News What are the potential solutions for the EU refugee crisis?

[Astronuc]

The article that you quoted is a bit misleading. Under Schengen Zone rules, any member state is allowed to do so as an emergency and temporary solution. This law was already invoked a few times as a way to keep hooligans out from some events (football fans, left wing rioters, etc). So so far it's not a breach and more an usage of emergency powers, towards which Germans are fully entitled.

Thank you for the clarification. I'm not versed in the Schengen agreement, and I suspect most US journalists are not either. The article came from Reuters, but not sure if it originated in US, UK or EU state.

 

[Czcibor]

Thank you for the clarification. I'm not versed in the Schengen agreement, and I suspect most US journalists are not either. The article came from Reuters, but not sure if it originated in US, UK or EU state.

Now, when I think about it, I'm not sure how the treaty is exactly worded and to what extend this policy is officially sanctioned to which simply tolerated. There is also another nuance that presumably Americans don't realize - Schengen Zone is something different than EU. There are quite a few EU countries that are not part Schengen treaty (ex. UK, Ireland, Romania) and some non EU countries belong to Schengeg (ex. Switzerland, Norway).

 

[Vanadium 50]

Countries are allowed to exceptionally temporarily reinstate border controls.

By EU law, they have to accept refugees. When this law was passed, they were thinking a few hundred here, a few thousand there. In 2014, there were a quarter million. This was reached by mid-2015, and now the rate exceeds 100,000 per month. The question is how many can be absorbed? A million? Ten million? There are 2 million refugees in Turkey now, 2 million in other countries, and 6 million inside Syria.

The US has offered to take 10,000. That solves 0.1% of the problem.

 

[mheslep]

The US has offered to take 10,000. That solves 0.1% of the problem.

There's a good argument that taking 10,000,000 in the U.S. would also solve something like 0.1% of the problem.

 

[Astronuc]

Border-free Europe unravels as migrant crisis hits record day
http://news.yahoo.com/border-free-europe-unravels-migrant-crisis-125415743.html

Germany's surprise decision to restore border controls on Sunday had a swift domino effect, prompting neighbors to impose checks at their own frontiers as thousands of refugees pressed north and west across the continent while Hungary sealed the main informal border crossing point into the European Union.

A majority of EU interior ministers, meeting in Brussels, agreed in principle to share out 120,000 asylum seekers on top of some 40,000 distributed on a voluntary basis so far, EU president Luxembourg said. But details of the deal, to be formalized on Oct. 8, were vague with several ex-Communist central European states still rejecting mandatory quotas.

As the shockwaves rippled across Europe, Slovakia said it would impose controls on its borders with Hungary and Austria. The Netherlands announced it would make spot checks at its borders. Other EU states from Sweden to Poland said they were monitoring the situation to decide whether controls were needed.

I remember driving through Europe and not stopping at borders, probably about the time that Schengen was being discussed.

On the other hand, I had a trip to Germany, followed by visit to France. The Germans told me I didn't need a visa, so they didn't issue one. But when I got to France, I was told I needed a visa. According to the Schengen rules as I understood them, if I entered through one Schengen state, I would be given access to other Schengen states with a requisite visa. Well it didn't go that way. I found out that Australia didn't have reciprocity with France or Spain, so they required visas, although German and other Schengen states did not.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Things are less complicated now. Or at least differently complicated. The visa rules are now harmonized in the Schengen zone, so Australians no longer need visas for short term stays. ("Annex 2" is the term) But anything involving long-term residency is still kind of a mess. And that includes the refugees.

 

[Astronuc]

http://news.yahoo.com/syrian-refugee-tripped-camerawoman-arrive-spain-soccer-coach-174503268--abc-news-topstories.html#

The Syrian refugee who was tripped while holding his child by a Hungarian camerawoman has moved to Spain after a soccer coaching school offered to help his family rebuild their lives.

