News What are the potential solutions for the EU refugee crisis?

[mheslep]

Caution seems to be the keyword.

For women in Cologne.

 

[jack476]

This event as described does not warrant the typical "rape investigation", which would be appropriate for an isolated or serial event. A mob of a 1000 young men is described, and many dozens of women were assaulted on one night. Other issues are involved and describing them as tangential at the outset is misleading. Rotherham is an example of what happens under such pretense.

Sure, other issues are involved because nothing happens in a vacuum, but stressing out about immigrants and refugees really just seems counterproductive, especially given that it's not yet been made clear whether these were refugees.

My point is that riots and mobs are not a new thing, and this should be dealt with like any other mob incident and the same measures should be taken to prevent it from happening again, that's what's necessary to deal with the immediate safety threat, whereas trying to deal with the problem by way of immigration policy just seems clumsy and not optimal, and really unfair to the majority of immigrants and refugees who are not criminals.

 

[mheslep]

...especially given that it's not yet been made clear whether these were refugees.

Everything report I've seen today stated the young men were either Arab or N. African.

My point is that riots and mobs are not a new thing...

That sexually assaulted some 90 women in Germany? Of course it is a new thing. This was not a window breaking riot. Why continue to mislable what has been reported?

 

[mheslep]

... really unfair to the majority of immigrants and refugees who are not criminals.

A theoretical concern. The assault on the 90 women is not theoretical.

 

[Sophia]

I used to be quite tolerant but now I'm really starting to be concerned.
Like advice people not to have fireworks so that they are not traumatised? No Christmas symbols? Leaflets about not eating in the street during Ramadan?
I don't want to be openly racist so that I don't get banned but we have had one minority in our country for more than 500 years. We did not colonise them, they came voluntarily.
They still haven't assimilated and they are a huge problem. They refuse to work, don't send their children to school and they are becoming more aggressive. I'm really afraid when I see bunch of them drunk and shouting. They will kill an old lady for a pack of cigarettes. Parents send their underage kids to steal because they can't be punished. In their culture, hurting white person is completely OK. They robbed our family shop 4 times. What's more, just one day later one of their family came asking for cigarettes for free because you know, they are in prison and don't have money. True story. This is how they think after 500 years of being here!
So after recent news I'm really afraid that the situation with refugees may be similar.
Don't get me wrong, I was born in yugoslavia and saw some horrible things. I'm against civil war and I considered becoming a Muslim for a while.
But what is happening now changed my former opinions. I don't want them in the EU.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Everything report I've seen today stated the young men were either Arab or N. African.

mheslep, you know that being "Arab" or "North African" includes groups from at least 25 countries, right? Including Turkey -- there is a large Turkish community in Germany, many of whom have been established there since the 1960s if I'm not mistaken, and certainly many Turks can be mistaken for being "Arab" or "North African" in appearance. You can't therefore conclude that somehow these young men are Syrian refugees (which you are clearly trying to link in your posts).

That sexually assaulted some 90 women in Germany? Of course it is a new thing. This was not a window breaking riot. Why continue to mislable what has been reported?

According to reports I've read, some of the suspects have been known to police for other types of crimes, which to me indicates that these are members of organized gangs involved in a range of criminal activity. Sexually assaulting 90 women is new because we're hearing about it now, but there is no link as of yet that this is in any way tied to the refugee situation.

 

[mheslep]

You can't therefore conclude that somehow these young men are Syrian refugees (which you are clearly trying to link in your posts).

So far, that's your association in this thread, not mine. So far, the reports from German officials say the attackers were "North African or Arabic"

Sexually assaulting 90 women is new because we're hearing about it now,...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...s--men-accused--nye-sexual-assaults/78304442/

German Justice Minister Heiko Maas said at the news conference. "This has never happened before, at least not in these dimensions."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046

City police chief Wolfgang Albers called it "a completely new dimension of crime". The men were of Arab or North African appearance, he said.

 

[HossamCFD]

German police rethinking tactics after Cologne sex attacks
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35248601

Similar attacks have been happening in Egypt for a long time, pretty much every Eid or other major holidays. It's disgusting and CANNOT become a frequent occurrence in Europe. There must be an appropriate response to prevent it from happening again.

Mr Jaeger also warned that anti-immigrant groups were trying to use the attacks to stir up hatred against refugees.

"What happens on the right-wing platforms and in chatrooms is at least as awful as the acts of those assaulting the women," he said.

I don't agree with this equivalence. Anti-immigration rhetoric is in my opinion a secondary concern compared to the actual physical attacks on women en mass.

 

[russ_watters]

mheslep, you know that being "Arab" or "North African" includes groups from at least 25 countries, right? Including Turkey -- there is a large Turkish community in Germany, many of whom have been established there since the 1960s if I'm not mistaken, and certainly many Turks can be mistaken for being "Arab" or "North African" in appearance. You can't therefore conclude that somehow these young men are Syrian refugees (which you are clearly trying to link in your posts).

Big caveat: until the perpetrators are caught, we can't be sure who they are.

The link I see is not to Syria specifically, it is to the general latent Islamic extremism that - borne of ISIS "sympathy" - is currently a growing problem in the West. The fear triggered in me is that this will become a new fad, similar to the random knifings.

