definitely provide a lot to the table. I believe in OP.

 

[Dale]

Also I think that writing a good cover letter, especially one that shows at least that you know what business the prospective employer is engaged in, is not at all a waste of your time.

When I was a hiring manager there were people that I moved to the next step in the process specifically because of their cover letter. They didn't wind up getting the job, but they did get more consideration than their resume alone warranted. So I guess you could read that as evidence either way.

 

[Dale]

I get like ten rejection letters a day. It shouldn't feel like a knife through the heart every time.

Having been on the other side of the shotgun, I don't particularly care for the approach. But this right here is good advice.

 

[homeylova223]

Applying to 100 positions a day seems like a lot. Since December 2018 I have done about 600 applications.

 

[Zap]

Applying to 100 positions a day seems like a lot. Since December 2018 I have done about 600 applications.

If done properly, you should be able to send 100 apps in roughly 2 to 4 hours (quick guess) using the controversial shotgun method previously described .LinkedIn and Indeed have quick apply features that may have not existed in times past, which allow for sending rapid fire applications. You can shoot out 50 apps in less than an hour, if you look for posts that have this feature.

I would at least add a cover letter whenever you can, though. It doesn't have to be a unique cover letter, but at least one that is good in which you can change the company name and position. I think not having one will hurt your chances, and if you're only changing the company name and position, adding one with your resume should take less than a minute or two. But this only works if your resume and cover letter are good and target very specific jobs that are high in demand. This might not work if your looking for a post doc or an actual physics position.

I recommend spending more time on positions that stand out or really interest you. I find that individual job posts usually don't stand out though, because most job posts and company websites are vague. Some of them are intentionally vague. Some are even misleading.

If I find something that stands out and piques my interest, I will take extra time with it. As long as you're open minded to new things, you won't ever run out of jobs to apply to, even if you apply to 100 per day. It's fun to just browse through 50 or 100 jobs. I'm always surprised with things that come up that I might have a chance at. Searching math or physics brings up all kinds of obscure results. I am currently targeting all things related to data science, data analytics and software engineering anywhere in the world. Software engineering is kind of a stretch, but no harm in trying.

Having a good Indeed and LinkedIn portfolio is crucial as well, in my opinion. This is a must, as far as I'm concerned. I know a lot of people who don't have Indeed or LinkedIn portfolios. I honestly don't know how they manage. I know someone who applied to 20 jobs and quit trying. What was going through his head? This is a game that we have to play, and you can't let it get you down. If you can see it as a game, you might even have some fun with it.

 

[Zap]

What drives me a little crazy is when the employer sends you a series of tests and then you get to the interview and it’s just another test, without even asking you to introduce yourself. At that point the selection process is almost entirely automated and based on your ability to solve toy problems.

 

[Helena Wells]

Have you tried applying on jobs which don't need a degree ins omething?

Since you have a degree you will most likely get the job because you have more skills than the other contenders.

Save money and then go back to college to study something different.

Also have you paid your college-loan yet?

 

[Zap]

I managed to get to an interview for something software engineering related. I realized I've spent this whole time just coding and still lack fundamental knowledge of what the code is actually doing under the hood.

I've realized that instead of just writing code, it would be a good use of time to study the well known and frequently used algorithms, data types, memory allocation and common problems encountered in computer science. Things like hash maps, hash tables, heap, stack, linked lists and arrays, I only just learned about a few days ago. I've been just coding in my own little world for the last year or two. I'm amazed I was able to write programs without having basic knowledge of fundamental software engineering concepts. I think whoever was interviewing me was also surprised.

So, my point is to not get boggled down in simply writing code and memorizing the syntax of a particular language. It's actually more important that you know and understand what you are doing with the code behind the scenes and know and understand important algorithms, their time and space complexities and where to apply them. This will help you to solve coding problems more so than simply memorizing a language. You really have to develop the ability to conceptualize and lay out a step by step solution to a problem that is optimal before writing any code.

This whole time I would just start writing code and solve the problem via trial and error, which may be the approach in some situations, but not in an interview setting. Even if you manage to solve the problem optimally by accident, the interviewer is going to be disappointed if you cannot explain to him what is going on other than what you can see with your eyes.