Osama Abdul Mohsen, and his 7-year-old son Zaid, were emotional when they were greeted at Atocha train station in Madrid by staff from the soccer school.

"I love you, I love Madrid, I love Spain, all of Spain, thank you for all (for everything). This (is) very, very important for my life,” he said, speaking to reporters on the platform.

I wish him and his son well. Peace be upon him and the hundred's of thousands of refugees. May they find safe homes.

Meanwhile in the US - What Life Is Like for Syrian Family Seeking Refuge in Kentucky
https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/what-life-is-like-for-syrian-family-seeking-refuge-129229916387.html

 

[Astronuc]

In Europe, Iraqis and Syrians escape Islamists' harsh rule
http://news.yahoo.com/europe-iraqis-syrians-escape-islamists-harsh-rule-135553860.html

MYTILENE, Greece (AP) — Among the tens of thousands fleeing war and despair in the Middle East, one group feels a special relief in reaching Europe: those who have escaped areas ruled by Islamic State extremists and the harsh scrutiny of their religious police.

These refugees tell of how a Western-style haircut, a pair of jeans or a simple interaction with the opposite sex can lead to punishment by the Hisba, the branch of enforcers carrying out a brutal interpretation of Islamic Shariah law.

 

[Vanadium 50]

one group feels a special relief in reaching Europe: those who have escaped areas ruled by Islamic State extremists and the harsh scrutiny of their religious police.

The problem - or at least one problem - is just because they think the ISIL is too strict, does not mean that they welcome western values. There may well be those who feel beheading rape victims is just too cruel - they should only be stoned. Such people will not integrate well into European society.

 

[Astronuc]

European nations shift to working together on migrant crisis
http://news.yahoo.com/concessions-europes-leaders-migrant-numbers-grow-103644697.html

STROSINCI, Croatia (AP) — Cooperation replaced confrontation Saturday among European nations as thousands of asylum-seekers streamed into Croatia in hopes of creating a new future in Western Europe.

. . . At least 10,000 arrived on Friday alone, and Croatian authorities struggled to keep up with the influx of those fleeing war and poverty in the Middle East, Africa and Asia.

It's certainly a BIG problem and is not going to be resolved soon.

This bigger problem is how to improve the situations/conditions that cause migrants/refugees to flee.

 

[OmCheeto]

...
This bigger problem is how to improve the situations/conditions that cause migrants/refugees to flee.

No problem is too big for PF!

What is wrong with the US economy?
YOU!: Fix the US Energy Crisis

Ok. So we haven't really fixed those problems...
But we have addressed some of the causes.

We need a new thread: How would you fix the World?

I have many ideas.
But, alas, Ja nie zam bog.*
I may need some help with this. ---------
*Serbski, for; "I am not god".

 

[OmCheeto]

The author of HONY announced yesterday, that he would be sharing stories of the refugees.

This is the first feed I got, just moments ago:

Humans of New York
58 mins ·
“Before leaving for Europe, I went back to Syria to see my family once more. I slept in my uncle’s barn the entire time I was there, because every day the police were knocking on my father’s door. Eventually my father told me: ‘If you stay any longer, they will find you and they will kill you.’ So I contacted a smuggler and made my way to Istanbul. I was just about to leave for Europe when I received a call from my sister. She told me that my father had been very badly beaten by police, and unless I sent 5,000 Euro for an operation, he would die. That was my money to get to Europe. But what could I do? I had no choice. Then two weeks later she called with even worse news. My brother had been killed by ISIS while he was working in an oil field. They found our address on his ID card, and they sent his head to our house, with a message: ‘Kurdish people aren’t Muslims.’ My youngest sister found my brother’s head. This was one year ago. She has not spoken a single word since.” (Kos, Greece)

(2/6)https://fbcdn-photos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-0/p526x395/12063302_1096016617139104_8485447858452696370_n.jpg?oh=d2d0b5561352632e8e431c2b305ad582&oe=569A1FF7&__gda__=1449355771_b99c5c87993cc2fbc2b9b7ccd882c5c2​

 

[Czcibor]

It seems that our (Polish) prime minister promised to take 10.000-12.000 refugees.

