News What are the potential solutions for the EU refugee crisis?

[Greg Bernhardt]

Nice map from CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/06/europe/europe-migrant-crisis/index.html

 

[William White]

Performing pilgrimage is a religious duty for muslims. It has nothing to do with Arabic solidarity or anything of the sort. Most muslims in the world aren't Arabs anyway.

so is looking after the poor, and supposedly not killing each other.

How many muslims have died at the hands of other muslims in the middle east in the past couple of years?Sure, the tiny states of Lebannon are flooded with refugees - who'd a thunk it - them being on the doorstep and all that. The rich arab states should be helping ALL of the refugess as a first safe haven. And doing EVERYTHING they can to end the trouble. But they will not.

People (with the means to do so) are leaving the middle east BECAUSE of islam. Those without the means are stuck in refugee camps whilst rich muslims look on and yawn.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

People are leaving the middle east BECAUSE of islam

This needs to be narrowed much further and the situation is infinitely more complicated than this dangerously simplistic statement.

 

[William White]

This needs to be qualified further and the situation is infinitely more complicated than this simplistic statement.

no it doesn't

warring islamic factions are tearing the place apart, as they have been doing for centuries, and as they will continue to do so.

people are leaving because of it; and many want to go to Europe to escape the stinking culture they are hoping to leave behind.

dont make something that is infinitely simple infinitely complicated.

if muslims stopped killing each other the problem would go away.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

warring islamic factions are tearing the place apart, as they have been doing for centuries, and as they will continue to do so.

Yeah and the Nazi's were killing Jews. End of story right? WW2 could be written in a one statement book right? The people fleeing are Muslim. They are not fleeing Islam. They are fleeing those who are using Islam as a tool for reasons that are much more basic human nature than religious belief.

 

[William White]

godwins law - you lose.
They are fleeing those who are using Islam as a tool for reasons that are much more basic human nature than religious belief.

Nice wishy washy excuse.

Yeah, the people fleeing are muslim - but aint it a surprise they want to go to secular countries. They are not banging on the door of Iran and Saudi Arabia. They are not heading east in Pakistan.

What happened - and what is happening - is people bending over backwards not to call out the elephant in the room - islam - and getting involved in mental gymnastics to try and think of a way of framing the problem without mentioning the problem.

 

[HossamCFD]

so is looking after the poor, and supposedly not killing each other.

How many muslims have died at the hands of other muslims in the middle east in the past couple of years?

Not sure how's that relevant to anything I said. My comment was a reply to a poster who expressed surprise that muslims perform pilgrimage even though 'Arabs don't like each other'. I was explaining that the two things aren't related.

Sure, the tiny states of Lebannon are flooded with refugees - who'd a thunk it - them being on the doorstep and all that. The rich arab states should be helping ALL of the refugess as a first safe haven. And doing EVERYTHING they can to end the trouble. But they will not.

Yes they should. And the fact they are not doing that is abhorrent. It is still helpful though to not mix the rich gulf states with entire muslim population or even Syria's Arabic neighbours.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Just a reminder to everyone to keep on topic and civil.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

What happened - and what is happening - is people bending over backwards not to call out the elephant in the room - islam - and getting involved in mental gymnastics to try and think of a way of framing the problem without mentioning the problem.

And the west wonders why we are called arrogant. Indonesia is home to the largest population of Muslims. They are having the same problems right? What's happening in the middle east is not just religious, but cultural, political, economic and some human nature.

 

[HossamCFD]

What happened - and what is happening - is people bending over backwards not to call out the elephant in the room - islam - and getting involved in mental gymnastics to try and think of a way of framing the problem without mentioning the problem.

I've hardly seen any "bending over backwards". Pretty much every post in this thread does mention Islam and muslims. If you were speaking about politicians, I don't think the Hungarian PM was being subtle about it:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/refugees-hungary-train-station-150903064140564.html
Also Slovakia decided to only accept Christian refugees
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33986738

The notion that everyone is shying from mentioning Islam and muslims is pretty much an illusion IMO.

 

[gfd43tg]

I wonder why these refugees can't go to rich Arabic nations such as Qatar, UAE, Saudi Arabia, etc. Even they won't take in fellow Muslim refugees, why should the west?

 

[HossamCFD]

Even they won't take in fellow Muslim refugees, why should the west?

Simple! Because the west cares about human rights way more than these countries. I don't think even the strongest critic of the west would hold it to the same standards as Saudi Arabia.

