News What are the potential solutions for the EU refugee crisis?

[OmCheeto]

...
Jordan wins, at 3:1 (native:refugee)
...

Amazing aerial view of a refugee camp in Jordan. (Too big for PF: 3000 x 1977)

Description embedded in the photo:

This aerial view shows the Zaatari refugee camp on Thursday, July 18, 2013 near the Jordanian city of Mafraq, some 8 kilometers (5 miles) from the Jordan-Syria border. Visiting the Zaatari refugee camp in northern Jordan, Kerry met six representatives of its 115,000 population, all of whom appealed to him to create no-fly zones and set up humanitarian safe havens inside Syria. The Obama administration has boosted assistance to the Syrian opposition but has noted grave complications and astronomic costs in enforcing no-fly zones or protecting the opposition on Syrian soil. (AP Photo/Mandel Ngan, Pool) AP10ThingsToSee

The total number of Syrian refugees is estimated to be around 4 million, or the equivalent of 35 of these camps.

 

[HossamCFD]

Jordan wins, at 3:1 (native:refugee)

The reason why Jordan tops the list is because of Palestinian not Syrian refugees. This can be a bit misleading since most "Palestinian refugees" in Jordan have full citizenship. The reason why they keep the refugee status (and pass it down two or three generations) has to do with the politics of the Arab-Israeli conflict and the so-called "right of return".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#Jordan

Syria is #3, 17:1 (Why the hell are people fleeing to Syria? Maybe they are old refugees? hmmmm...)

Most are Iraqi and Palestinian refugees. With the caveat that many Palestinian refugees are second and third generation (but in this case they don't hold citizenship like those in Jordan).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_Iraq#Syria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#Syria

 

[OmCheeto]

The reason why Jordan tops the list is because of Palestinian not Syrian refugees. This can be a bit misleading since most "Palestinian refugees" in Jordan have full citizenship. The reason why they keep the refugee status (and pass it down two or three generations) has to do with the politics of the Arab-Israeli conflict and the so-called "right of return".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#JordanMost are Iraqi and Palestinian refugees. With the caveat that many Palestinian refugees are second and third generation (but in this case they don't hold citizenship like those in Jordan).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_Iraq#Syria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#Syria

Good grief! No wonder no one commented on Astronuc's original thread.
What a mess.
hmmm...
Going back to Czcibor's original graphy link:

...One in every 122 people in the world is currently either a refugee, internally displaced or seeking asylum because the "world is a mess", according to the head of the UN’s refugee agency.
...

I'm glad I'm not the only one who had this thought.
hmmm... Since the world's population is 7 billion, a 1:122 ratio means that 57,000,000 people hold this "mess" status.
So this thread topic is simply the tip of an iceberg.

 

[mheslep]

And the west wonders why we are called arrogant.

There you are doing the same thing as WW to whom you responded: making an supported generalization from a specific case or aspect.

 

[Czcibor]

i have no idea what you are trying to say

That if contemporary elites are implementing a plan that looks like a total disaster in long run, then replacing them by a brighter ones seem reasonable and pan-European nationalism seems to look like a practical ideology.

Also Slovakia decided to only accept Christian refugees
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33986738

The notion that everyone is shying from mentioning Islam and muslims is pretty much an illusion IMO.

Poland recently accepted voluntarily 50 families with a help of an NGO - Christian ones.

 

[Czcibor]

EDIT: There is a news that one of family of Syrian refugees in Poland silently escaped to Germany during night. On internet there is medium sized outrage about rejecting our hospitality. Honestly speaking I don't mind. Germany just signed a shady deal with Russia concerning gas, so I hope that they would receive due level of EU-solidarity from Eastern Europe...

 

[Astronuc]

The migrant crisis explained - Katie Couric
https://www.yahoo.com/katiecouric/n...risis-explained-millions-of-128873741918.html

People are leaving countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, Nigeria, Kosovo, Eritrea and especially Syria. Because of nearly five years of civil war and the chaos of ISIS, some almost 12 million Syrians have been displaced. About 4 million of them have left the country, looking to Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan and now countries in Europe for shelter.

http://news.yahoo.com/asylum-in-eur...d-refugees-and-what-s-at-stake-183639355.html (also shows Couric's video)

The numbers are striking

The http://www.syriahr.com/en/2015/08/more-than-330000-people-die-while-about-13000000-wounded-and-displaced-since-the-beginning-of-syrian-revolution/ says that about 330,000 people have died since the brutal Syrian civil war began in March 2011.