Sounds ok for a country of 38 mln...

However, I have an insider knowledge that our immigration offices are already clogged, and trivia cases need almost half a year to be resolved. It seems like an incoming disaster, and it would be not even a matter of money or integration, but already first step of doing basic paperwork would be to challenging for my gov.

 

[Astronuc]

immigration offices are already clogged

From what states or regions are immigrants arriving? E. Europe, former SU, . . . .?

 

[Czcibor]

From what states or regions are immigrants arriving? E. Europe, former SU, . . . .?

Eastern Europe? That's generally already the EU, no permit needed. There were mostly people from the former SU, especially Ukraine. Also, quite many of foreign students.

It didn't look so far as a flood, but I had more an impression of office that has the same amount of staff, but maybe 50% (guess) more people to deal with and the same paranoiac procedures, which no one would dare to openly ignore. So queues are growing.

 

[Astronuc]

Eastern Europe? That's generally already the EU, no permit needed.

When I mentioned E. Europe, I was thinking more along the lines of the SE Europe as in Moldova, Romania, the Balkans, . . . , but I was wondering if folks were also coming from ME and Africa, . . . .

It didn't look so far as a flood, but I had more an impression of office that has the same amount of staff, but maybe 50% (guess) more people to deal with and the same paranoiac procedures, which no one would dare to openly ignore. So queues are growing.

I figured that was the case.

 

[HossamCFD]

...with a message: ‘Kurdish people aren’t Muslims.’

They should say that to Saladin. Or better yet, the 13th century Kurdish islamic theologian Ibn Taymiyyah who was so prominent that he was called the 'Sheikh of Islam'. Many see his work as the basis for all modern Wahabism and Jihadism.

 

[Tosh5457]

I'm happy to receive them in my country, but with strict control on those communities to make sure any terrorism plotting from ISIS soldiers, who inevitably come together with the good ones, gets uncovered. I'd also make sure the building of mosques got prohibited like in Switzerland, to show them that since they're in Europe, either they adapt or don't stay.

 

[OmCheeto]

They should say that to Saladin. Or better yet, the 13th century Kurdish islamic theologian Ibn Taymiyyah who was so prominent that he was called the 'Sheikh of Islam'. Many see his work as the basis for all modern Wahabism and Jihadism.

I doubt any sane person cares what ISIS thinks.

But I should clarify something I said earlier, as it strikes me as a cold, overly broad statement; "Although a left wing liberal idiot, I'm not averse to changing my mind; "You've made your bed, you can sleep in it.""

This was based mostly on the info-graphic contained in one of Czcibor's intro-links:

As far as I can tell, a significant quantitative part of the problem seems to originate from the Balkans: Kosovo, Albania, & Serbia, whose sole problem at the moment, appears to be unemployment.

Although unemployment is a very big problem, it hardly qualifies you for "refugee" status.
[IMHO]
It almost looks like they are taking advantage of the situation.
[/IMHO]ps. In the future, if I should make any "what the ... ?" statements, please don't hesitate to question me about it, as I seldom elucidate half of what I'm thinking.

Kind of like, um, right now.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I'd also make sure the building of mosques got prohibited like in Switzerland

Switzerland did not ban mosques. They banned new construction of minarets (through popular referendum, opposed by the government - an odd quirk of Swiss law). The history behind this is complex, and this probably shouldn't be taken entirely at face value.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I'm happy to receive them in my country, but with strict control on those communities to make sure any terrorism plotting from ISIS soldiers, who inevitably come together with the good ones, gets uncovered. I'd also make sure the building of mosques got prohibited like in Switzerland, to show them that since they're in Europe, either they adapt or don't stay.