 

[Astronuc]

In rich Gulf Arab states, some feel shamed by refugee response
http://news.yahoo.com/rich-gulf-arab-states-feel-shamed-refugee-response-121611584.html

Some are addressing the matter in the ME.

Sultan Sooud al Qassemi, a commentator in the United Arab Emirates, said he suspected Gulf States were wary of allowing in large numbers of politically vocal Arabs who might somehow influence a traditionally passive society. But he said Gulf states should open their doors to the refugees.

I wonder why these refugees can't go to rich Arabic nations such as Qatar, UAE, Saudi Arabia, etc. Even they won't take in fellow Muslim refugees, why should the west?

I wonder if the same question was asked about the British/English concerning the Irish during the Great Famine of 1845 and 1852.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

The evolution and structure of the Middle East (and North Africa) is in part of legacy of the British Empire and European colonialism.

I'm not sure about muslim factions killing one another for centuries, particular during the Ottoman Empire, but perhaps there were conflicts much the same way European states went at each other over the centuries. But that is another topic.

The matter at hand is the refugees fleeing autocratic regimes like those of Assad in Syria and brutal groups like Daesh. Neither set reflects the tenets of Islam.

 

[OmCheeto]

2 years ago Astronuc created a thread concerning EU refugee crisis but it does not seem attract much attention.
...

A lack of response, doesn't necessarily mean that we didn't all look at it.
It's been my experience, that no one likes the idea of a flood of disgruntled "auslanders", as they think differently, and might want to turn our paradise, into their former paradise, which now, for some strange reason, is no longer a paradise.

Although a left wing liberal idiot, I'm not averse to changing my mind; "You've made your bed, you can sleep in it."

*auslander: Californians...
And sometimes closer: Molallainians...

I think Molallainians should be forced to carry green cards, and wear big M's on their clothing when entering Portlandia.
Animals.
Like bears in he woods...

Molalla is a town about 30 miles from where I live.

ps. And I'm not averse to un-friending family on Facebook either. I un-friended my own sister, on her birthday. She lives in Texas, and thinks alien thoughts.

 

[gfd43tg]

So much for "Muslim brotherhood"

It's interesting how these middle eastern people hate the west, but as soon as s**t hits the fan in their country, they come to us in droves to be saved.

Even worse, as soon as they get to the west and are all settled in, they start complaining and revert to hating the west again. How nice of them!

 

[Astronuc]

MONTEVIDEO, Uruguay (AP) — The United Nations' refugee commission expressed gratitude Wednesday that Uruguay is preparing to provide a new home for 100 children orphaned by Syria's civil war.

Senior regional UNHCR official Michelle Alfaro said there are more than 2 million Syrian refugees in all, and Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan can't handle them all, so the agency hopes to relocate 30,000 this year. Germany took 5,000 Syrian refugees last year and has agreed to take another 5,000 this year. Brazil has granted humanitarian visas to 2,000.

http://news.yahoo.com/un-applauds-uruguays-plan-syrian-refugees-205857423.html

The World's Most Humble President Just Opened His House to 100 Syrian Refugee Children
http://mic.com/articles/89809/the-w...ened-his-house-to-100-syrian-refugee-childrenSomeone's opinion - The Refugee Crisis Isn’t a ‘European Problem’
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/06/o...ugee-crisis-isnt-a-european-problem.html?_r=0

 

[HossamCFD]

these middle eastern people hate the west... How nice of them!

How very nice of you to generalise and judge an entire population!

 

[OmCheeto]

I wonder what Native Americans think of this.
Although my previous post may strike people as an attempt at being "funny", I can assure you, it was not.
This is a complex problem, and I doubt few are willing to spend the time to solve humanity's perpetual problem, all by themselves.

But that never stops me, so I googled around a bit this morning, and found the following:

Coming to America: the 5 biggest refugee groups of the last 20 years [Al Jazeera]
October 14, 2013
Out of the more than 2 million Syrian refugees, the United States has only taken in 90 since the country’s civil war began. But this statistic belies America’s generous record when it comes to refugees. Of the 22 developed countries that resettle the persecuted, the U.S. accepts more than all the others combined.
...

A tad old, but still an interesting statistic.

My previous post was somewhat motivated by my curiosity of the land mass of the USA, compared to the region in question:

I'm not very good with computers any more, so you just have to imagine the borders of the USA being overlaid upon the region in question. But I can guarantee, they are to scale.