An estimated 12.2 million people need humanitarian assistance in Syria, 7.6 million have been displaced internally, and four million have fled the country altogether, according to the United States Agency for International Development.

The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) says that among the 4,088,099 registered Syrian refugees who have left for neighboring countries, 1,938,999 settled in Turkey, 1,113,941 are in Lebanon, 629,266 are in Jordan and 249,463 are in Iraq. There are also 132,375 in Egypt and 24,055 in other North African countries.

So far this year, more than 300,000 refugees and migrants have sailed across the Mediterranean Sea: nearly 200,000 landing in Greece and 110,000 in Italy, according to UNHCR. This is a drastic increase over the 219,000 people who crossed the Mediterranean for the whole of last year.

The UN Human Rights Council has cited Eritrea, a northeast African country bordered by Sudan in the west, for “systematic, widespread and gross human rights violations.”

Eritrea is a mess - https://www.hrw.org/africa/Eritrea
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-13349078

A former Italian colony, Eritrea was occupied by the British in 1941. In 1952 the United Nations resolved to establish it as an autonomous entity federated with Ethiopia as a compromise between Ethiopian claims for sovereignty and Eritrean aspirations for independence. However, 10 years later the Ethiopian emperor, Haile Selassie, decided to annex it, triggering a 32-year armed struggle.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/04/21/the-anchor

 

[mheslep]

The latter countries in Couric's list show the proposed explanation is only half the story. Eritrea, Sudan, Kosovo and the like have had violent border wars and civil wars on and off for decades. The difference now is the i) EU's inability to control its borders, starting with the islands of the hobbled Greek government, ii) EU inability and US unwillingness to act sufficiently via the like of multinational military action.

 

[Astronuc]

Germany to temporarily reintroduce border controls: newspaper
http://news.yahoo.com/germany-temporarily-reintroduce-border-control-newspaper-143419657.html

BERLIN (Reuters) - The German government will temporarily reintroduce border controls in response to the refugee crisis - a move that would breach the European Union's open-borders Schengen agreement - German newspaper Bild said on Sunday.

 

[Czcibor]

Germany to temporarily reintroduce border controls: newspaper
http://news.yahoo.com/germany-temporarily-reintroduce-border-control-newspaper-143419657.html

The article that you quoted is a bit misleading. Under Schengen Zone rules, any member state is allowed to do so as an emergency and temporary solution. This law was already invoked a few times as a way to keep hooligans out from some events (football fans, left wing rioters, etc). So so far it's not a breach and more an usage of emergency powers, towards which Germans are fully entitled.

 

[Astronuc]

The article that you quoted is a bit misleading. Under Schengen Zone rules, any member state is allowed to do so as an emergency and temporary solution. This law was already invoked a few times as a way to keep hooligans out from some events (football fans, left wing rioters, etc). So so far it's not a breach and more an usage of emergency powers, towards which Germans are fully entitled.

Thank you for the clarification. I'm not versed in the Schengen agreement, and I suspect most US journalists are not either. The article came from Reuters, but not sure if it originated in US, UK or EU state.

 

[Czcibor]

Thank you for the clarification. I'm not versed in the Schengen agreement, and I suspect most US journalists are not either. The article came from Reuters, but not sure if it originated in US, UK or EU state.

Now, when I think about it, I'm not sure how the treaty is exactly worded and to what extend this policy is officially sanctioned to which simply tolerated. There is also another nuance that presumably Americans don't realize - Schengen Zone is something different than EU. There are quite a few EU countries that are not part Schengen treaty (ex. UK, Ireland, Romania) and some non EU countries belong to Schengeg (ex. Switzerland, Norway).

 

[Vanadium 50]

Countries are allowed to exceptionally temporarily reinstate border controls.

By EU law, they have to accept refugees. When this law was passed, they were thinking a few hundred here, a few thousand there. In 2014, there were a quarter million. This was reached by mid-2015, and now the rate exceeds 100,000 per month. The question is how many can be absorbed? A million? Ten million? There are 2 million refugees in Turkey now, 2 million in other countries, and 6 million inside Syria.

The US has offered to take 10,000. That solves 0.1% of the problem.