 

[HossamCFD]

The link I see is not to Syria specifically, it is to the general latent Islamic extremism that - borne of ISIS "sympathy" - is currently a growing problem in the West.

Is this regarding the Cologne incident or just in general? Most reports of the Cologne attack described the men as drunk, hardly a sign of observant muslims, let alone extremists.

 

[jack476]

Everything report I've seen today stated the young men were either Arab or N. African.

Yes, because everyone who is "Arab or North African in appearance" is a refugee. The reports indicated that they were not recent arrivals, nor did they say anything about the nationality of the offenders.

That sexually assaulted some 90 women in Germany? Of course it is a new thing. This was not a window breaking riot. Why continue to mislable what has been reported?

So what exactly are you labeling it as, and what does the nationality of the attackers have to do with it, and how is anything to do with immigration policy and response to the refugee crisis going to prevent this from happening in the future?

A theoretical concern. The assault on the 90 women is not theoretical.

Neither is concern for the safety of people who have been displaced by civil war being put further at risk just because some people who looked like they were from a similar part of the world as the refugees turned out to be criminals.

 

[russ_watters]

I used to be quite tolerant but now I'm really starting to be concerned.
...
I don't want to be openly racist so that I don't get banned but we have had one minority in our country for more than 500 years. We did not colonise them, they came voluntarily.
They still haven't assimilated..

That may be leading us off topic, but it is worth noting that Europe only cast-off nationalism/xenophobia as standard policy/philosophy at the end of WWII. Cultures do not necessarily change that fast and pockets of such strife still often simmer to the surface. The high density of diverse populations with arbitrary borders drawn around them has been a problem for thousands of years.

In my view, part of the current problem is that Europe thought (or didn't think about?) that by erasing the borders, such issues would go away. But governments can't erase the borders people draw around themselves.

 

[russ_watters]

Is this regarding the Cologne incident or just in general?

Both, because my fear is that gang sexual assaults could become a new fad. You seemed to indicate it is somewhat common in Muslim countries, and that increases my fear that it may be exported to the West.

Most reports of the Cologne attack described the men as drunk, hardly a sign of observant muslims, let alone extremists.

My understanding is the Boston bomber was a party animal too: extremist is not necessarily equivalent to strict fundamentalist.

 

[jack476]

In my view, part of the current problem is that Europe thought (or didn't think about?) that by erasing the borders, such issues would go away. But governments can't erase the borders people draw around themselves.

Not by force, no, because people in their natural state fear the unknown and unfamiliar. But the best and only way to prevent and eliminate prejudice and bigotry is to expose people to the unknown and unfamiliar to teach them that it is not to be feared.

In an increasingly globalized world you can't just expect that there's never going to be occurrences where large numbers of people from very different backgrounds are going to have to interact with each other. Failure to properly inoculate people against the knee-jerk tendency to become anxious in the presence of unfamiliar people is how we end up unprepared to deal with things like the refugee crisis.

 

[russ_watters]

Not by force, no, because people in their natural state fear the unknown and unfamiliar. But the best and only way to prevent and eliminate prejudice and bigotry is to expose people to the unknown and unfamiliar to teach them that it is not to be feared.

In an increasingly globalized world you can't just expect that there's never going to be occurrences where large numbers of people from very different backgrounds are going to have to interact with each other. Failure to properly inoculate people against the knee-jerk tendency to become anxious in the presence of unfamiliar people is how we end up unprepared to deal with things like the refugee crisis.

Oh, I agree, my point was just that the government can't erase the borders and just assume everything will be fine. It applies in both situations:

-Europe erased the borders and then didn't know what to do when people crossed them that it didn't want.

-To Sophia's point, erasing the borders doesn't erase the borders cloistered communities draw around themselves and may stir the pot, prompting either reconciliation or lashing out.

 

[Sophia]

Thats right, things are changing now.
I think that 90% of Europeans are not racist. In my opinion, the problem is, that each attempt to discuss problems associated with migration is immediately banned as "racist". I understand this, we still bear WWII stigma. Everyone can see where even innocent accusation can eventually lead.
But on the other hand, we simply can't pretend, as authorities try to to persuade us, that there are no differences. The problem is that people of other cultures are given so many rights that they clash with our culture in many occasions. Like noisy groups of 2nd and 3rd generations of immigants leaving a horrible mess after themselves in the park. Or the slow attempts to ban European (whatever that means) culture in order not to insult them. I think everyone should be allowed to practise their culture as long as they don't suppress the other.
I have absolutely nothing against Muslim women wearing hijab, but I want to eat my fastfood in the street during Ramadan. Or should they not eat during our lent? Or why should they get apartments for free when our own young families have to live with their parents or make a debt for the rest of their lives? Why don't our homeless get free living? But now refugees will get everything. Can you see what I mean? This is not about racism at all. It's about justice and equal rights.
I absolutely do not care if their skin is purple with green dots or if they want to pray to the Chocolate Goddess. They are totally free to do so! But we have some basic standards about behaving in the public and old rule saying that my rights cannot oppress the rights of other people.
It seems that we are just so tolerant that eventually, this is going to lead to some huge problems, maybe even some kind of civil war.