So, hmmm..., what's my point so far? I think it's that the Americas haven't had such a long time to develop long standing neighborly animosities, so we're not used to this.

And why did I mention Native Americans?
Wiki has a list of refugees, by country, which you can sort by native:refugee ratio.
Jordan wins, at 3:1 (native:refugee)
Lebanon is #2, at 4:1
Syria is #3, 17:1 (Why the hell are people fleeing to Syria? Maybe they are old refugees? hmmmm...)
Anyways, the world has an average of 699:1
The USA has a ratio of 1215:1

The ratio of Native Americans to auslanders is 1:58. [ref: wiki and the 2010 USA census]
And that, is why I try and stay on their good side.

ps. Is it safe to assume that this thread was motivated by the image of Aylan Kurdi? It came across on one of my Facebook subscriptions. I found it odd, that none of my Facebook friends mentioned it. Well, not that odd. I didn't mention it either.

.

 

[Astronuc]

Brussels (AFP) - Germany and France would take nearly half of the 120,000 refugees to be relocated from frontline states under a plan by European Commission chief Jean-Claude Juncker, a European source said Monday.

According to Juncker's proposal for mandatory quotas for EU states which is set to be unveiled Wednesday, Germany would take 31,443 and France 24,031, to relieve the burden on Greece, Italy and Hungary, the source told AFP.

Spain would take 14,931 under the plan, the source said.

http://news.yahoo.com/germany-31-000-refugees-france-24-000-under-091323012.html

 

[blue_leaf77]

The info that has been going around the internet says that those rich middle east countries are considering the possibility of terrorist attack, the ISIS group technically has zero difficulty in smuggling some of their members among the refugees.

 

[OmCheeto]

...
Jordan wins, at 3:1 (native:refugee)
...

Amazing aerial view of a refugee camp in Jordan. (Too big for PF: 3000 x 1977)

Description embedded in the photo:

This aerial view shows the Zaatari refugee camp on Thursday, July 18, 2013 near the Jordanian city of Mafraq, some 8 kilometers (5 miles) from the Jordan-Syria border. Visiting the Zaatari refugee camp in northern Jordan, Kerry met six representatives of its 115,000 population, all of whom appealed to him to create no-fly zones and set up humanitarian safe havens inside Syria. The Obama administration has boosted assistance to the Syrian opposition but has noted grave complications and astronomic costs in enforcing no-fly zones or protecting the opposition on Syrian soil. (AP Photo/Mandel Ngan, Pool) AP10ThingsToSee

The total number of Syrian refugees is estimated to be around 4 million, or the equivalent of 35 of these camps.

 

[HossamCFD]

Jordan wins, at 3:1 (native:refugee)

The reason why Jordan tops the list is because of Palestinian not Syrian refugees. This can be a bit misleading since most "Palestinian refugees" in Jordan have full citizenship. The reason why they keep the refugee status (and pass it down two or three generations) has to do with the politics of the Arab-Israeli conflict and the so-called "right of return".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#Jordan

Syria is #3, 17:1 (Why the hell are people fleeing to Syria? Maybe they are old refugees? hmmmm...)

Most are Iraqi and Palestinian refugees. With the caveat that many Palestinian refugees are second and third generation (but in this case they don't hold citizenship like those in Jordan).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_Iraq#Syria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#Syria

 

[OmCheeto]

The reason why Jordan tops the list is because of Palestinian not Syrian refugees. This can be a bit misleading since most "Palestinian refugees" in Jordan have full citizenship. The reason why they keep the refugee status (and pass it down two or three generations) has to do with the politics of the Arab-Israeli conflict and the so-called "right of return".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#JordanMost are Iraqi and Palestinian refugees. With the caveat that many Palestinian refugees are second and third generation (but in this case they don't hold citizenship like those in Jordan).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_Iraq#Syria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#Syria

Good grief! No wonder no one commented on Astronuc's original thread.
What a mess.
hmmm...
Going back to Czcibor's original graphy link:

...One in every 122 people in the world is currently either a refugee, internally displaced or seeking asylum because the "world is a mess", according to the head of the UN’s refugee agency.
...

I'm glad I'm not the only one who had this thought.
hmmm... Since the world's population is 7 billion, a 1:122 ratio means that 57,000,000 people hold this "mess" status.
So this thread topic is simply the tip of an iceberg.

