Math What are the challenges faced by disillusioned math majors in finding a job?

[homeylova223]

So I have been doing research into operations research. Operations research is basically applied math. It deals creates math models to solve business problems. For example it might use graph theory to model the best way to ship products.

My question is how much coding do you need to be an operations research analyst? And what should I study to prepare for my studies. Right now I am studying probability because I am still considering doing the actuarial exams. I think probability is useful in operation research because they used markov chains.

And how good is the market for Operation researchers??

Also what programming languages are useful for an OR to know? The one I know best is java. Is studying things like insertion sort,bubble sort useful for Operation researcher?

 

[sysprog]

So I have been doing research into operations research. Operations research is basically applied math. It deals creates math models to solve business problems. For example it might use graph theory to model the best way to ship products.

My question is how much coding do you need to be an operations research analyst? And what should I study to prepare for my studies. Right now I am studying probability because I am still considering doing the actuarial exams. I think probability is useful in operation research because they used markov chains.

And how good is the market for Operation researchers??

Also what programming languages are useful for an OR to know? The one I know best is java. Is studying things like insertion sort,bubble sort useful for Operation researcher?

I think that if you're interested in Operations Research, you should look at the Simplex algorithm, and that after you learn to pivot on the tableau (singular or plural), you should also look at sensitivity analysis on the inputs.

 

[homeylova223]

Ok I will take a look at it.

Right now I just do not know what to do with my life.

I am torn between being an actuary or learning to code better or doing this master degree.

To be an actuary you have to take these hard exams and pass them. I have been studying for exam P them but I find actuary studying kind of boring.

I am also learning to code and I find coding more fun. But the only language I know is java and some java script.

The only issue is I do not have enough time to study both at times. I do not know which one I should focus more of my attention on.I do not know what path I should follow. I think actuary is more relevant to a math major than coding which is more of a cs major.

I just wonder which path would get a me a job quickest. I think passing 3 actuary exam is time consuming and maybe I could become a good coder in that time.

The only thing is I think with actuary even though I find it boring maybe it is the more secure path ( I do not really know), if I pass the actuary exam that shows I am qualified for an entry level job.

In contrast if I want to be a programmer I would have to learn several languages,libraries and tools.I think there are more software job than actuary jobs, also because there are only about 25000 actuaries in the USA.

My parents said you should study to be actuary but I do not even know if can pass those hard exams and then I would have to work at a job that I might not even like.I am in this terrible crisis of not knowing what path to chose whether to study for the actuary exam or learn to code better.

 

[Shirish]

Please don't despair. There are avenues that favour quantitative degrees like algorithmic trading, machine learning/data science and many more. I would say, to broaden your horizons the most, better learn to code - but also do your own research on various options available to people with quantitative degrees.

Google various such roles - I've specified two of them already - then search for the same roles on Linkedin, look at job descriptions and corresponding requirements. From my experience, almost all quantitative roles do require programming. Some need a high level of proficiency, like high frequency trading - and others don't need you to be experts, for example many data science roles require intermediate knowledge of Python, nothing too advanced.

You also have to identify which career stream(s) interest you the most. Don't go for something that doesn't interest you. For example, there's an exam called CFA which has 3 levels (it's for finance), but I registered for it just because of potential job prospects. It didn't actually interest me and I've lost count for how many times I fell asleep while preparing for it. Even though I did clear one level I ended up dropping out after that in pursuit of something I liked.

Again, compose yourself and do some research about all possible roles for someone of your qualification (there will be many).

 

[Locrian]

My question is how much coding do you need to be an operations research analyst? And what should I study to prepare for my studies. Right now I am studying probability because I am still considering doing the actuarial exams. I think probability is useful in operation research because they used markov chains.

I would say to be good in OR you need to be able to program, but don't need to be a programmer. However, it will depend a lot on where you end up. About 1/3rd of the folks I work with are OR. Since ultimately the product we ship is software, their coding skills have to be pretty good. Generally this is natural; I don't know any OR folks who don't like code, though I'm sure they're out there.

And yes, you need some stats to really understand operations research well. Typically the OR folks know a lot more stats than the stats folks know OR, which is a shame since every stats problem has an optimization problem embedded in it.

I'm a Fellow in the Society of Actuaries, by the way, so if you have any questions I can help with don't hesitate to let me know.