 

[S.G. Janssens]

pray to the Chocolate Goddess

A divine woman made of chocolate... That might convert even me.

 

[HossamCFD]

Both, because my fear is that gang sexual assaults could become a new fad. You seemed to indicate it is somewhat common in Muslim countries, and that increases my fear that it may be exported to the West.
My understanding is the Boston bomber was a party animal too: extremist is not necessarily equivalent to strict fundamentalist.

I see what you mean. And it does seem that disentangling what's religious from what's cultural is a bit subjective. I might just be arguing semantics but IMO just because something is common in Muslim communities (and I'm not actually sure that is the case, I don't know if it's common in non-Arabic Muslim communities) is not enough to label it "Islamic Extremism". I think the action itself has to be done to further the cause of Islam in the mind of the perpetrator, which is the case for the Boston bomber but not the Cologne attacks.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Big caveat: until the perpetrators are caught, we can't be sure who they are.

The link I see is not to Syria specifically, it is to the general latent Islamic extremism that - borne of ISIS "sympathy" - is currently a growing problem in the West. The fear triggered in me is that this will become a new fad, similar to the random knifings.

I agree with you that until a proper investigation is conducted and the perpetrators are caught, we are only engaging in speculation as to who they are.

However, it is important that we not conflate Islamic extremism (more specifically with sympathy for ISIS or similar jihadist groups) and gang attacks in Cologne (of whom we only have a vague idea as to the identity of these people). These are two distinct issues.

From what I have read or heard from scholars who have studied both terrorism and about the role of religion in society more generally, Islamic extremism of the type exhibited by either ISIS/al Qaeda or their sympathizers involve violent conduct to further specific political aims, under the cover of religion (I have even read that many members of ISIS specifically or those who seek to join ISIS were often not even particularly religious to begin with). I can provide specific links from these scholars once I find them.

From what I understand of the attacks in Cologne, these events seem to be more similar to actions carried out by criminal gangs (it is not unheard of for street gangs to carry out harassment or attacks on mass on women, whether in the US or in other countries around the world). I am aware that in France, for example, those of Arab or North African descent often suffer widespread discrimination in areas like employment, housing and policing, not unlike what we witness among African Americans in the US, or among aboriginal peoples in Canada. The social consequences of such social problems are therefore apparent -- higher crime rates, higher incarceration rates, prevalence of street gangs, drug problems, etc. The situation may be similar in Germany as well.

 

[fresh_42]

Just for the record. There have been similar incidents in Hamburg, too. And the number of reported offenses in Cologne is now above 120.
To be pc doesn't solve the problem.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Just for the record. There have been similar incidents in Hamburg, too. And the number of reported offenses in Cologne is now above 120.
To be pc doesn't solve the problem.

No, "being PC" does not solve the problem, but it is also important that we know exactly what the problem is, and how to solve it. It's important that we not jump to conclusions about who the perpetrators are, and for police to vigorously investigate who are involved in such attacks and they be brought to justice, thus sending a strong signal that these actions are not to be tolerated.

Once we know who precisely are these perpetrators and their particular motivations (e.g. whether the assaults and harassment of women are part of a gang initiation, as has been observed in other countries) then we can determine what steps can be taken by the broader society on what steps can be taken to solve the problem. These steps can't be taken without working closely with Muslim communities. I believe serious people from within the Muslim communities do not tolerate these attacks any more than anyone else, and would be more than happy to contribute to solving this problem if we engage with the community without making them feel besieged or we're scapegoating an entire group of people.

 

[mheslep]

So what exactly are you labeling it as, ...

Exactly what the reports have said, a mass sexual assault, the like of which is "unheard of" in Germany, by a crowd of up to 1000 Arabic or N. African young men. At this point, I'm uninterested in whether they arrived last week or ten years ago.

 

[russ_watters]

I might just be arguing semantics but IMO just because something is common in Muslim communities (and I'm not actually sure that is the case, I don't know if it's common in non-Arabic Muslim communities) is not enough to label it "Islamic Extremism". I think the action itself has to be done to further the cause of Islam in the mind of the perpetrator...

You said this is common and tied to Islamic events ("have been happening in Egypt for a long time, pretty much every Eid or other major holidays"). I don't want to hairsplit either and I don't think there is any need to: the connection with islam is there, regardless of what its particular nature/motive is.

...which is the case for the Boston bomber but not the Cologne attacks.

With the same caveat as before (don't know for sure until they are caught), like the above, I'm not seeing a hair to be split there: whatever the specific nature of the connection is, it is.

 

[HossamCFD]

You said this is common and tied to Islamic events

Oh, just to clarify, the Eid connection is just that it's a public holiday, people go out and crowds are easier to assemble. It's the same reason why the attacks in Cologne and Hamburg happened on new year's.

 

[russ_watters]

I agree with you that until a proper investigation is conducted and the perpetrators are caught, we are only engaging in speculation as to who they are.

However, it is important that we not conflate Islamic extremism (more specifically with sympathy for ISIS or similar jihadist groups) and gang attacks in Cologne (of whom we only have a vague idea as to the identity of these people). These are two distinct issues.

Speculation, perhaps, but not idle speculation. We've been given the connection. It may turn out to be inaccurate, we have it. It's there. They are not "distinct issues" per the information we have available.

