What Caused the Recent Bombings in London?

[Anttech]

It is well documented that Isreal does not give the same rights to Non-Jews in Isreal as Jews...

 

[Yonoz]

Israel is established as Jews State. This means any person convert to Judaism (usually after complex process) will be granted automatically the Israeli nationality as he/she arrives the country, while people who live there for centuries have no equal right because they are not Jews.

People of all religions who have lived in Israel through its establishment have Israeli citizenship. That includes Muslims, Christians and other religions. Anyone marrying an Israeli partner will receive an Israeli citizenship, anyone born in Israel will receive an Israeli citizenship, and so on.
Israel is the only Jewish state in the world. It was established with that as an explicit aim. It does not make it religious.

Nobody can ignore the effect of religious parties in Israel today (Shas, Hamevdal ..etc) , also they still used the theory of (promised biblical land) to justify building more settlements in the occupied land.

Here is the Israeli Parliament makeup: Likud (secular): 40 seats, Labour (secular): 28 seats, Shinui (anti-religious): 14 seats, Shas (religious): 11 seats, Ihud Leumi (secular and progressive religious): 7 seats, National Religious Party: 4 seats, Agudat Israel (religious): 3 seats, Hadash-Taal (Arab and Communist): 3 seats, National Democratic Assembly (Arab): 3 seats, 4 seats to 2 religious parties and 2 more to an Arab party, 2 independent members, totaling 120 seats.
The decisions and laws passed are done so democratically. The supreme court intervenes sometimes when a law deemed undemocratic is passed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3111727.stm
((Israeli law limits Arab citizenship

The Israeli parliament passed a law preventing Palestinians married to Israelis from gaining Israeli citizenship.
Human rights groups have condemned the law as racist but supporters say it is necessary for security reasons and to maintain the Jewish character of the state of Israel.
The law will prevent Palestinians from the occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza from marrying Arab-Israelis, who make up about 20% of the population of Israel.

That law has since been discussed in the Supreme court, which decided it is illegal and was returned to the Parliament for ammendment.

 

[Yonoz]

It is well documented that Isreal does not give the same rights to Non-Jews in Isreal as Jews...

That's a very broad statement, I suppose you expect me to take your word for its validity. Seeing your previous post, I don't think I should.
How about you give us a specific example that we can discuss?
Do excuse me if I don't respond promptly as I'm going to spend the weekend away from home and it might take a while until I view this thread.

 

[Informal Logic]

Mostly correct (about my meaning), with the caveat that I said "an awful lot of the bad things", meaning some, but not all of them were corrected. In fact, I think my posts imply that I believe an awful lot of bad things still exist. This sentence was meant to imply exactly that: "And recent rifts suggest we may be nearing a second Reformation." This means that I think there are enough bad things to warrant a second reformation - a second major reorganization of the Catholic Church specifically, and pretty much all of Christianity in general.

True, and finally the Catholic church has begun to address the issue of priests who molest children, though there are a few other glaring matters in need of improvement, such as allowing (or better yet encouraging) the use of condoms to prevent AIDS, etc. With regard to the extremism that we now see here in the US, I can only hope there will be change toward moderation, tolerance, and respect for other people's right to believe differently from the Christian faith (or should I say their interpretation of it) or to have no faith at all. Personally I do not hold much hope for these things.

...Islam is the only religion who accepts the other religions, which is not the case in Christianity and Judaism...[23]

Agreed that most Christian religions believe one can only be saved through Christ. I do not know whether there is a similar belief in Judaism, or if one can convert. At least Muslims and Jews are not into proselyting as with Christianity. However, I believe Muslims have required conversion by force, for example when invading Iran.

Bottom line, I agree with other posts (Art, Bilal) that religion should be between the individual and God, and kept far away from politics. There is no doubt that religion plays a large role in these terrorist acts.

 

[McGyver]

One can't help but think back to the inflammatory rhetoric between France and Brittain over the future Olympic site selection. To everyone's surprise, Brittain won. The following day, this occurred. Related, or complelely unrelated?

 

[SOS2008]

One can't help but think back to the inflammatory rhetoric between France and Brittain over the future Olympic site selection. To everyone's surprise, Brittain won. The following day, this occurred. Related, or complelely unrelated?

Last I heard on the news, it is related to Blair and the holding of certain
individual(s) by the British, and of course Blair's support of Bush/US. As for the timing, speculation is that it has to do with the international nature of the G8 meetings.

 

[Evo]

And I just realized that this thread seems OT and is getting very close to a religious discussion or discussion of religion, although more from a historical or sociological perspective. Not sure where to go with this - guidance please.

When discussing these terrorists it is impossible to discuss their acts and motivation with discussing their religion because that is the basis for their actions.