 

[mheslep]

The US has offered to take 10,000. That solves 0.1% of the problem.

There's a good argument that taking 10,000,000 in the U.S. would also solve something like 0.1% of the problem.

 

[Astronuc]

Border-free Europe unravels as migrant crisis hits record day
http://news.yahoo.com/border-free-europe-unravels-migrant-crisis-125415743.html

Germany's surprise decision to restore border controls on Sunday had a swift domino effect, prompting neighbors to impose checks at their own frontiers as thousands of refugees pressed north and west across the continent while Hungary sealed the main informal border crossing point into the European Union.

A majority of EU interior ministers, meeting in Brussels, agreed in principle to share out 120,000 asylum seekers on top of some 40,000 distributed on a voluntary basis so far, EU president Luxembourg said. But details of the deal, to be formalized on Oct. 8, were vague with several ex-Communist central European states still rejecting mandatory quotas.

As the shockwaves rippled across Europe, Slovakia said it would impose controls on its borders with Hungary and Austria. The Netherlands announced it would make spot checks at its borders. Other EU states from Sweden to Poland said they were monitoring the situation to decide whether controls were needed.

I remember driving through Europe and not stopping at borders, probably about the time that Schengen was being discussed.

On the other hand, I had a trip to Germany, followed by visit to France. The Germans told me I didn't need a visa, so they didn't issue one. But when I got to France, I was told I needed a visa. According to the Schengen rules as I understood them, if I entered through one Schengen state, I would be given access to other Schengen states with a requisite visa. Well it didn't go that way. I found out that Australia didn't have reciprocity with France or Spain, so they required visas, although German and other Schengen states did not.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Things are less complicated now. Or at least differently complicated. The visa rules are now harmonized in the Schengen zone, so Australians no longer need visas for short term stays. ("Annex 2" is the term) But anything involving long-term residency is still kind of a mess. And that includes the refugees.

 

[Astronuc]

http://news.yahoo.com/syrian-refugee-tripped-camerawoman-arrive-spain-soccer-coach-174503268--abc-news-topstories.html#

The Syrian refugee who was tripped while holding his child by a Hungarian camerawoman has moved to Spain after a soccer coaching school offered to help his family rebuild their lives.

Osama Abdul Mohsen, and his 7-year-old son Zaid, were emotional when they were greeted at Atocha train station in Madrid by staff from the soccer school.

"I love you, I love Madrid, I love Spain, all of Spain, thank you for all (for everything). This (is) very, very important for my life,” he said, speaking to reporters on the platform.

I wish him and his son well. Peace be upon him and the hundred's of thousands of refugees. May they find safe homes.

Meanwhile in the US - What Life Is Like for Syrian Family Seeking Refuge in Kentucky
https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/what-life-is-like-for-syrian-family-seeking-refuge-129229916387.html

 

[Astronuc]

In Europe, Iraqis and Syrians escape Islamists' harsh rule
http://news.yahoo.com/europe-iraqis-syrians-escape-islamists-harsh-rule-135553860.html

MYTILENE, Greece (AP) — Among the tens of thousands fleeing war and despair in the Middle East, one group feels a special relief in reaching Europe: those who have escaped areas ruled by Islamic State extremists and the harsh scrutiny of their religious police.

These refugees tell of how a Western-style haircut, a pair of jeans or a simple interaction with the opposite sex can lead to punishment by the Hisba, the branch of enforcers carrying out a brutal interpretation of Islamic Shariah law.

 

[Vanadium 50]

one group feels a special relief in reaching Europe: those who have escaped areas ruled by Islamic State extremists and the harsh scrutiny of their religious police.

The problem - or at least one problem - is just because they think the ISIL is too strict, does not mean that they welcome western values. There may well be those who feel beheading rape victims is just too cruel - they should only be stoned. Such people will not integrate well into European society.

 

[Astronuc]

European nations shift to working together on migrant crisis
http://news.yahoo.com/concessions-europes-leaders-migrant-numbers-grow-103644697.html

STROSINCI, Croatia (AP) — Cooperation replaced confrontation Saturday among European nations as thousands of asylum-seekers streamed into Croatia in hopes of creating a new future in Western Europe.

. . . At least 10,000 arrived on Friday alone, and Croatian authorities struggled to keep up with the influx of those fleeing war and poverty in the Middle East, Africa and Asia.