And how good is the market for Operation researchers??

It's terrible, along with everything else. Without a global pandemic, I think opportunities are generally pretty good if you're good at it and flexible.

Also what programming languages are useful for an OR to know? The one I know best is java. Is studying things like insertion sort,bubble sort useful for Operation researcher?

I think Python is a must, with Java, C++ or other compiled language being helpful but not necessary. Most solvers (e.g. CPlex, Gurobi, etc.) have api's for several languages.

 

[Locrian]

I have been studying for exam P them but I find actuary studying kind of boring.

Well, if someone told you they were thinking about training to run a marathon, but they found jogging down the street and back was really boring, what would you say to them? It's hard to describe just how trivial exam P is compared to the others, and honestly I find probability to be an interesting topic.

 

[homeylova223]

I mean I like some aspect of exam p such the discrete frequency distributions and combinations and permutations. But I find it exam P tough. Especially all those integrals and moment generating function they kind of bore me but are tough and time consuming at the same time.

I am not sure whether to continue studying to be actuary or maybe work more on programming. I guess coding is more broad and can be used in more industry, while the actuarial exams are more specialized.I guess I could study to be an actuary and learn to code at the same time.

 

[homeylova223]

What gets always frightens me about data analyst is the job adverts. There are always some many little thing mango, sql, tensor flow,c++,c#. All these little requirement for jobs on indeed. I do not know what to focus on.

I think just getting good at one programming language is time consuming. I guess I am better off focusing on data analyst than on software developer. Because people on the forum have said to be a data analyst /statistics person you need to learn stats and python and maybe you can get a job.

While with software developer you need to know several language ides and all this stuff.

 

[Locrian]

Well to be a software developer you also typically need some skill in software engineering, which is more than simply knowing how to code (and in fact software folks typically have several different versions of what I'm calling a "software engineer"). Data Scientists tend to be bad software engineers, which is one reason operationalizing ML code has become such a significant piece of the work. As far as I'm concerned, reliance on Jupyter style notebooks is a bug, not a feature.

But I agree you're having trouble figuring out what to focus on. That's partly because the area of "data analysis" is an extremely broad field. I'm pretty sure I could list between thirty and fifty skills employed in that space pretty quickly, any of which might show up on a job description.

However the jobs themselves tend to small subsets of those skills, meaning you should pick the most valuable two or three you think you could engage well with it and go. For instance, if you decided to complete a Kaggle challenge in Python, relying entirely on an AWS EC2 instance (which could be free), you'd likely leverage AWS EC2, linux, Python, pandas, scikit-learn, some statistics and machine learning all in one little project. Wrap it in Flask and provide a little UI and suddenly you're in the web development and API development arenas too.

Most importantly, just DO something.

 

[Locrian]

And go ahead and set actuarial exams aside until you have more ability to focus on them. As someone who has seen people pass and fail at them, I'm telling you now that intensity of focus and willingness to invest completely are necessary (but not sufficient) attributes. People who spend time on forums ruminating on whether they should keep taking them (rather than, you know, studying for them) are not good candidates.

 

[symbolipoint]

What gets always frightens me about data analyst is the job adverts. There are always some many little thing mango, sql, tensor flow,c++,c#. All these little requirement for jobs on indeed. I do not know what to focus on.

I think just getting good at one programming language is time consuming.

Time Consuming, but very useful.
Look for trends you find in the advertisements for those positions, and ask for advice from your educators, evaluate for yourself, and make your best choices.

 

[homeylova223]

I am frustrated with the job search right now. Still no job. I had one interview at the community college canceled, another one I got told I was good candidate but the job was canceled at the Environment protection.

Then two days ago I get a phone call saying my resume is good and this job has number crunching and they you are good fit they ask me if I am willing to relocate I say yes. This job is in the same state. Then I get a rejection letter saying this"Thank you for applying to x company.We have decided not to move ahead with your application for the role at this time. You have a strong resume, so I do believe you will be able to find another position with your knowledge and experience.

Please do not hesitate to reach out in the future if we have another role you think could be a fit for you. "

The guy told me in a phone call the manager want somebody in the exact same city. I am just frustrated with life. I wish I never went to college. Tbh they did not even want to tell me how much the job pays so maybe it was not too much of a loss.