 

[wolram]

I hate this thread, please stop the deaths.

 

[pallidin]

When discussing these terrorists it is impossible to discuss their acts and motivation with discussing their religion because that is the basis for their actions.

I must agree.
It is not possible to correctly delve into the psychology of an theological terrorist without also examining their "assumed" relevant interpretations of their own religion.
After all, it is their driving force.

 

[Burnsys]

When discussing these terrorists it is impossible to discuss their acts and motivation with discussing their religion because that is the basis for their actions.

That is a nice scapegoat evo. but religion exist from the beginin of humankind adn terrorist act no more that 30 years or a little more.

Of course religions plays a role in the terrorist but it's not their main motivation. may be religion make them to do crazy acts like killing themselfs but their are mainly motivated by injustices comited by 1st world countrys, for example suporting and helping dictators who killed and tortured them, overtrowing democracys, taking all their natural resources and teching their kids that If out of 10 atheists, 5 are killed by 1 Muslim, 5 would be left. etc...

 

[Mercator]

That is a nice scapegoat evo. but religion exist from the beginin of humankind adn terrorist act no more that 30 years or a little more.

Of course religions plays a role in the terrorist but it's not their main motivation. may be religion make them to do crazy acts like killing themselfs but their are mainly motivated by injustices comited by 1st world countrys, for example suporting and helping dictators who killed and tortured them, overtrowing democracys, taking all their natural resources and teching their kids that If out of 10 atheists, 5 are killed by 1 Muslim, 5 would be left. etc...

Burnsys, terror acts have been comitted in name of religions since the birth of religion. They used swords instead of plastci explosives, but it's still terror.

 

[pallidin]

I suppose what disturbs me the most with radical Muslim terrorist attacks is this:

If you do not believe and adhere to the radical Muslim scheme of thought, you are worthy of death.

 

[ron damon]

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20050701faessay84409/robert-s-leiken/europe-s-angry-muslims.html

Summary: Radical Islam is spreading across Europe among descendants of Muslim immigrants. Disenfranchised and disillusioned by the failure of integration, some European Muslims have taken up jihad against the West. They are dangerous and committed -- and can enter the United States without a visa.

 

[ron damon]

Something I read somewhere: the Socialist ultra-Leftist mayor of London has given dinners in honor of a leading Muslim cleric there who publicly and explicitly has called for the destruction of Israel and the extermination of its Jewish inhabitants, and for Jihad against the West, while Oriana Fallaci faces criminal prosecution for criticizing the Muslim worldview.

Everyday Muslims (and many in this very board) call America, Israel, Americans, Bush, the West, Christians, Jews, etc. the whole spectrum of hatred-inspired language, yet if you dare to talk about the many shortcomings of Muslim civilization one is immediately labeled a Fascist...

What does this mean?

 

[pattylou]

Everyday Muslims (and many in this very board) call America, Israel, Americans, Bush, the West, Christians, Jews, etc. the whole spectrum of hatred-inspired language, yet if you dare to talk about the many shortcomings of Muslim civilization one is immediately labeled a Fascist...

What does this mean?

It means that Muslims are currently seen as "the victims." It's psychology, and it's human, and it's the sort of support America enjoyed after being attacked, until Bush decided he'd rather be the aggressor.
At which point global good will, towards the US, evaporated.

If muslim nations took on the role of overt aggressor, you would see public sentiment change immediately.

 

[ron damon]

Since Muslims have no hope of winning a conventional war against the West, isn't terrorism their only alternative in waging a war they very desperately feel needs to be conducted?

But then, why do they feel this way? They'll give plenty of excuses, probably centering on W's policies. But the Iranian revolution happened under a very leftish Democratic administration, and hostilities have been sustained through many more US administrations with wildly diverging foreign policy styles...

Does it really come back to Israel? I need to buy a couple of history books from the period. But if the twin devils of the Jews and the Americans vanish from the minds of the oppressed and restless masses of greater Arabia, what is preventing them from overthrowing the oligarchies that live in luxury on their backs? Those despots are crafty fellows, they'll find one way or another to redirect the hopelessness of their subjects elsewhere...

Europe couldn't care less about the Jews that escaped their extermination efforts half a century ago, but America will not allow a second holocaust to occur... so what are our options? If everything fails, and the middle east slides further into despotism, poverty, desperation and Jihad, what options are we left with?

 

[pattylou]

Does it really come back to Israel? I need to buy a couple of history books from the period.

I've been reading a memoir: Reading Lolita in Tehran.May not be your taste, but goes through one educated Iranian woman's experience in the US and Iran, through the 70's, 80's, 90's. She currently teaches in the US on the east coast.

p.s. a major theme she draws in the Iranian revoution has less to do with Israel and more to do with fundamentalists resisting westernization of Iran. Obviously.