 

[mheslep]

And the west wonders why we are called arrogant.

There you are doing the same thing as WW to whom you responded: making an supported generalization from a specific case or aspect.

 

[Czcibor]

i have no idea what you are trying to say

That if contemporary elites are implementing a plan that looks like a total disaster in long run, then replacing them by a brighter ones seem reasonable and pan-European nationalism seems to look like a practical ideology.

Also Slovakia decided to only accept Christian refugees
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33986738

The notion that everyone is shying from mentioning Islam and muslims is pretty much an illusion IMO.

Poland recently accepted voluntarily 50 families with a help of an NGO - Christian ones.

 

[Czcibor]

EDIT: There is a news that one of family of Syrian refugees in Poland silently escaped to Germany during night. On internet there is medium sized outrage about rejecting our hospitality. Honestly speaking I don't mind. Germany just signed a shady deal with Russia concerning gas, so I hope that they would receive due level of EU-solidarity from Eastern Europe...

 

[Astronuc]

The migrant crisis explained - Katie Couric
https://www.yahoo.com/katiecouric/n...risis-explained-millions-of-128873741918.html

People are leaving countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, Nigeria, Kosovo, Eritrea and especially Syria. Because of nearly five years of civil war and the chaos of ISIS, some almost 12 million Syrians have been displaced. About 4 million of them have left the country, looking to Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan and now countries in Europe for shelter.

http://news.yahoo.com/asylum-in-eur...d-refugees-and-what-s-at-stake-183639355.html (also shows Couric's video)

The numbers are striking

The http://www.syriahr.com/en/2015/08/more-than-330000-people-die-while-about-13000000-wounded-and-displaced-since-the-beginning-of-syrian-revolution/ says that about 330,000 people have died since the brutal Syrian civil war began in March 2011.

An estimated 12.2 million people need humanitarian assistance in Syria, 7.6 million have been displaced internally, and four million have fled the country altogether, according to the United States Agency for International Development.

The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) says that among the 4,088,099 registered Syrian refugees who have left for neighboring countries, 1,938,999 settled in Turkey, 1,113,941 are in Lebanon, 629,266 are in Jordan and 249,463 are in Iraq. There are also 132,375 in Egypt and 24,055 in other North African countries.

So far this year, more than 300,000 refugees and migrants have sailed across the Mediterranean Sea: nearly 200,000 landing in Greece and 110,000 in Italy, according to UNHCR. This is a drastic increase over the 219,000 people who crossed the Mediterranean for the whole of last year.

The UN Human Rights Council has cited Eritrea, a northeast African country bordered by Sudan in the west, for “systematic, widespread and gross human rights violations.”

Eritrea is a mess - https://www.hrw.org/africa/Eritrea
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-13349078

A former Italian colony, Eritrea was occupied by the British in 1941. In 1952 the United Nations resolved to establish it as an autonomous entity federated with Ethiopia as a compromise between Ethiopian claims for sovereignty and Eritrean aspirations for independence. However, 10 years later the Ethiopian emperor, Haile Selassie, decided to annex it, triggering a 32-year armed struggle.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/04/21/the-anchor

 

[mheslep]

The latter countries in Couric's list show the proposed explanation is only half the story. Eritrea, Sudan, Kosovo and the like have had violent border wars and civil wars on and off for decades. The difference now is the i) EU's inability to control its borders, starting with the islands of the hobbled Greek government, ii) EU inability and US unwillingness to act sufficiently via the like of multinational military action.

 

[Astronuc]

Germany to temporarily reintroduce border controls: newspaper
http://news.yahoo.com/germany-temporarily-reintroduce-border-control-newspaper-143419657.html

BERLIN (Reuters) - The German government will temporarily reintroduce border controls in response to the refugee crisis - a move that would breach the European Union's open-borders Schengen agreement - German newspaper Bild said on Sunday.

 

[Czcibor]

Germany to temporarily reintroduce border controls: newspaper
http://news.yahoo.com/germany-temporarily-reintroduce-border-control-newspaper-143419657.html

The article that you quoted is a bit misleading. Under Schengen Zone rules, any member state is allowed to do so as an emergency and temporary solution. This law was already invoked a few times as a way to keep hooligans out from some events (football fans, left wing rioters, etc). So so far it's not a breach and more an usage of emergency powers, towards which Germans are fully entitled.