 

[homeylova223]

How do you cope with constant rejection and being told no all the time it just wearing me down and makes me depressed. What really get me is this cycle of false hope. Where someone tell you are a good fit talks to you or make you do an interview and then tells you to bugger off. It enough to drive you insane.

 

[Dale]

How do you cope with constant rejection and being told no all the time it just wearing me down and makes me depressed. What really get me is this cycle of false hope. Where someone tell you are a good fit talks to you or make you do an interview and then tells you to bugger off. It enough to drive you insane.

It is much easier said than done, but don't take it personally. It is OK to get a whole bunch of "no"s, you only need one "yes". Your percentage is irrelevant. So don't take it personally, but do your best to get feedback and react to that feedback for the next time.

As I said, it is much easier said than done.

 

[homeylova223]

I do not know I guess some people just have to be losers if there are winners like that Ellon Musk,Steve Jobs, Bill Gates then I guess some people just have to be losers..

 

[sysprog]

I do not know I guess some people just have to be losers if there are winners like that Ellon Musk,Steve Jobs, Bill Gates then I guess some people just have to be losers..

It's much harder to win with an attitude like that. Please read The Gospel of Wealth by Andrew Carnegie. He presents some good insights.

 

[homeylova223]

Ok I will read it.

Right now I have a dilemma crossing my mind. That is whether to go the MS in Operations research. Recently I been thinking more about returning to college. And I think I would like to get an undergraduate degree in mechanical engineering with a focus on simple machines, I been reading about simple machines like lever and this seems like a career path. The only problem is I was looking at GA tech and to apply for an undergraduate degree I would not be able to start until fall of next year and that is too long to wait for me. I also do not know If I can get into a master of mechanical of engineering I did not take any engineering or physics courses in school.

I have been admitted into operation research master but I am not sure If I should do it. I mean if I have to pay I might as well pay for a degree I like.

 

[Dale]

I do not know I guess some people just have to be losers if there are winners like that Ellon Musk,Steve Jobs, Bill Gates then I guess some people just have to be losers..

None of those people’s success is improved by your difficulties finding a job.

 

[homeylova223]

My thought is if some people are winners then some people just have to be loser. You cannot have a winner without a loser. Sometimes you just have to conceded you are loser.
Sometime your only to option is to fail and failure is the only option.

Bill Gates no he success does not affect me but because I am not competing with him, but we live in a world of competition so I guess sometimes your only option is to fail...

 

[Dale]

My thought is if some people are winners then some people just have to be loser. You cannot have a winner without a loser.

That is only true for zero sum games. Neither life nor economics is a zero sum game.

 

[StatGuy2000]

My thought is if some people are winners then some people just have to be loser. You cannot have a winner without a loser. Sometimes you just have to conceded you are loser.
Sometime your only to option is to fail and failure is the only option.

As @Dale already said, what you said above is only true for zero-sum games. But finding jobs is not a zero-sum game.

The funny thing about employment (and other areas of life) is that the more you become morose, depressed, fatalistic or pessimistic (e.g calling yourself a loser), the more it shows through in your manner (whether in your appearance, gestures, manner of speaking), and the more people are turned off by this. I don't like to use woo-woo mystical language (being naturally hostile to such things), but there is something to the saying of people giving off "negative energy".

So the key thing is to stay determined, work harder at seeking work, work to improve your interviewing techniques, and sharpen whatever skills you need for the type of job you ultimately want. It's a long game (there was a time in my life where I waited nearly a year for a job, so I know how much of a struggle it can be) but the more you try, and the more you display an optimistic attitude, the greater the probability that you will land something.

 

[atyy]

It's a long game (there was a time in my life where I waited nearly a year for a job, so I know how much of a struggle it can be) but the more you try, and the more you display an optimistic attitude, the greater the probability that you will land something.

What did you do in that year?

 

[StatGuy2000]

What did you do in that year?

I did many things during that time (admittedly this was quite a while ago, not too long after I finished my Masters degree).

I searched for work continuously, using online job forums like Monster and Workopolis (a Canadian job search website founded all the way back in 1999), as well as through networking, and attended frequent job interviews (including informational interviews).

In addition, I was reviewing my study material in statistics, and studying SAS programming on my own to become better proficient in that area (important for work in statistics).

I found that all of these activities quickly took up most of my time. It also helped that I was (at the time) living with my parents, so I didn't have to worry about rent.