 

[GENIERE]

I just learned about this:

http://www.kingabdullah.jo/main2.php?page_id=464〈_hmka1=1

A condemnation of terrorism or the exaltation of Islam? I suppose I should acknowledge it as a condemnation but in another thread Bilal stated:

…Those people doing these attacks in the name of Islam, so I will never forgive them, I wish they will be annihilated completely and soon… they gave dirty image for our nations.

That works for me.

...

 

[Anttech]

That's a very broad statement, I suppose you expect me to take your word for its validity. Seeing your previous post, I don't think I should.
How about you give us a specific example that we can discuss?
Do excuse me if I don't respond promptly as I'm going to spend the weekend away from home and it might take a while until I view this thread.

http://www.google.be/search?q=israe...&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&start=10&sa=N

take your pick, I am not anti-Jewish... My ex-girlfriend was Jewish, however I am anti injustice. When you have injustice, fustration will build and you will see, atrocities commited

Terrorism in any form is bad... Be it the Isrealie troops terror on the normal peace loving Palistines, or Al-quedas Terrorism in London a few days ago!

 

[ron damon]

Be it the Isrealie troops terror on the normal peace loving Palistines, or Al-quedas Terrorism in London a few days ago!

so you propose Jews pick up their things, leave Palestine, and go where?? Put yourself in their place. At least they don't deliberately target innocent men, women and children going to work or school in a public bus... the way I see it, that land does not belong to either Jews nor Palestinians, but is in dispute, and since both can't have it, and they can't live together, let it got to the most deserving people (the Jews in my estimation).

 

[Bilal]

First you can not claim that Palestinian (Muslims and Christian) who live in their homeland since centuries have no right to exist there! Otherwise you can ask the American to return back to Europe.

What about separation of the two communities: Jews areas for Israel and non Jews areas for Palestinian? What about democratic Palestine (as it was before Zionism and British occupation) with equal rights for all citizens: Muslims, Christian, Jews and non religious?

Do you support democracy and the freedom of nations to decide their future or fascism and ethic cleansing?

so you propose Jews pick up their things, leave Palestine, and go where?? Put yourself in their place. At least they don't deliberately target innocent men, women and children going to work or school in a public bus... the way I see it, that land does not belong to either Jews nor Palestinians, but is in dispute, and since both can't have it, and they can't live together, let it got to the most deserving people (the Jews in my estimation).

 

[ron damon]

Do you support... fascism and ethic cleansing?

I support a gentle stream running through a meadow covered with pretty daisies under clear and sunny skies...

 

[Art]

How does the middle east road map initiative suit? The fact it is equally unpopular with both Israel and Palestine suggests it it probably fair. Do you think?

 

[kat]

It is well documented that Isreal does not give the same rights to Non-Jews in Isreal as Jews...

It's also well documented that jews are not given the same rights in Arab countries that they are allowed to live in...oh, wait..erm which countries were those?
Oh, hey...by the way..do you think Palestinians who sell property to Jews should be beheaded? Also well documented.

 

[kat]

How does the middle east road map initiative suit? The fact it is equally unpopular with both Israel and Palestine suggests it it probably fair. Do you think?

I think it's fair, but not workable without international intervention. Which countries could do this? I think it would have to be countries that do not have a past history of Jewish persecution...and countries that will not be seen as a "Christian Crusader"...
Otherwise..only by Israel working unilaterally will there ever be progress. It appears that Sharon understands this.

 

[GENIERE]

It's also well documented that jews are not given the same rights in Arab countries that they are allowed to live in...oh, wait..erm which countries were those?
Oh, hey...by the way..do you think Palestinians who sell property to Jews should be beheaded? Also well documented.

And borrowing from Kat… It's also well documented that Palestinians are not given the same rights in Arab countries that they are allowed to live in...oh, wait..erm which countries were those? I think it might be Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Lebanon. Maybe these nations think they should wander in the dessert for forty years.


...

 

[Smurf]

Did anyone else first wonder if this thread was about The Clash and wonder why it was in the political sub-forum?

 

[The Smoking Man]

Did anyone else first wonder if this thread was about The Clash and wonder why it was in the political sub-forum?

More like Jerry Springer doing his show in London a few years ago.

 

[Bilal]

Palestinian accepted road map initiative, for this reason they stop attacking Israel since more than 6 months, while Israel continue building settlements and stealing more lands in WB.

Gaza is only 5% of occupied Palestinian land, so their withdrawal is not enough as some people think. They should accept to withdraw completely to 1967 border.

How does the middle east road map initiative suit? The fact it is equally unpopular with both Israel and Palestine suggests it it probably fair. Do you think?