So, yea. Pretty much this whole time I've been worried about which language I should learn and how many lines of code I had written, but what's more important is computer science in itself. I happened to learn Python first, which I suppose allowed me to be blissfully ignorant for longer than I should have been. You should be comfortable with at least one OOP language, but don't get too comfortable and spend at least an equal amount of time studying the fundamentals of CS, which you can use to solve problems optimally and understand all of the languages.

 

[Päällikkö]

So, yea. Pretty much this whole time I've been worried about which language I should learn and how many lines of code I had written, but what's more important is computer science in itself.

Are you saying that you've been spending a year or two programming with the view of using the skill to gain employment and not once has it crossed your mind to read about what skills would be tested in a programming interview? Please go buy an interview book.

 

[homeylova223]

I managed to get to an interview for something software engineering related. I realized I've spent this whole time just coding and still lack fundamental knowledge of what the code is actually doing under the hood.

I've realized that instead of just writing code, it would be a good use of time to study the well known and frequently used algorithms, data types, memory allocation and common problems encountered in computer science. Things like hash maps, hash tables, heap, stack, linked lists and arrays, I only just learned about a few days ago. I've been just coding in my own little world for the last year or two. I'm amazed I was able to write programs without having basic knowledge of fundamental software engineering concepts. I think whoever was interviewing me was also surprised.

So, my point is to not get boggled down in simply writing code and memorizing the syntax of a particular language. It's actually more important that you know and understand what you are doing with the code behind the scenes and know and understand important algorithms, their time and space complexities and where to apply them. This will help you to solve coding problems more so than simply memorizing a language. You really have to develop the ability to conceptualize and lay out a step by step solution to a problem that is optimal before writing any code.

This whole time I would just start writing code and solve the problem via trial and error, which may be the approach in some situations, but not in an interview setting. Even if you manage to solve the problem optimally by accident, the interviewer is going to be disappointed if you cannot explain to him what is going on other than what you can see with your eyes.

So, yea. Pretty much this whole time I've been worried about which language I should learn and how many lines of code I had written, but what's more important is computer science in itself. I happened to learn Python first, which I suppose allowed me to be blissfully ignorant for longer than I should have been. You should be comfortable with at least one OOP language, but don't get too comfortable and spend at least an equal amount of time studying the fundamentals of CS, which you can use to solve problems optimally and understand all of the languages.

Are you also a math major??

 

[homeylova223]

Have you tried applying on jobs which don't need a degree ins omething?

Since you have a degree you will most likely get the job because you have more skills than the other contenders.

Save money and then go back to college to study something different.

Also have you paid your college-loan yet?

Yes I am starting a warehouse job soon. It is moving boxes not related to math. But in the meantime I think I will go back to school for operations research.

 

[Vanadium 50]

It is moving boxes not related to math.

But moving boxes is related to math!

See H. Burgiel, How To Lose At Tetris.

 

[Zap]

That's tough, man. No shame in moving boxes, but I know that has to be a difficult thing to accept. Your strength should be respected.

I honestly think you have a pretty good skill set, and I'm confident you can find a more technical job if you continue searching. I am a physics major.

I was just interviewed today not for a job but by someone who was building a product. I thought it was a job interview! He's starting a business and wanted my input as data scientist, even though I never claimed to be a data scientist. Don't know how that happened, but he seemed to be impressed with my background mixed with sympathy and offered help in the job search. I am also working with several recruiters at the moment.

I think you will have better luck applying unknown companies. For awhile, I made a mistake of only applying to companies that I knew about or were interested in. There's nothing wrong with that, but I was missing out on a whole ocean of other opportunities.

I recommend checking out revature. They will be interested in you and offer paid software engineering training. It's not a bad deal if you're just looking to get your foot into the door, but it's a two year contract that you will have to sign, and the pay for those two years is much lower than what a software engineer makes. It's around 50k. Nevertheless, I recommend doing something like that over continued schooling, because it at least guarantees a job and you are at least getting paid. There are also other programs similar to this you can look for.

Never give up, man. I may also have to temporarily work in fast food or moving boxes, as well. Just know that these jobs pay little because they are really easy. When you get that technical job, it's going to be hard, but it's totally worth doing. At least that was my impression. I was shocked by the workload I was given when I landed the first career job. But it was awesome! Too bad corona virus is a thing.