 

[symbolipoint]

I found that all of these activities quickly took up most of my time. I was also helped that (at the time), I was still living

Part of what you said there seems incorrect. Maybe you can edit so the intended meaning is more understandable.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Part of what you said there seems incorrect. Maybe you can edit so the intended meaning is more understandable.

My mistake! Just fixed it now.

This is what happens when I try posting using Google on my cell!

 

[Stephen Tashi]

What gets always frightens me about data analyst is the job adverts. There are always some many little thing mango, sql, tensor flow,c++,c#. All these little requirement for jobs on indeed. I do not know what to focus on.

Different places use different software so they hope to find new employees who are likely to fit in with their current practices. I doubt you can find a software specialization that is universally in demand. However, being able to brag about some specialization is better than not showing any.

I haven't read all the messages in this thread. If you are in the USA, you should look at government jobs, especially if you can qualify to get a security clearance. Read the documentation carefully. People can qualify to be a statistician, operations research analyst, programmer etc. without having a specialist degree. You only need to document that you have taken a certain number of semester hours of relevant courses.

I think just getting good at one programming language is time consuming.

Being able to say you have experience in a programming language is very useful in getting hired. You need not claim to be good - nor mention that you are bad.

 

[symbolipoint]

Being able to say you have experience in a programming language is very useful in getting hired. You need not claim to be good - nor mention that you are bad.

The hiring principals can make their own assessment if a candidate's skills or knowledge is critical.

 

[homeylova223]

Yes I tried applying to government jobs I have done like 30 applications on USA jobs for "Statistics " and "Mathematics". Heck I even tried military but because of some issues I am not sure I can join.

Anyway tomorrow I got another interview with the community college that canceled me back in March. I chose the virtual online interview because I am worried about the whole corona virus. I hope they hire me I meet minimum qualifications but the preferred qualification is 3 year community college experience teaching full time.

I am still wondering whether to take out loans and go back to college. I am not sure If I am better off getting as SAS certification.

 

[homeylova223]

I did the interview
They asked the following
1. tell me about yourself why you want to work at a community college?
I told them I have a master in math, have 4 year tutoring/graduate assistant expirience. I want to work with student and want to teach.
2. tell us about college programming platforms you used?
I told them I used d2l and perason my mathlab to help student.
3. What role does technology have in the classroom?
4. elaborate teaching experience?
5. describe yourself as an instructor?
told them I am patient, a good communicator and empathetic toward student.
6. what are successful teacher abilities or qualities?
7. how adaptable are you to online learning?
told them I tutor online before.
8. How adaptable are you to older students?
9.how motivate a lazy student?
10. how do handle a difficult student?

It was a online virtual interview. Honestly maybe I rushed through the question a little bit because I was writing them down and it would be awkward to be silent.They told me we will let you know in one to two weeks. Which I think means they rejected me because if they were interested they would let me know in quicker time frame. I do not know I felt they were not feeling me I asked a question about technology like excel in the classroom and got a one word answer...

 

[sysprog]

Yes I tried applying to government jobs I have done like 30 applications on USA jobs for "Statistics " and "Mathematics". Heck I even tried military but because of some issues I am not sure I can join.

Anyway tomorrow I got another interview with the community college that canceled me back in March. I chose the virtual online interview because I am worried about the whole corona virus. I hope they hire me I meet minimum qualifications but the preferred qualification is 3 year community college experience teaching full time.

I am still wondering whether to take out loans and go back to college. I am not sure If I am better off getting as SAS certification.

I think that teaching technology well requires pedagogical ability, and clear understanding of principles, more than it requires extensive rote learning of a specific package.

SAS is a good package, but I wouldn't pay $180 for a test in it, let alone the tuition for a class.

I think that you'd do better to read the vendor's public documentation, and get a SAS textbook, work the exercises, and study SQL, including ODBC and stored procedures.

To get deeper into what is trendily called 'big data' processing (we used to call it 'large scale DP' but now it's much bigger), it would probably be helpful to learn some database theory and practice, including normalization to at least 2nd normal form, avoidance and handling of systematic problems, e.g. the NP-complete view serializability problem of database concurrency control, along with theory and practice of queuing, storage area networks, and multi-platform storage management.

It would also be helpful to be Unix-proficient, at least to the level of being able to write useful scripts, and able to handle security, backup and recovery, and inter-system data transfer.