From what I have read or heard from scholars who have studied both terrorism and about the role of religion in society more generally, Islamic extremism of the type exhibited by either ISIS/al Qaeda or their sympathizers involve violent conduct to further specific political aims, under the cover of religion (I have even read that many members of ISIS specifically or those who seek to join ISIS were often not even particularly religious to begin with). I can provide specific links from these scholars once I find them.

Ok...I don't disagree, so I don't need you to provide such links (someone else may ask).

From what I understand of the attacks in Cologne, these events seem to be more similar to actions carried out by criminal gangs (it is not unheard of for street gangs to carry out harassment or attacks on mass on women, whether in the US or in other countries around the world). I am aware that in France, for example, those of Arab or North African descent often suffer widespread discrimination in areas like employment, housing and policing, not unlike what we witness among African Americans in the US, or among aboriginal peoples in Canada. The social consequences of such social problems are therefore apparent -- higher crime rates, higher incarceration rates, prevalence of street gangs, drug problems, etc. The situation may be similar in Germany as well.

"Not unheard of", sure, in broad strokes, but also not common - it's pretty rare and I've never heard of an incident that large. In either case, that's all a reasonable possibility. I'm not real clear what your point is though: are you simply claiming it may not be terrorism? I agree, it might not be. Indeed, you're the first to use the word. Not every crime done in the name of islamic extremism is necessarily terrorism.

Indeed, in some ways it would indicate an even bigger problem if the perpetrators were culturally motivated and only indirectly religiously motivated. We're seeing a problem similar to what you describe in the US: people being incited to violence based on inflated racial tensions. Mob violence where people somehow become pulled into the conflicts of others they don't even necessarily agree with inflates the problem way beyond the extremists themselves.

 

[russ_watters]

Oh, just to clarify, the Eid connection is just that it's a public holiday, people go out and crowds are easier to assemble. It's the same reason why the attacks in Cologne and Hamburg happened on new year's.

Fair enough - so it is possible that the timing is coincidental/a crime of opportunity. But the predisposition to commit the crime comes from somewhere and a mob, pretty much by definition, is a group of people that shares a common goal.

 

[HossamCFD]

Fair enough - so it is possible that the timing is coincidental/a crime of opportunity. But the predisposition to commit the crime comes from somewhere and a mob, pretty much by definition, is a group of people that shares a common goal.

No disagreement there.

 

[mheslep]

is a group of people that shares a common goal.

... that share common behaviors and values, aka a culture.

 

[fresh_42]

Fair enough - so it is possible that the timing is coincidental/a crime of opportunity. But the predisposition to commit the crime comes from somewhere and a mob, pretty much by definition, is a group of people that shares a common goal.

This crowd gathers several times a year, each year. First time something like this happened. Now tell us it has nothing to do with Muslims.

 

[mheslep]

From the Onion, or from the Mayor of Cologne?

Asked by a journalist how women could protect themselves, the Mayor said: "There’s always the possibility of keeping a certain distance of more than an arm’s length – that is to say to make sure yourself you don’t look to be too close to people who are not known to you, and to whom you don’t have a trusting relationship"

.

 

[Silicon Waffle]

From the Onion, or from the Mayor of Cologne?

.

German male population seems full of masculinity, which makes me think people there are still pretty much conservative with their military mindset of forceful management, violence, killings aka fascism.
The Mayor speech of such a rule of thumb doesn't make me think she is thoughtful enough in this case. It makes me laugh instead, something like "It rains a lot here from time to time, so I have to put on a raincoat every time I go out". The irony then is there are people who listened to and followed it.

 

[Sophia]

I don't feel that the "original Germans" are full of fascist mindset. In fact, they are trying to prove they have changed all the time. That's one of the reasons Merkel invites immigrants to Germany. To show the world they are not racist anymore.
You're right that keeping close to known people is not a solution, but until the criminals are found and punished, we can't be sure that the incidents will not happen again.
And if I was a woman in these cities, I would definitely not go out alone. I think what the mayor suggests is a reasonable safety precaution.
Maybe men can't understand how humiliating it is when a woman is confronted with stupid sexual harassment and how powerless she may be. I think that the majority of women have experienced something line that, but this time it is 100x worse than someone whistles to you.
Not being alone for a while is crucial now.

 

[HossamCFD]

Frau Merkel: Sex attackers risk deportation
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35259224

"These are repugnant criminal acts that a state, that Germany will not accept. The feeling women had in this case of being at people's mercy, without any protection, is intolerable for me personally as well.

"That's why it is important that everything that happened there will be brought to the table. We must examine again and again whether we have already done what is necessary in terms of deportations from Germany, in order to send clear signals to those who are not prepared to abide by our legal order."

Also reports that similar attacks on a smaller scale took place in Finland and Switzerland on New Years

In Finland, police said they had received reports of "widespread sexual harassment" in Helsinki on New Year's Eve.

A police official said they were tipped off that groups of asylum seekers had planned to sexually harass women and that three asylum seekers had been arrested.

"There hasn't been this kind of harassment on previous New Year's Eves or other occasions for that matter," Helsinki deputy police chief Ilkka Koskimaki told AFP news agency.