So you are advocating prohibiting these refugees from practicing their religion? If the refugees were, say, members of the Syrian Orthodox Church (as no doubt many of the refugees are), would you advocate a prohibition on the building of a new church?

I find it astounding to me the degree of hatred and suspicion that is leveled against Muslims. Keep in mind that these refugees are fleeing the brutality of both ISIS/ISIL and the Assad regime. The likelihood that these refugees represent some kind of "fifth column" of IS agents intent on destroying Europe reeks of both racism and paranoia. And I would like to note that Muslims are a diverse group of people, and the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not terrorists, nor do they have any desire whatsoever to commit acts of violence against others.

Now before I get accused of being an apologist for Islam, I am an agnostic with a bias towards atheism who rejects all organized religions and have criticized all religions, including Islam. At the same time, I have personally known many people who are either practicing Muslims or come from Muslim religious backgrounds -- people I consider to be my good friends -- and they are no different than any of my other friends, among whom include Christians of various denominations, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Parsis, and also those who reject all traditional organized religions like myself.

 

[StatGuy2000]

The problem - or at least one problem - is just because they think the ISIL is too strict, does not mean that they welcome western values. There may well be those who feel beheading rape victims is just too cruel - they should only be stoned. Such people will not integrate well into European society.

Vanadium 50, your post above is implying a default assumption that Syrian refugees will not integrate well into European society. But is that necessarily a warranted assumption, given that refugees fleeing desolation from their home countries may be motivated to want to rebuild their lives and integrate to their new countries if permitted to do so by the said countries?

The bolded statement is important to consider, given that many European countries have often had a difficult time grappling with immigration. It makes me wonder if Syrian refugees may better integrate in countries founded on immigration and a long history of immigration (e.g. Canada, US, Australia)

 

[Czcibor]

Vanadium 50, your post above is implying a default assumption that Syrian refugees will not integrate well into European society. But is that necessarily a warranted assumption, given that refugees fleeing desolation from their home countries may be motivated to want to rebuild their lives and integrate to their new countries if permitted to do so by the said countries.

The bolded statement is important to consider, given that many European countries have often had a difficult time grappling with immigration. It makes me wonder if Syrian refugees may better integrate in countries founded on immigration and a long history of immigration (e.g. Canada, US, Australia)

Should he use assumption based on prior experience (I'm especially worried about riots in Sweden - they have one of the top organized gov, assuming being much better than them should presumably be classified as hubris) or maybe based on ideologically believes that this time everything would work perfectly?

Why are you astonished? I mean local population has to finance serious safety net spending (for decades, there is problem of still higher unemployment rate among second generations) and in exchange get boost in crime rate. I don't think that suggestion than in Marseile is not so bad because it is just gang violence and not terrorism is so reassuring:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...most-dangerous-place-to-be-young-8166738.html
(Muslim are there roughly 1/3rd of population, pending on source)

For me the reaction of population seem very rational. Even if we treat that London bombing of 2005 was done by a person granted asylum as one time event.

I'd add to it that the human wave caused Germans to reached a conclusion that their gov lost control over situation. That neither increases chances for integration nor boost enthusiasm.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Should he use assumption based on prior experience (I'm especially worried about riots in Sweden - they have one of the top organized gov, assuming being much better than them should presumably be classified as hubris) or maybe based on ideologically believes that this time everything would work perfectly?

Why are you astonished? I mean local population has to finance serious safety net spending (for decades, there is problem of still higher unemployment rate among second generations) and in exchange get boost in crime rate. I don't think that suggestion than in Marseile is not so bad because it is just gang violence and not terrorism is so reassuring:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...most-dangerous-place-to-be-young-8166738.html
(Muslim are there roughly 1/3rd of population, pending on source)

For me the reaction of population seem very rational. Even if we treat that London bombing of 2005 was done by a person granted asylum as one time event.