It's certainly a BIG problem and is not going to be resolved soon.

This bigger problem is how to improve the situations/conditions that cause migrants/refugees to flee.

 

[OmCheeto]

...
This bigger problem is how to improve the situations/conditions that cause migrants/refugees to flee.

No problem is too big for PF!

What is wrong with the US economy?
YOU!: Fix the US Energy Crisis

Ok. So we haven't really fixed those problems...
But we have addressed some of the causes.

We need a new thread: How would you fix the World?

I have many ideas.
But, alas, Ja nie zam bog.*
I may need some help with this. ---------
*Serbski, for; "I am not god".

 

[OmCheeto]

The author of HONY announced yesterday, that he would be sharing stories of the refugees.

This is the first feed I got, just moments ago:

Humans of New York
58 mins ·
“Before leaving for Europe, I went back to Syria to see my family once more. I slept in my uncle’s barn the entire time I was there, because every day the police were knocking on my father’s door. Eventually my father told me: ‘If you stay any longer, they will find you and they will kill you.’ So I contacted a smuggler and made my way to Istanbul. I was just about to leave for Europe when I received a call from my sister. She told me that my father had been very badly beaten by police, and unless I sent 5,000 Euro for an operation, he would die. That was my money to get to Europe. But what could I do? I had no choice. Then two weeks later she called with even worse news. My brother had been killed by ISIS while he was working in an oil field. They found our address on his ID card, and they sent his head to our house, with a message: ‘Kurdish people aren’t Muslims.’ My youngest sister found my brother’s head. This was one year ago. She has not spoken a single word since.” (Kos, Greece)

(2/6)https://fbcdn-photos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-0/p526x395/12063302_1096016617139104_8485447858452696370_n.jpg?oh=d2d0b5561352632e8e431c2b305ad582&oe=569A1FF7&__gda__=1449355771_b99c5c87993cc2fbc2b9b7ccd882c5c2​

 

[Czcibor]

It seems that our (Polish) prime minister promised to take 10.000-12.000 refugees.

Sounds ok for a country of 38 mln...

However, I have an insider knowledge that our immigration offices are already clogged, and trivia cases need almost half a year to be resolved. It seems like an incoming disaster, and it would be not even a matter of money or integration, but already first step of doing basic paperwork would be to challenging for my gov.

 

[Astronuc]

immigration offices are already clogged

From what states or regions are immigrants arriving? E. Europe, former SU, . . . .?

 

[Czcibor]

From what states or regions are immigrants arriving? E. Europe, former SU, . . . .?

Eastern Europe? That's generally already the EU, no permit needed. There were mostly people from the former SU, especially Ukraine. Also, quite many of foreign students.

It didn't look so far as a flood, but I had more an impression of office that has the same amount of staff, but maybe 50% (guess) more people to deal with and the same paranoiac procedures, which no one would dare to openly ignore. So queues are growing.

 

[Astronuc]

Eastern Europe? That's generally already the EU, no permit needed.

When I mentioned E. Europe, I was thinking more along the lines of the SE Europe as in Moldova, Romania, the Balkans, . . . , but I was wondering if folks were also coming from ME and Africa, . . . .

It didn't look so far as a flood, but I had more an impression of office that has the same amount of staff, but maybe 50% (guess) more people to deal with and the same paranoiac procedures, which no one would dare to openly ignore. So queues are growing.

I figured that was the case.

 

[HossamCFD]

...with a message: ‘Kurdish people aren’t Muslims.’

They should say that to Saladin. Or better yet, the 13th century Kurdish islamic theologian Ibn Taymiyyah who was so prominent that he was called the 'Sheikh of Islam'. Many see his work as the basis for all modern Wahabism and Jihadism.

 

[Tosh5457]

I'm happy to receive them in my country, but with strict control on those communities to make sure any terrorism plotting from ISIS soldiers, who inevitably come together with the good ones, gets uncovered. I'd also make sure the building of mosques got prohibited like in Switzerland, to show them that since they're in Europe, either they adapt or don't stay.

 

[OmCheeto]

They should say that to Saladin. Or better yet, the 13th century Kurdish islamic theologian Ibn Taymiyyah who was so prominent that he was called the 'Sheikh of Islam'. Many see his work as the basis for all modern Wahabism and Jihadism.

I doubt any sane person cares what ISIS thinks.