"This is a completely new phenomenon in Helsinki."

Police in the Swiss city of Zurich said about six women had reported being robbed and sexually assaulted on New Year's Eve in attacks "a little bit similar" to those in Germany.

 

[StatGuy2000]

"Not unheard of", sure, in broad strokes, but also not common - it's pretty rare and I've never heard of an incident that large. In either case, that's all a reasonable possibility. I'm not real clear what your point is though: are you simply claiming it may not be terrorism? I agree, it might not be. Indeed, you're the first to use the word. Not every crime done in the name of islamic extremism is necessarily terrorism.

Indeed, in some ways it would indicate an even bigger problem if the perpetrators were culturally motivated and only indirectly religiously motivated. We're seeing a problem similar to what you describe in the US: people being incited to violence based on inflated racial tensions. Mob violence where people somehow become pulled into the conflicts of others they don't even necessarily agree with inflates the problem way beyond the extremists themselves.

What I am stating is that the crime committed in Cologne may have nothing to do with Islamic extremism at all. As of this moment, there is no reason to suspect that the perpetrators involved had committed these assaults in the name of Islam, or were culturally motivated to commit these crimes. In fact, I am skeptical that there is any religious motivation at all -- in other news reports that I have read or heard, the perpetrators were said to harass/assault the women to distract them to rob them (stealing things like phones, purses, etc.). Which further bolsters my belief that these were criminal gangs involved. Again, we'll know once we get more details from police investigations.

I would also want to be careful not to draw too many conclusions about whether what we're specifically seeing in Cologne and Hamburg is evidence of mob violence related to inflated racial tensions or people being pulled into conflicts based on racial tensions, although I share your overall concern about such racial tensions tearing into the fabric of these societies (many European countries, including Germany, have been wrestling with these issues for years).

I guess my ultimate message is not to jump to too many conclusions, and not to draw the wrong lessons by, say for example, denying assistance to Syrian refugees (who are fleeing ISIS, by the way), or by overreacting by, say, treating every person of Muslim background with suspicion or hostility.

 

[mheslep]

... denying assistance to Syrian refugees ...

Much assistance is being given to Syrian refugees, though the only long term, effective response must eventually be to stop the causes making refugees in Syria. The relevant, practical question is how much immigration should be allowed because this event and others in Europe indicates there are costs to too much immigration, too fast.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Much assistance is being given to Syrian refugees, though the only long term, effective response must eventually be to stop the causes making refugees in Syria. The relevant, practical question is how much immigration should be allowed because this event and others in Europe indicates there are costs to too much immigration, too fast.

I agree with you that the only long true effective solution rests with the end of the Syrian Civil War (which is unlikely to be resolved any time soon). At the same time, I disagree that the relevant question is how much immigration should be allowed, because inherent in your bolded statement above is that the cause of the incidents in Europe is due to immigration alone. It isn't.

Again, there is no evidence whatsoever that Syrian refugees are responsible for the assaults in Germany or elsewhere in Europe. If the reports that is coming back indicate that the perpetrators were born in, grew up in, or lived for a long time in Germany are true, then the problem, as I see it, is a German social problem, not a problem being imported into the country. As an immigrant to Canada, I'm disturbed by the notion that immigrants are to be blamed for social ills.

In fact, I'm becoming increasingly concerned by the fear mongering and hostility towards immigrants in general (and Muslim immigrants in particular) that is increasingly being expressed in the US specifically, both in public statements in the media such as Fox News or political candidates (e.g. Trump, Cruz), or in online forums, as well as reactions coming from right-wing groups in various European countries.

 

[HossamCFD]

It seems that we're starting to learn some facts about the perpetrators
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35261359

"Of the 31 suspects whose names are known, 18 have asylum seeker status," federal interior ministry spokesman Tobias Plate told reporters.

The suspects include nine Algerians, eight Moroccans, four Syrians, five Iranians, two Germans and one each from Iraq, Serbia and the US, he said.

The attacks appear to have been more widespread across Europe than initially reported

Similar attacks to those seen in Cologne were also reported in Hamburg and in Stuttgart.

Police in several other European countries have also received complaints:

• In Finland, police said they received reports of "widespread sexual harassment" in Helsinki on New Year's Eve, which they described as "a completely new phenomenon"
• Police in the Swedish city of Kalmar have arrested two men over complaints by at least 15 women of sexual molestation
• Austrian Interior Minister Johanna Mikl-Leitner pledged that https://www.oevp.at/team/mikl-leitner/Mikl-Leitner-Null-Toleranz-fuer-Taeter-bei-sexuellen-Uebergriffen-auf-Frauen.psp towards sexual assault after complaints of attacks in the city of Salzburg
• Police in the Swiss city of Zurich said about six women had reported being robbed and sexually assaulted on New Year's Eve in attacks "a little bit similar" to those in Germany

Meanwhile, Arabs express fury and disgust on social media concerning the sexual attacks.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35251167

Facebook user Israa Ragab: "Every time I watch the TV and hear them saying the suspects could be from North Africa or Arabs I feel so ashamed and disgusted"

Deutsche Welle Arabic journalist Nahla Elhenawy: "The ugliness of our region is reaching Germany"

 

[russ_watters]

What I am stating is that the crime committed in Cologne may have nothing to do with Islamic extremism at all.

