News What Caused the Recent Bombings in London?

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Recent bombings in London, attributed to a terror group linked to Al-Qaeda, resulted in multiple fatalities and injuries, with at least six blasts targeting buses and Tube stations. The attacks coincided with the G8 summit, raising concerns about security and the motivations behind such violence. Eyewitness accounts indicate the severity of the situation, with emergency services responding effectively despite the chaos. Discussions among participants highlight the futility of targeting civilians for political aims, suggesting that such actions only serve to alienate the public and provoke harsher retaliatory measures. The ongoing dialogue emphasizes the need for a deeper understanding of the underlying issues driving extremism, rather than solely relying on military responses.
  • #121
russ_watters said:
Well, an influx of reasonable arguments has sucked me back in (damn you, Evo)... I was also thinking about that earlier. People often talk of "Christianity" as a single religion, but I was thinking that the Protestant Reformation changed an awful lot of the bad things in it that caused things such as the Crusades. And while the Catholic church still exists, it too was forced to change by the Protestant Reformation. And recent rifts suggest we may be nearing a second Reformation.

To my knowledge, Islam has not had a similar internal revolution.

It seems by your comments that you've either forgotten or didn't realize that crusades were a reactionary and defensive movement as opposed to invasive. Brutal...yes, if you read descriptions of the brutality of the invading forces...maybe not so bad in comparision. Unless of course, you were jewish.
 
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  • #122
selfAdjoint said:
Astronuc, this sentence:

Means "Christianity had a bad thing in it, that caused the the Crusades, and then the Protestant Reformation came along and fixed it so it didn't". You can disagree with the sense of the sentence (Christianity after the Reformation introduced colonialism and African slavery), but it does not assert that the Crusades came after the Reformation.
Thanks for the correction. My apologies to Russ for misinterpreting his point.

It is not clear to me however, that the reformation changed anything, particularly the culture of the time. It simply resulted in divergent paths of religious practice within the same or neighboring cultures.

John Calvin executed people for heresy (case of Miguel Serveto, aka Michael Servetus, 1553) as much as the Catholic Church did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Servetus#Imprisonment_and_execution

The anti-Semitism of the Lutheran Church has only recently been addressed -
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2166

Yet there are still denominations or individual churches with some christian denomniations whose prinicipal mission is to proselyitze and convert Jews.

And various so-called 'conservative' or evangelical churches condemn the so-called 'liberal' churches both sets within the christian religion.

And I just realized that this thread seems OT and is getting very close to a religious discussion or discussion of religion, although more from a historical or sociological perspective. Not sure where to go with this - guidance please.
 
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  • #123
At last, I've finally came to the end of the thread.

I have some strong views against organised religion which I won't go into here (unless asked of course).

This is just going to be a short post to put some stuff on the table:

Old testament god / New testament god

One fire, wrath and vengence / One peace happiness and forgiveness

One in the same or two different gods? If it's the same god then what could change the mind of something which 'knows everything etc)

Secondly, with regards to Muslim reformations I found this link (3 pages) which I found a very interesting read: http://cremesti.com/amalid/Islam/Yemeni_Ancient_Koranic_Texts.htm

also, not so interesting but worth a look is: http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_adul2.htm

The one thing the west can't get a grip in (in general of course) is that we separate law and the land whereas the ME it's one and the same.

So where we fight because of politics and not religion they fight back because of their politics (which we see as religion), does that make sense?
 
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  • #124
One in the same or two different gods? If it's the same god then what could change the mind of something which 'knows everything etc)

it didnt, we (humans) started to Interpret the message of God differently.
 
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  • #125
Art said:
Here's what the old testament says to do with non-believers
But what does the New Testament Say? and erm...what does the "New" Koran say? and well...
what does that have to do with peace loving Budhist?

THAILAND: The War on Education



July 8, 2005: The Islamic terrorism in the south has resulted in some two thousand casualties (nearly 800 dead) in the south so far this year. That's nearly a dozen casualties a day. Because most of the violence has been directed at government employees, especially teachers, there has been an exodus of teachers from the school system. Over a thousands teachers, most of the them Buddhists, have asked for transfers to jobs elsewhere in Thailand. The government is having a difficult time replacing the missing teachers, even though there is now a "combat pay" bonus for teachers in the south, and help in arming teachers down there with pistols for self-defense. The Islamic terrorists are against education for women, and education in general unless it is provided by Moslem religious schools.
 
  • #126
Dear quetzalcoatl9,

I agree that Muslims as any other community have ''harmful grass'' ... we have the same trouble with such extremists who wanted also to control our life and to convert our conflict with Zionism to religious wars. But they are not so powerful or popular. Just stupid decisions as war on Iraq or to consider USA and Israel fighting in the same war are enough to create strong opposite front, so those extremists can float on the top of the wave.

Iraq may be the best example, some terrorist groups got advantage of the crimes of the occupation so they succeeded to create strong networks and to attack in the name of ''revenge for Iraq".

Concerning Islamic history, I will present just few facts and I am willing to provide proofs up on request:

- 40% of Muslims exist in south East Asia (From Bangladesh till Indonesia) and in central Asia/Russia. No Muslim solider invaded that region; the people became Muslims by Muslims traders who invited them to this religion. Furthermore, 15% of Muslims live in Sub-Saharan Africa ... also no Muslims army reached that region. This means that majority of Islamic world became Muslims by peaceful relations not by sword as some people claim.