But I should clarify something I said earlier, as it strikes me as a cold, overly broad statement; "Although a left wing liberal idiot, I'm not averse to changing my mind; "You've made your bed, you can sleep in it.""

This was based mostly on the info-graphic contained in one of Czcibor's intro-links:

As far as I can tell, a significant quantitative part of the problem seems to originate from the Balkans: Kosovo, Albania, & Serbia, whose sole problem at the moment, appears to be unemployment.

Although unemployment is a very big problem, it hardly qualifies you for "refugee" status.
[IMHO]
It almost looks like they are taking advantage of the situation.
[/IMHO]ps. In the future, if I should make any "what the ... ?" statements, please don't hesitate to question me about it, as I seldom elucidate half of what I'm thinking.

Kind of like, um, right now.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I'd also make sure the building of mosques got prohibited like in Switzerland

Switzerland did not ban mosques. They banned new construction of minarets (through popular referendum, opposed by the government - an odd quirk of Swiss law). The history behind this is complex, and this probably shouldn't be taken entirely at face value.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I'm happy to receive them in my country, but with strict control on those communities to make sure any terrorism plotting from ISIS soldiers, who inevitably come together with the good ones, gets uncovered. I'd also make sure the building of mosques got prohibited like in Switzerland, to show them that since they're in Europe, either they adapt or don't stay.

So you are advocating prohibiting these refugees from practicing their religion? If the refugees were, say, members of the Syrian Orthodox Church (as no doubt many of the refugees are), would you advocate a prohibition on the building of a new church?

I find it astounding to me the degree of hatred and suspicion that is leveled against Muslims. Keep in mind that these refugees are fleeing the brutality of both ISIS/ISIL and the Assad regime. The likelihood that these refugees represent some kind of "fifth column" of IS agents intent on destroying Europe reeks of both racism and paranoia. And I would like to note that Muslims are a diverse group of people, and the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not terrorists, nor do they have any desire whatsoever to commit acts of violence against others.

Now before I get accused of being an apologist for Islam, I am an agnostic with a bias towards atheism who rejects all organized religions and have criticized all religions, including Islam. At the same time, I have personally known many people who are either practicing Muslims or come from Muslim religious backgrounds -- people I consider to be my good friends -- and they are no different than any of my other friends, among whom include Christians of various denominations, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Parsis, and also those who reject all traditional organized religions like myself.

 

[StatGuy2000]

The problem - or at least one problem - is just because they think the ISIL is too strict, does not mean that they welcome western values. There may well be those who feel beheading rape victims is just too cruel - they should only be stoned. Such people will not integrate well into European society.

Vanadium 50, your post above is implying a default assumption that Syrian refugees will not integrate well into European society. But is that necessarily a warranted assumption, given that refugees fleeing desolation from their home countries may be motivated to want to rebuild their lives and integrate to their new countries if permitted to do so by the said countries?

The bolded statement is important to consider, given that many European countries have often had a difficult time grappling with immigration. It makes me wonder if Syrian refugees may better integrate in countries founded on immigration and a long history of immigration (e.g. Canada, US, Australia)

 

[Czcibor]

Vanadium 50, your post above is implying a default assumption that Syrian refugees will not integrate well into European society. But is that necessarily a warranted assumption, given that refugees fleeing desolation from their home countries may be motivated to want to rebuild their lives and integrate to their new countries if permitted to do so by the said countries.

The bolded statement is important to consider, given that many European countries have often had a difficult time grappling with immigration. It makes me wonder if Syrian refugees may better integrate in countries founded on immigration and a long history of immigration (e.g. Canada, US, Australia)

Should he use assumption based on prior experience (I'm especially worried about riots in Sweden - they have one of the top organized gov, assuming being much better than them should presumably be classified as hubris) or maybe based on ideologically believes that this time everything would work perfectly?

Why are you astonished? I mean local population has to finance serious safety net spending (for decades, there is problem of still higher unemployment rate among second generations) and in exchange get boost in crime rate. I don't think that suggestion than in Marseile is not so bad because it is just gang violence and not terrorism is so reassuring:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...most-dangerous-place-to-be-young-8166738.html
(Muslim are there roughly 1/3rd of population, pending on source)

For me the reaction of population seem very rational. Even if we treat that London bombing of 2005 was done by a person granted asylum as one time event.