Certainly possible and we are of course certainly still speculating.

As of this moment, there is no reason to suspect that the perpetrators involved had committed these assaults in the name of Islam, or were culturally motivated to commit these crimes.

Well, we've been discussing reasons. They may be tenuous and preliminary, but they do exist.

I guess my ultimate message is not to jump to too many conclusions, and not to draw the wrong lessons by, say for example, denying assistance to Syrian refugees (who are fleeing ISIS, by the way), or by overreacting by, say, treating every person of Muslim background with suspicion or hostility.

While I largely agree, it is a tough balance between security and freedom and during the preliminary stages of an investigation even more so. I think it is a mistake to completely ignore or prohibit certain avenues of investigation.

...inherent in your bolded statement above is that the cause of the incidents in Europe is due to immigration alone. It isn't.

It doesn't have to be "alone", it just has to be a part.

Again, there is no evidence whatsoever that Syrian refugees are responsible for the assaults in Germany...

Now rendered somewhat moot because of the official announcement that many of the suspects were, in fact, Syrian and other refugees, but again, while it may have been tenuous, this story was posted in this thread for a reason: The initial report included a paraphrase from a police officer stating that some of those involved were "asylum seekers". As with overreacting/jumping the gun, let's not ignore evidence/lines of investigation we don't like.

 

[mheslep]

I agree with you that the only long true effective solution rests with the end of the Syrian Civil War (which is unlikely to be resolved any time soon).

Ending the war may not be the only solution. Creating safe zone enclaves, no-fly zones and the like, enforced by some foreign military is also a possibility. The logical choice, the EU, either doesn't have capability or the will. The current US administration has the capability but not the will.

At the same time, I disagree that the relevant question is how much immigration should be allowed, because inherent in your bolded statement above is that the cause of the incidents in Europe is due to immigration alone. It isn't

With human behavior I suspect nothing is a simple as a single cause. In this case, i) the culprits were reported as N. African and/or Arab descent and young, ii) this kind of mass assault was reported as previously unheard of in Germany, iii) though immigration has occurred peacefully for decades into the EU and US, in this case the rate has jumped a thousand fold over months which likely doesn't give the cultures time to adapt, especially given, iv) aspects of the culture of ME immigrants is apparently radically different:

“They have a completely different view of women than we do here,” Heinz Buschkowski, a prominent Social Democrat and expert on Germany’s Muslim population, told German radio Thursday. “Women who are on the street at 1 a.m. or 1:30 a.m. are considered whores and German women are generally considered fair game.”

Again, there is no evidence whatsoever that Syrian refugees are responsible for the assaults in Germany or elsewhere in Europe.

There was suggestive evidence immediately, and now there's direct evidence. From Politico / Die Welt:

BERLIN — Public fury over the sexual assault of dozens of women in Cologne on New Year’s Eve exploded into a political crisis for Angela Merkel following reports Thursday that asylum seekers were among the attackers.

Outrage over the attacks, including two alleged rapes, has been building all week but reached fever pitch after a police report describing the events revealed that asylum seekers were among the perpetrators. Authorities said previously they had no indication those behind the assaults were refugees, describing the suspects as “North African.”

“During identity checks, the vast majority could only provide their asylum-seeker registration papers,” an excerpt of the report published by Die Welt said. The paper quoted an officer who claimed the majority of the roughly 80 individuals checked were of Syrian origin. The head of federal police union confirmed in an interview with German television late Thursday that refugees were involved.

... As an immigrant to Canada, ...fear mongering and hostility ... US ... Fox News ... Trump, Cruz ...online forums... right-wing groups... European countries.

And I'm concerned about the actual mass assaults in Cologne, in the presence of 1.5 million/year asylum seekers into Germany.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Ending the war may not be the only solution. Creating safe zone enclaves, no-fly zones and the like, enforced by some foreign military is also a possibility. The logical choice, the EU, either doesn't have capability or the will. The current US administration has the capability but not the will.

Given how much the situation has degenerated in Syria, I have my doubts about whether creating safe zone enclaves is even possible at this stage (perhaps earlier on it might have made a difference, but not now, and it's naïve to think otherwise). It's also important to keep in mind the following: safe zone for whom? Currently, Syria is being torn apart by two primary forces: ISIS on the one hand, and the Baathist regime of Bashar Assad on the other. The US and the EU don't really have any real allies on the ground of significant strength who can guarantee a safe zone and who can help safe guard the safety of civilians.

And it's not as if the US is not doing anything -- the US is actively engaging in a bombing campaign against ISIS in Syria. At least as far as I can tell, the civil conflict in Syria doesn't appear any closer to resolution in spite of what the US and their allies are doing.

With human behavior I suspect nothing is a simple as a single cause. In this case, i) the culprits were reported as N. African and/or Arab descent and young, ii) this kind of mass assault was reported as previously unheard of in Germany, iii) though immigration has occurred peacefully for decades into the EU and US, in this case the rate has jumped a thousand fold over months which likely doesn't give the cultures time to adapt, especially given, iv) aspects of the culture of ME immigrants is apparently radically different:

I am not blind to the fact that many non-Western societies, including many Middle Eastern societies, have serious issues with respect to their attitudes toward the treatment of women, and that harassment of women is a problem (a problem that many among those communities have identified, and which have led to much soul searching, as have been identified in the BBC news link provided by HossamCFD). Clearly this is something that needs to be addressed, but I reiterate that such problems cannot be addressed through hostility and hatred. As I've identified earlier in the thread, we in Western societies should not react, but should act smartly.