I'd add to it that the human wave caused Germans to reached a conclusion that their gov lost control over situation. That neither increases chances for integration nor boost enthusiasm.

What you fail to take into account is that the problems facing higher unemployment rate, crime rate, and gang violence you point out is at least partially the result of the systemic racism and intolerance that is entrenched within European countries, who view immigrants in a hostile light and often refuse to allow for the integration that you speak of. Had the public been more open to accepting of new immigrants or second generation residents as fellow nationals, and had the governments done more to financially integrate immigrants into the national fold, both economically and socially, it is fair to say that much of the social problem you speak of would be lessened.

I am from Canada, which currently has among the highest levels of immigration in the world, often from non-Western countries. While I will candidly admit that Canada has its problems with respect to immigrants, in general the country has succeeded in integrating its immigrants into the national fabric with considerable ease. Canada also has a history of welcoming large numbers of refugees who have subsequently become very successful in this country (Ismaili Muslims of Indian descent from Uganda who were expelled from the country during the 1970s and 1980s, Vietnamese boat people during the same time are just a few examples). My hope is that the election of a new Prime Minister will follow through on his promise to provide assistance and help to these refugees, who I see can make tremendous contributions to my country.

 

[S.G. Janssens]

My hope is that the election of a new Prime Minister will follow through on his promise to provide assistance and help to these refugees

If I'm not mistaken, one of the new prime minister's first acts was to withdraw Canada from the military coalition against ISIS.

 

[mheslep]

I am from Canada, which currently has among the highest levels of immigration in the world...

Roughly the same immigration rate as its southern neighbor the US BTW (~1.5 million per year with ~1 million legal and ~0.5 million illegal)
http://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/ois_lpr_fr_2013.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Breakdown_by_state

 

[StatGuy2000]

Roughly the same immigration rate as its southern neighbor the US BTW (~1.5 million per year with ~1 million legal and ~0.5 million illegal)
http://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/ois_lpr_fr_2013.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Breakdown_by_state

Notice that I stated among the highest in the Western world, not the highest. Also I should have clarified that immigration rate on a per capital basis (i.e. based on percentage of the population).

 

[StatGuy2000]

If I'm not mistaken, one of the new prime minister's first acts was to withdraw Canada from the military coalition against ISIS.

More specifically, to end Canada's participation in the use of bombing campaigns by our pilots specifically in Syria. It's worth pointing out that Canada's actual military participation in the military coalition against ISIS in Syria is minimal at best (according to one news source, out of the 119 coalition air strikes in Syria as of Sept 4, 2015, Canada has participated in just 4 of these since Canada's mission had expanded to that country back in March).

http://globalnews.ca/news/2204836/i...-has-participated-in-4-airstrikes-over-syria/

And it's worth keeping in mind how effective these bombing campaigns have been in actually stopping IS's progress in either Syria or Iraq.

 

[mheslep]

how effective these bombing campaigns have been in actually stopping IS's progress in either Syria or Iraq.

Which is? By contrast, how effective will doing nothing be?

 

[StatGuy2000]

Which is? By contrast, how effective will doing nothing be?

That is a straw man argument, because you seem to be arguing that "we" (as in we in the Western world) ought to do nothing, an argument which I am not making.

I should also point out that your reply is implicitly making the assumption that the only 2 options that Western countries like the US and Canada have available are: (a) carry out bombing campaign, or (b) do nothing. There are other options that are possible (e.g. supplying arms and tactical or intelligence support to the secular opponents of IS like the Free Syrian Army, sending ground troops to Syria under a coalition framework, hash out diplomatic solution with Assad and the Free Syrian Army or other opponents of his regime who are not aligned with IS).

And I don't think it is at all improper to question whether the current strategy that the US and their coalition partners are performing are actually making a real impact in defeating or eliminating IS as a threat to the region. Nor do I think it is improper for the new Canadian PM to make a decision that the (limited) resources available militarily in Canada should best be deployed in areas outside of bombing missions.