I'd add to it that the human wave caused Germans to reached a conclusion that their gov lost control over situation. That neither increases chances for integration nor boost enthusiasm.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Should he use assumption based on prior experience (I'm especially worried about riots in Sweden - they have one of the top organized gov, assuming being much better than them should presumably be classified as hubris) or maybe based on ideologically believes that this time everything would work perfectly?

Why are you astonished? I mean local population has to finance serious safety net spending (for decades, there is problem of still higher unemployment rate among second generations) and in exchange get boost in crime rate. I don't think that suggestion than in Marseile is not so bad because it is just gang violence and not terrorism is so reassuring:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...most-dangerous-place-to-be-young-8166738.html
(Muslim are there roughly 1/3rd of population, pending on source)

For me the reaction of population seem very rational. Even if we treat that London bombing of 2005 was done by a person granted asylum as one time event.

I'd add to it that the human wave caused Germans to reached a conclusion that their gov lost control over situation. That neither increases chances for integration nor boost enthusiasm.

What you fail to take into account is that the problems facing higher unemployment rate, crime rate, and gang violence you point out is at least partially the result of the systemic racism and intolerance that is entrenched within European countries, who view immigrants in a hostile light and often refuse to allow for the integration that you speak of. Had the public been more open to accepting of new immigrants or second generation residents as fellow nationals, and had the governments done more to financially integrate immigrants into the national fold, both economically and socially, it is fair to say that much of the social problem you speak of would be lessened.

I am from Canada, which currently has among the highest levels of immigration in the world, often from non-Western countries. While I will candidly admit that Canada has its problems with respect to immigrants, in general the country has succeeded in integrating its immigrants into the national fabric with considerable ease. Canada also has a history of welcoming large numbers of refugees who have subsequently become very successful in this country (Ismaili Muslims of Indian descent from Uganda who were expelled from the country during the 1970s and 1980s, Vietnamese boat people during the same time are just a few examples). My hope is that the election of a new Prime Minister will follow through on his promise to provide assistance and help to these refugees, who I see can make tremendous contributions to my country.

 

[S.G. Janssens]

My hope is that the election of a new Prime Minister will follow through on his promise to provide assistance and help to these refugees

If I'm not mistaken, one of the new prime minister's first acts was to withdraw Canada from the military coalition against ISIS.

 

[mheslep]

I am from Canada, which currently has among the highest levels of immigration in the world...

Roughly the same immigration rate as its southern neighbor the US BTW (~1.5 million per year with ~1 million legal and ~0.5 million illegal)
http://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/ois_lpr_fr_2013.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Breakdown_by_state

 

[StatGuy2000]

Roughly the same immigration rate as its southern neighbor the US BTW (~1.5 million per year with ~1 million legal and ~0.5 million illegal)
http://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/ois_lpr_fr_2013.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Breakdown_by_state

Notice that I stated among the highest in the Western world, not the highest. Also I should have clarified that immigration rate on a per capital basis (i.e. based on percentage of the population).

 

[StatGuy2000]

If I'm not mistaken, one of the new prime minister's first acts was to withdraw Canada from the military coalition against ISIS.

More specifically, to end Canada's participation in the use of bombing campaigns by our pilots specifically in Syria. It's worth pointing out that Canada's actual military participation in the military coalition against ISIS in Syria is minimal at best (according to one news source, out of the 119 coalition air strikes in Syria as of Sept 4, 2015, Canada has participated in just 4 of these since Canada's mission had expanded to that country back in March).

http://globalnews.ca/news/2204836/i...-has-participated-in-4-airstrikes-over-syria/

And it's worth keeping in mind how effective these bombing campaigns have been in actually stopping IS's progress in either Syria or Iraq.

 

[mheslep]

how effective these bombing campaigns have been in actually stopping IS's progress in either Syria or Iraq.

Which is? By contrast, how effective will doing nothing be?

 

[StatGuy2000]

Which is? By contrast, how effective will doing nothing be?

That is a straw man argument, because you seem to be arguing that "we" (as in we in the Western world) ought to do nothing, an argument which I am not making.

I should also point out that your reply is implicitly making the assumption that the only 2 options that Western countries like the US and Canada have available are: (a) carry out bombing campaign, or (b) do nothing. There are other options that are possible (e.g. supplying arms and tactical or intelligence support to the secular opponents of IS like the Free Syrian Army, sending ground troops to Syria under a coalition framework, hash out diplomatic solution with Assad and the Free Syrian Army or other opponents of his regime who are not aligned with IS).