There was suggestive evidence immediately, and now there's direct evidence. From Politico / Die Welt:

OK, I do see some early reports that some Syrian refugees may have been involved in the attacks. But out of how many?

And I'm concerned about the actual mass assaults in Cologne, in the presence of 1.5 million/year asylum seekers into Germany.

I am also concerned about the actual mass assaults. But read your line above -- 1.5 million asylum seekers. We have a certain percentage of the 1000 perpetrators who may have been Syrian, out of 1.5 million asylum seekers. That is a tiny percentage. Are you going to blame an entire group of people for the actions of a few?

As an analogy, if a gang of white men from the American South raped a black woman or lynched a black man, for example, are you going to blame the entire white American population?

 

[fresh_42]

We have a certain percentage of the 1000 perpetrators who may have been Syrian, out of 1.5 million asylum seekers. That is a tiny percentage. Are you going to blame an entire group of people for the actions of a few?

That is correct. Unluckily it doesn't falsify the equation: no refugees = no assaults.
Fact is, they lack of a justly behavior. And I don't care whether it's due to the war, their religion, their age or their missing education. Whatever.
I've seen a message of some other refugee on youtube today who bitterly complained about it because of the numbers you quoted.
He'd be one of the first who wanted those criminals to be deported. A point of view it's hard not to share.

 

[JorisL]

Fact is, they lack of a justly behavior. And I don't care whether it's due to the war, their religion, their age or their missing education.

This is anecdotal but the refugees in my hometown had to be accompanied in a local store because they kept opening packs of cookies and "taste them" before deciding they didn't want them.
Others would just drink a bottle of soda and leave the empty bottle, leaving the store empty-handed but with a full stomach.

Say what you will but this is nowhere acceptable.

Also we've had several mass fights in refugee centers because two groups (for example Iraqi's and Syrians) disagreeing about some tiny thing.
If this becomes commonplace I can see it happening that fighting results in return to home country.

 

[Vanadium 50]

OK, I do see some early reports that some Syrian refugees may have been involved in the attacks. But out of how many?

The link Russ posted says "a majority"

There is also this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...1ed4c8-b584-11e5-8abc-d09392edc612_story.html which says"Out of the 34 suspects, 21 were asylum seekers — and the majority of those, the spokesman said, arrived this past year. The 34 reportedly include 10 Algerians, 10 Moroccans, five Iranians, four Syrians, two Germans, one American, one Serbian and one Iraqi."

In looking this up, I ran across this: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/article53711815.html which has this gem: 'Mohamed T. was reported to have been carrying what appeared to be a handwritten cheat sheet for sexual intimidation. The list had phrases in Arabic translated into German. The phrases included “I want to (have sex),” “I want to kiss you,” “Big breasts,” “I have a surprise” and most chillingly “I will kill you.”'

 

[russ_watters]

I am not blind to the fact that many non-Western societies, including many Middle Eastern societies, have serious issues with respect to their attitudes toward the treatment of women, and that harassment of women is a problem (a problem that many among those communities have identified, and which have led to much soul searching, as have been identified in the BBC news link provided by HossamCFD). Clearly this is something that needs to be addressed...

Glad to hear that.

But read your line above -- 1.5 million asylum seekers. We have a certain percentage of the 1000 perpetrators who may have been Syrian, out of 1.5 million asylum seekers. That is a tiny percentage.

The exact percentage isn't very critical, it is the fact that the percentage is non-zero that is an issue to be addressed.

Are you going to blame an entire group of people for the actions of a few?

You're projecting: certainly no one here has ever suggested any such thing.

 

[Sophia]

This is anecdotal but the refugees in my hometown had to be accompanied in a local store because they kept opening packs of cookies and "taste them" before deciding they didn't want them.
Others would just drink a bottle of soda and leave the empty bottle, leaving the store empty-handed but with a full stomach.

Say what you will but this is nowhere acceptable.

Also we've had several mass fights in refugee centers because two groups (for example Iraqi's and Syrians) disagreeing about some tiny thing.
If this becomes commonplace I can see it happening that fighting results in return to home country.