 

[Bilal]

You can add also that non Jews are not allowed to buy houses or Land in “pure” Jews towns in Israel even if they have Israeli nationality!

Jews are not allowed to buy Palestinian land because it is one -way process: Every Jews buy Palestinian land; this land is registered in the Zionist organization - Kern Kimit in Chicago as Jewish land forever! So nobody can sell it again to non Jews! This organization is established in 1907 as one of most important branches of Zionism and they still working hard to buy more and more lands and to register it as Jews land forever. Therefore people have the right to protect their country by preventing selling Lands for Zionists. It is sensitive topic because it is related to national security and future of next generation.

And borrowing from Kat… It's also well documented that Palestinians are not given the same rights in Arab countries that they are allowed to live in...oh, wait..erm which countries were those? I think it might be Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Lebanon. Maybe these nations think they should wander in the dessert for forty years.


...

 

[kat]

Palestinian accepted road map initiative, for this reason they stop attacking Israel since more than 6 months, while Israel continue building settlements and stealing more lands in WB.

Lol, what planet are you on? There were 278 attacks in the first three weeks after the "road map" was supposedly implimented. They included Shots fired at towns and villages, Shots fired at military installations, Assaults/stabbings, Bombings, Mortar bombs, Hit and run attacks by vehicles, Bombs were found, Anti-tank missiles, Grenades and Rockets were used, and there were drive-by shootings and even terror attacks inside Israel.

Gaza is only 5% of occupied Palestinian land, so their withdrawal is not enough as some people think.

Riigght. I'm curious of something though. Do you think Israeli Arabs want to become a part of Palestine or would they prefer to continue that the land the occupy remain a part of Israel?

They should accept to withdraw completely to 1967 border.

Based on what? Sorry, but borders have not been drawn up or agreed upon and are not to be drawn up until later in the roadmap.

 

[Anttech]

Lol, what planet are you on?

He is on earth, and his location says "Palestine" which I would suggest is slightly closer to ME problems, than maine :-)

Do you think Israeli Arabs want to become a part of Palestine or would they prefer to continue that the land the occupy remain a part of Israel?

Thats not the point, the point is that Isreal is not only occupying Palestine land, but continues to build on occupied terrories... They need withdrawn, and allow the Palestines to live there! If they want to create a whole state, then NON-jews need the exact same rights as Jews...

Do you think that something as unjust as this would be allowed to happen anywhere else in the world?

Put yourself in their place. At least they don't deliberately target innocent men, women and children going to work or school in a public bus.

I beg to differ http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0503-03.htm

Isreali troops have as much of a lack of respect for life as Al-queda.. does!

 

[stoned]

now for sure you guys in UK, are going to have to carry identification cards with you all the time.

 

[Anttech]

Something I read somewhere: the Socialist ultra-Leftist mayor of London

I don't know where you get your sources from but he is not "Ultra-leftist" He is a Londoner, and London takes pride in it diverse Culture. All 12 Million of them. The powers to be in London listen to their ethnic minorities.

the way I see it, that land does not belong to either Jews nor Palestinians, but is in dispute, and since both can't have it, and they can't live together, let it got to the most deserving people (the Jews in my estimation).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/timeline/

You decide who is more worthy, but perhaps have all the facts first. The Jews had not been in Palestine since 500BC, over 2000 Years ago! At the turn of the 1900 century started 'forcing' there way in, using there influence in the British and USA Governments to mandate Palestine for Zionists.. They then were able to assemble a large enough army to force the Arabs out of there home for 2000 Years... Not very fair is it?

What gets me is that Some western Counties Governments harp on about "Islamic" states, and the need for democracy in these countries, where the government is 'secular', yet they seems to forget about the Israel...

I am not an Arab nor do I cordon any terrorism, but in the view of the Arab nations "the West" is 2 faced, and I have to agree (Just like in the view of Ireland England was 2 faced)... Invading countries for economical gain, leaving worse dictators in power, because of the lack of fruit at the end of the conflict.. Calling for an end of "Islamic" governments in the ME, yet allowing the Zionists to strangle hold Palestine...

Killing >150,000 people in Iraq for 'missing' weapons of mass destruction. And holding which ever country they feel like accountable to UN mandates (Israel has Nuclear weapons, so why aren’t weapons inspectors knocking on their door?)

This sense of injustice drives people to lash out, just look at what happened in LA when Rodney King was beaten by the police.

If we want world peace then we all have to push our governments to be more transparent and less corrupt, us “rich” nations need to stop pillaging poor countries and allow for an equal playing ground when it comes to trade

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

Killing >150,000 people in Iraq

Can you post sources on these numbers please? Are these soldiers, civilians or both?