And I don't think it is at all improper to question whether the current strategy that the US and their coalition partners are performing are actually making a real impact in defeating or eliminating IS as a threat to the region. Nor do I think it is improper for the new Canadian PM to make a decision that the (limited) resources available militarily in Canada should best be deployed in areas outside of bombing missions.

 

[mheslep]

I should also point out that your reply is implicitly making the assumption that the only 2 options that Western countries like the US and Canada have available are: (a) carry out bombing campaign, or (b) do nothing. ...

Not at all. There are many options. At the moment, Canada however chooses to do nothing.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Not at all. There are many options. At the moment, Canada however chooses to do nothing.

And given our overall military contribution to the ISIS mission is insignificant and irrelevant in material impact (let's face the fact here -- it is the US who is leading this mission, and it is the US military who is having the most impact), I personally feel that ending our contribution to the bombing mission, with a goal to refocusing where Canada can make the most meaningful contribution, is a wise decision. Canada is not a military superpower and I don't think any of us should pretend that it is (like previous PM Harper, at least IMHO).

I think the US president, the Pentagon, the State Department, and others all recognize this, hence the muted response so far to the announcement of Canada's end to direct military engagement in the fight against IS.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Vanadium 50, your post above is implying a default assumption that Syrian refugees will not integrate well into European society.

I don't think I am. I am saying there is a continuum between "fleeing ISIS" and "will integrate well" rather than a binary choice.

 

[HossamCFD]

Slightly surprised at the renewed interest in this topic.

I would say it's wishful thinking and perhaps even unreasonable to expect this wave of refugees to integrate well without challenges. There are many problems and actually only few of them have to do with the fact that most refugees are muslim. Langauge for a start is a massive barrier to integration in any non-English speaking country for anyone older than say 10 years old (good luck learning Hungarian). There's also the fact that when a lot of people migrate together from one place they tend to form exclusive communities which doesn't really help. There's the economical situation and there are also of course a lot of cultural differences some of them are related to Islam and some are not. I have to say that discussing the refugees issue only through the muslim lens, as if that's the one word that tells you everything you need to know about them, is quite oversimplified and strike me as a bit bizarre to be honest.

I don't think that suggestion than in Marseile is not so bad because it is just gang violence and not terrorism is so reassuring:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...most-dangerous-place-to-be-young-8166738.html
(Muslim are there roughly 1/3rd of population, pending on source)

I'd say that's an example of one of the serious problems that has very little, if anything at all, to do with them being muslim.

 

[S.G. Janssens]

There are many problems and actually only few of them have to do with the fact that most refugees are muslim.

I'm not sure. I would really prefer to be able to wholeheartedly agree with you, and I could do that based on most of my personal experiences with muslims, which would likely include you.

However, firstly I find myself still living in rather privileged conditions (i.e. not in one of the socially weak neighbourhoods of some larger European cities, where it has often become "undesirable" for two men to walk holding hands or for girls to wear a tiny skirt). Secondly, it is increasingly dangerous to openly criticize or ridicule Islam here, see the cartoon affair in Denmark, the brutal attacks in France, the murder of a director and the necessity for permanent security for anti-islam representatives in The Netherlands. I fear that a large influx of muslim immigrants (moderate or otherwise) will not improve this situation.

I was born and live in a country that has a history of tolerance towards different religions and deviating views, but also towards irony, ridicule and blasphemy. I would like it to stay that way.

EDIT: Mention of the murder of a Dutch film director added.

 

[mheslep]

...I have to say that discussing the refugees issue only through the muslim lens, as if that's the one word that tells you everything you need to know about them, is quite oversimplified and strike me as a bit bizarre to be honest.

I'd say that's an example of one of the serious problems that has very little, if anything at all, to do with them being Muslim.