 

[homeylova223]

That's tough, man. No shame in moving boxes, but I know that has to be a difficult thing to accept. Your strength should be respected.

I honestly think you have a pretty good skill set, and I'm confident you can find a more technical job if you continue searching. I am a physics major.

I was just interviewed today not for a job but by someone who was building a product. I thought it was a job interview! He's starting a business and wanted my input as data scientist, even though I never claimed to be a data scientist. Don't know how that happened, but he seemed to be impressed with my background mixed with sympathy and offered help in the job search. I am also working with several recruiters at the moment.

I think you will have better luck applying unknown companies. For awhile, I made a mistake of only applying to companies that I knew about or were interested in. There's nothing wrong with that, but I was missing out on a whole ocean of other opportunities.

I recommend checking out revature. They will be interested in you and offer paid software engineering training. It's not a bad deal if you're just looking to get your foot into the door, but it's a two year contract that you will have to sign, and the pay for those two years is much lower than what a software engineer makes. It's around 50k. Nevertheless, I recommend doing something like that over continued schooling, because it at least guarantees a job and you are at least getting paid. There are also other programs similar to this you can look for.

Never give up, man. I may also have to temporarily work in fast food or moving boxes, as well. Just know that these jobs pay little because they are really easy. When you get that technical job, it's going to be hard, but it's totally worth doing. At least that was my impression. I was shocked by the workload I was given when I landed the first career job. But it was awesome! Too bad corona virus is a thing.

I have heard about companies like Revarture. You have to sign a 2 year contract and they offer you training and allegedly place you in a software company. The only thing that worries me about companies like that is that you are bonded labor you owe them money for the training I think its between 20,000 and 25,000 dollars and basically while they train you they pay you about the salary of working at a Wendys or Burger King. It seems too risky for me at least if you go back to school the government will not change the interest they charge you on loans while if you owe money to revarture they are a private company it just seems a bit shady to me.

 

[symbolipoint]

That's tough, man. No shame in moving boxes, but I know that has to be a difficult thing to accept. Your strength should be respected.

That can actually be an advantage. Less tough, less complicated thought while working. Later, after work, time to study.

 

[Zap]

I went through a sketchy boot camp that was a 15 thousand dollar contract. I went through it and was one of only three people who were hired. The others got kind of screwed over, but that was a really sketchy training program and many of the selected candidates just weren't super motivated. Revature is much more well known. The training period is around three months and pays basically minimum wage. Not much different from a typical internship. Afterward, you should get a job. I'm actually thinking of doing it myself. If you are forking over thousands to go back to school, though, you might as well do a 3 months boot camp instead. There's a data science boot camp I had been eyeing for the last year or so. Forgot the name, but it will pay for training and you can do it online. I already did a data science boot camp though so I'm thinking maybe it's not necessary. Don't know. Just my thoughts. I'm probably never going back to school, though. That's just my preference. I forgot how long you've been searching for a job, but if it's less than a year. I would maybe continue searching and maybe leave the returning to school thing for January, since it's always something you can do. No time constraints there. Best of luck!

 

[Zap]

That can actually be an advantage. Less tough, less complicated thought while working. Later, after work, time to study.

Yea. I was thinking the same in my current situation. The career type job I had required so much time. I was almost working 24/7, and it wasn't just moving boxes or washing dishes. I had a lot of stress and time constraints. A lot of deadlines and people to deal with. I had to be constantly thinking and trying to learn new things. I had meetings in the middle of the night. Colleagues texting at all hours of the day. I had almost no free time at all. There were days where I thought it was too much for me, but now I wish I had it back.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I have heard about companies like Revarture. You have to sign a 2 year contract and they offer you training and allegedly place you in a software company. The only thing that worries me about companies like that is that you are bonded labor you owe them money for the training I think its between 20,000 and 25,000 dollars and basically while they train you they pay you about the salary of working at a Wendys or Burger King.

Let's drill down into this a bit.

The Revarture model is essentially that they pay to train you up front, and then take the money it cost out of your salary for two years. They don't call it that, but that's how it works. It's not surprising that they take steps to keep people from getting trained and quitting.