I don't believe that behaviour like this is acceptable even in their home countries. They MUST know that it is against the law. This behaviour is not caused by ignorance or difference between cultures. The main cause is that they believe no one can punish them. Nothing will happen to them. So they can do whatever they want.
Now is the highest time to show them that they can bear consequences of their actions as well. And those consequences must be strict and applied to each person who acts against the law, no matter how small the matter is. Today I read in the newspaper that they shouted at the police they have to be gentle because they are refugees. One of the men allegedly claimed he was invited by Merkel so he had special privileges.
I'll tell you something. When I was 4 years old playing with my mum in front of our house, our neighbour aimed at us with a gun threatening to shoot us because we were of different nationality (civil war in yugoslavia) . And each night before I went to sleep, we would hear some strange explosions and I would ask my parents if we are going to die. They had to tell me everything is going to be OK, otherwise I would not sleep. They had to take me to the psychologist because all the people I drew were black and crying.
So yes, I do have a strong sympathy for those people. I fully understand their problems. But in the other hand, when my family came to this country, we 100% tried to fit in and to adapt to this culture. My parents worked really hard and I did my best at school, trying desperately not to cause any problems. Because we were grateful that we could stay here.
On the other hand, it seems, that many of those refugees simply feel no gratitude and do not wish to adapt to European culture and values at all. Should we really accept people like that? I don't think so. There should be some very strict mechanism that would separate those who really need help and those who refuse to change anything from their behaviour.

 

[JorisL]

I read that German are now willing to change laws, allowing them to remove the rotten fruit from the basket.
A few more of these events and they have to be really careful because there will be repercussions for the slightest altercations.

Unfortunately the good folks get a bad reputation as well.

 

[russ_watters]

The link Russ posted says "a majority"

Backing up, the link that started this in post #147 said 8 of 8 detained by a specific cop who apparently shouldn't have been talking to the media:

A policeman who was outside Cologne station during the New Year's Eve trouble told the city's Express news website that he had detained eight suspects. "They were all asylum seekers, carrying copies of their residence certificates," he said.

 

[mheslep]

... we in Western societies should not react, but should act smartly.

The usual response to crime in society via police action is limited by staff, scale, and justice concerns to the actions of a few individuals, generally not acting cooperatively. So, the odd crime or anti-social behavior can be dealt with over time either by police action or, preferably, simply by domestic societal norms taking hold. This applies equally I think to the odd mis-behaving long term resident or to the recent immigrant when immigration numbers are reasonable. Germany, acting in one sense nobly I think, has nonetheless broken that system by importing a million and half people from one area in a year. They have, in effect, imported a foreign culture as opposed to assimilating several. The usual response crafted be Western society is bound to fail due to lack of both time and manpower. Now horrible results are at hand, and misdirection or denial can only make the outcome worse.

Clearly this is something that needs to be addressed, but I reiterate that such problems cannot be addressed through hostility and hatred. As I've identified earlier in the thread,...

These are vague projections of the feelings of others, which is unhelpful to addressing the mass assault. Reiterating them as you say, is in my view an attempt via well poisoning to close any discussion about the connection of mass assaults in Germany with enormous levels of immigration. That's not going to happen.

 

[HossamCFD]

That's not going to happen.

And indeed it shouldn't happen.

It's a miserable English Saturday night and the weather is awful, so instead of going to the pub I decided to rant a bit about this.

Is the Arabic community living in Europe going to have a bad reputation as a result of this? Quite possibly, but so be it. If sharing some of the burden and the shame of these acts is the price we need to pay to have a frank discussion about them, then, speaking as an Arab, I'm happy to pay the price. First and foremost trying to be PC and censor the discussion is an insult to the actual victims of the attacks and a betrayal to the women who can become targets of similar attacks in the future. This should be the priority. Secondly, putting this behaviour under the spotlight isn't such a bad thing. It's an ugly reality that needs to be confronted, and this attention might force the Arabic community to do something about it. Arab women had to deal with this garbage for a long time. It's about time we dealt with it.

Also the damage to the reputation is not irreversible.

Is there going to be a knee-jerk reaction against the immigrants (whether recent or not)? Unlikely IMO. Also the borders will have to be tightened sooner or later regardless of these events. Europe already took more than a Million refugees in a year and it's doubtful that much more can be admitted.

 

[StatGuy2000]

These are vague projections of the feelings of others, which is unhelpful to addressing the mass assault. Reiterating them as you say, is in my view an attempt via well poisoning to close any discussion about the connection of mass assaults in Germany with enormous levels of immigration. That's not going to happen.

My quote about not reacting with hostility or hatred had nothing to do with specific responses from you or other PF forums, but about the broader rhetoric that is coming out of various places on social media, bloggers, commenters, and elsewhere. Let's keep this in context -- we have a candidate running for the Republican presidential nomination (i.e. Donald Trump) that have specifically called for the temporary ban on all Muslims in the US, and another Republican candidate (i.e. Ted Cruz) who has drafted a bill that specifically allows Syrian Christians to be allowed into the US as refugees (i.e. setting a religious test on who gets into the US). One of my many concerns (on top of the obvious concern about the safety of citizens in European countries) is that the mass assaults that have occurred there could be used as a pretext by right-wing groups to bolster support for such measures in the US, which (in the US context) are clearly bigoted, unconstitutional, and un-American.

As for your point about trying to poison any discussion connecting the mass assaults in Germany with enormous levels of immigration -- I am doing absolutely no such thing (and frankly find the very suggestion absurd). What I am doing is engaging and debating you and others about the Syrian refugee crisis, the events in Germany, and what steps should be taken to address the myriad issues that arise, in a manner that is civil, respectful but nonetheless vigorous. I feel that the General Discussion forum here is an appropriate venue to have that debate.

I do not expect everyone on this forum to agree with my views (how boring would that be), nor should I be expected to agree with you or anyone else. That's the fun of having an open discussion and debate.