Religious identification in the case of Muslims, especially those coming out of the Middle East, has high correlation with views that are utterly antithetical to those of western culture. See the Pew poll. Favor Sharia as the law of the land: over half; religious judges decide family / property disputes: over half; whippings/cutting off hands for theft: over half; stoning as punishment for adultery: over half; death penalty for leaving Islam: over half. Mix these widely held views with a European culture that seems to have a decreasing sense of itself and trouble is likely in my view.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...ligion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

With a European history that includes the like of The Thirty Years War and the Nazi persecutions, a strong skepticism for group identification by religion is understandable, perhaps to be applauded. But to extend that skepticism to the point of outright rejection of any discussion of the common viewpoints of Middle Eastern Muslims; it is that which leaves skepticism and enters the bizarre.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Religious identification in the case of Muslims, especially those coming out of the Middle East, has high correlation with views that are utterly antithetical to those of western culture. See the Pew poll. Favor Sharia as the law of the land: over half; religious judges decide family / property disputes: over half; whippings/cutting off hands for theft: over half; stoning as punishment for adultery: over half; death penalty for leaving Islam: over half. Mix these widely held views with a European culture that seems to have a decreasing sense of itself and trouble is likely in my view.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...ligion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

With a European history that includes the like of The Thirty Years War and the Nazi persecutions, a strong skepticism for group identification by religion is understandable, perhaps to be applauded. But to extend that skepticism to the point of outright rejection of any discussion of the common viewpoints of Middle Eastern Muslims; it is that which leaves skepticism and enters the bizarre.

It is worth noting that the Pew poll you quoted does not include Syria, but does include Muslim respondents from Lebanon, a country which shares very close cultural and historical ties to Syria. So if we look at the Lebanese Muslim respondents as a surrogate for how Syrian Muslims may respond, we find the following:

1. 38% respond that Sharia is developed by man (the highest proportion in all countries where Muslim respondents were polled), versus 49% say it is the revealed word of God (the lowest proportion in all countries where Muslim respondents were polled). That leaves 13% who did not express an opinion.

2. Only 29% of Lebanese Muslim respondents favor making Sharia the official law of the land -- that would mean 71% would be opposed.

3. Among the 29% minority who favor making Sharia, about half of Lebanese Muslims state that it should apply only to Muslims.

At least to my immediate eye, this would appear to indicate that Lebanese and Syrian Muslims, in comparison to Muslims from elsewhere in the Middle East, tend to hold highly secular views and thus are probably more likely to better integrate into Western countries (this may especially be the case for those who are especially well-educated or have a solid command of French or English -- I have read elsewhere that fluency in both languages are quite common in Syria).

 

[mheslep]

So if we look at the Lebanese Muslim respondents as a surrogate for how Syrian Muslims may respond, we find the following:

Perhaps, though I'm inclined to think the mixed nature of Lebanese demographics is important reason why Lebanese responses to that poll on Muslim opinion varies sharply from that of, say, Iraq. That is, I suspect the Lebanese melting pot of culture encourages less strident views. Lebanon is 41% Christian, and the Lebanese Islamists are split 50/50 Sunni and Shia. Syria by contrast is 92% Muslim and overwhelmingly Sunni.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Perhaps, though I'm inclined to think the mixed nature of Lebanese demographics is important reason why Lebanese responses to that poll on Muslim opinion varies sharply from that of, say, Iraq. That is, I suspect the Lebanese melting pot of culture encourages less strident views. Lebanon is 41% Christian, and the Lebanese Islamists are split 50/50 Sunni and Shia. Syria by contrast is 92% Muslim and overwhelmingly Sunni.

What you state above regarding Syria is not correct -- in fact, Syria is ethnically and religiously diverse. The population can be broken down to the following:

1. 74% Sunni Muslim, mostly Sunni Arabs (59-60%), but also including Kurds (9%) and Turkomen (3%)
2. 13% Shia Muslim -- this would include both Twelver Shia (the dominant form of Shia Islam practiced in Iran), the Alawaites, and Ismailis
3. 10% Christian -- this would include members of the Syrian Orthodox Church, along with Greek Catholics, Assyrian Church of the East, Armenian Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, and others.
4. 3% Druze -- a unique, syncretic religion that combines elements of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Gnosticism, Hinduism, and Neoplatonist and Pythagorean philosophies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria#Demographics

 

[mheslep]

What you state above regarding Syria is not correct -- in fact, Syria is ethnically and religiously diverse. ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria#Demographics

Which is a difference of few percent, 87% Muslim in your wiki tally. I used this wiki page, which references another source. Either way, Lebanon is far more diverse demographically than Syria over a much smaller geographic space (15% of Syria).