As far as the Burger-King-salary, how much do you think someone should get paid while they are being trained and not earning money for the company?

This is clearly not for everyone - it's certainly not for me - but it could work for some people.

 

[sysprog]

In the '80s and '90s H. Ross Perot's EDS practiced that kind of despotry $-$ new employees had to sign a promissory note that made them owe $9,000 if they quit or got fired (LA Times article) $-$ and it was easy to get fired, even for such dubious reasons as off-hours deportment that wasn't quite adequately 'conservative', and the standard contract had a 3-year post-employment non-competition clause (AP News article) $-$ it was as close to an 'employee-owning' company as was practicable.

 

[Zap]

School is basically a two year contract, as well. I don't what you're expecting to make while "training" back in school. I was making below minimum wage because the funding for my GA was randomly cut. Horrible experience. I'm obviously a little bitter toward school.

 

[Zap]

I'm actually talking with revature right now. So, you train for about 3 months for minimum wage. Not the end of the world, then you will have to work for revature for two years. The first year is around 50k. The second year, you will receive a 15k salary increase. Then, after the two years, you have two years experience and can work for any company you want. With two years of software engineering experience, you will prob receive a dramatic salary increase. Surely, there are worse deals out there. I think they also offer relocation assistance. I'll prob find out more soon. It's kind of enticing me.

I'm kind of expecting to make around 50k, if I'm able to land another job. I doubt I'll be making 75k again, or any more than that. 75k was a pretty good offer. Don't know how I got that. This job I am currently praying for sounds really cool, but I sensed some hesitation with my salary expectations, which was 75k. So, pretty much anticipating a decrease in salary should I land a job.

 

[Paul Colby]

Many have written at length so if this is repeated advice, sorry. Number 1) Look for companies founded by mathematicians. Often companies will hire from pools of people of similar background. Number 2) Try aerospace. Often if you can fog a mirror and qualify for a clearance, you're in.

 

[Zap]

Another thought, people usually say to avoid start ups, because they say start ups look for expert talent. However, start ups are more likely to take chances. They may be more likely to give you a chance, even if you're not an expert. Some start ups may be in the growth phase and desperate to hire people, as well. There are some risks involved with joining a start up, but it's something I would consider.

 

[Zap]

I've run into a few job posts like this "You become an [Blank] employee from day one and are paid during the training period before placement onsite with our clients." Are you applying to entry level jobs that offer paid training such as this? The job I ended up getting put me through a 12 week paid training program.

Here is another one: "What you'll need: Bachelor's degree, a drive to learn, some experience with software or computer science, 1 month of paid training and 2 weeks of interview training. Our consultants, on average, make $120,000 after 2 years with us. We train, support, and continue to provide regular training so that you make progress in your career. Training is on-site and we will pay for airfare, housing, and you will be paid while training."

I'm sure your minor in computer science is all that would be needed to fulfill the requirements. How many of these types of training programs/jobs have you applied to?

I just found one offering 3 month fullstack development paid training program. I think it's also a two year contract, but you're not going to find paid training that's not going to have a contract along with it. The contract I signed was for 12 months after the training. I don't regret signing it. It got me a job. Usually those contracts are only broken if you quit or try to leave the job. You could just try to get fired or something if you really wanted to get out of it. I've heard of people doing that, but it sounds like an odd thing to do.

 

[Paul Colby]

There are some risks involved with joining a start up, but it's something I would consider.

I would consider that even if the startup fails (all too common) one has job experience to put on your next resume.

 

[Zap]

Starting to feel a bit defeated myself. I have an interview with Revature and for a data software engineer position next week. I'm starting to lean more and more toward the Revature thing. It seems a bit more secure during these times, and I need something relatively soon. I'm pretty confident I will be accepted into the program, if I decide to pursue it. I can see full stack dev training going a long way. Juggling job hunting with self training doesn't sound like a better alternative. I'd much rather be in a program following a curriculum making minimum wage for a short time with the high probability of a job afterward while maybe self training in a few things that interest me instead of possibly making minimum wage with no clear end in sight, job hunting and trying to focus on one of the myriad of things I could potentially teach myself that may or may not end up paying off.