- After the end of Islamic Khilafa in 1924 and before the western colonial era, Christian represented: 25% of Palestine, 60% of Lebanon, 30% of Syria, 20% of Jordan, 20% of Egypt and 15% of Iraq ... Moreover 60% of the Jews came from Islamic world. If Islam force people to convert, how we can explain such high percentage of non Muslims who survived for 13 centuries under Islamic rule? May be you should read about the golden age of Jews in Andalusia (Spain under Islamic rule) for 800 years to understand how people from different religions succeeded to survive peacefully in spite of crusades and religious wars in that time.

The West declared Crusade in Middle Ages, but Muslims did not reply in that time by annihilation of Arab Christian, even they can do that easily after the failure of the crusaders.

-Problem of Muslims countries today is similar to any third world country. There are many horrible wars in Africa, South America and Asia. For example, one million people killed in Rwanda within 4 months, which is more than all the victims of violence in Islamic world in last 20 years.

quetzalcoatl9 said:
Bilal,
It is also a historical fact that the Muslims were able to amass large forces through forced conversion of the people they conquered, thus developing a large enough force to (unexpectedly) invade and conquer Byzantium.
 
  • #127
Crusaders wars started by annihilation of the Jews and Eastern christian. Even the first crusade finished in Constantinople (capital of Eastern Church), so if you think that Muslims deserve to be annihilated in that time, what was the crime of Jews and other Christian sectors? What the mistake of thousands of Jews whom slaughtered in Jerusalem in 1099?

kat said:
It seems by your comments that you've either forgotten or didn't realize that crusades were a reactionary and defensive movement as opposed to invasive. Brutal...yes, if you read descriptions of the brutality of the invading forces...maybe not so bad in comparision. Unless of course, you were jewish.
 
  • #128
it didnt, we (humans) started to interpritate the message of God differently.
What message of god? The bible? I've always failed to understand why some people believe in that which is written are words from 'god' just because someone says they are (baring in mind, those that disagreed were often put to death because of 'heresy').
 
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  • #129
It is also a historical fact that the Muslims were able to amass large forces through forced conversion of the people they conquered, thus developing a large enough force to (unexpectedly) invade and conquer Byzantium.
On the other hand, how about what the Romans did?

Amass large forces through forced conversion of the people they conquered, thus developing a large enough force to (unexpectedly) invade and conquer . . . Gaul, England, Northern Europe, Dacia, Thrace . . .

After Constantine, Christianity was 'imposed' on various non-Christian populations.

The point - for what some seem to be condemning as being unique to Islam is in fact not unique to Islam, but historically present in all major cultures.

As for peaceful Buddhists - I wish it were so. Look at the struggle in Sri Lanka between Tamil Tigers and Singhalese.

Or more recently - Brawling Buddhists

BANGKOK (Reuters, May 31, 2005) - Five Thai Buddhist monks have been defrocked and fined after a brawl with monks from a nearby temple, police and newspapers said Tuesday.

or

COLOMBO, Sri Lanka - Government and opposition lawmakers brawled on the floor of Sri Lanka's parliament Tuesday, in a fistfight that injured two Buddhist monks. (from Charlotte Observer, June 8, 2005)
 
  • #130
If you believe Jesus was God made flesh, then his stories and teaching are the word of God...

Old testament god / New testament god

One fire, wrath and vengence / One peace happiness and forgiveness

One in the same or two different gods? If it's the same god then what could change the mind of something which 'knows everything etc)
What message of god? The bible? I've always failed to understand why believe in that which is written are words from 'god' just because someone says they are

Are you not contridicting yourself, or did I misinterprete what you are saying..
Your first post is saying the bible is painting a picture of God (Message of God)

Your second post is saying you fail to understand that the Bible is the message of God? Yet you were able to paint a picture of God... If God is the All Powerful (Knows everything) how can we Humans understand him without his Message?
 
  • #131
The point - for what some seem to be condemning as being unique to Islam is in fact not unique to Islam, but historically present in all major cultures.

Very True!

oreover 60% of the Jews came from Islamic world. If Islam force people to convert, how we can explain such high percentage of non Muslims who survived for 13 centuries under Islamic rule?

Lets not forget about the Assyrians and Greeks in Asia Minor, they were almost wiped out by the Otomen Turks.. My Point being Both Christians and Muslims have Dark Histories.. But with what we know now, we both should be able to live side by side in Harmony, and all fight the real major evils: Povertiy, and Greed..

Islam Christiandom and Jewdism are one and the same... All 3 believe in 1 God and the essence of the 3 are to Love your Neighbor! We Humans just *beep* it up!
 
  • #132
Actually we have no religious states except: Iran after 1979 and Saudi Arabia (partially: Pakistan)... the rest of countries follow the Anglo-French laws after the colonial era. Just check the laws in Syria, Jordan, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Egypt... It is all secular laws originated from the former colonial countries (UK-France).

The Western countries withdrew but they left ‘’protected dictators’’ and new nation/State called (Israel) which established based on religion. The protection of those dictators created a lot of anger. The opposite (against Israel and the dictators) used to be liberal-nationalist –left till the revolution in Iran in 1979, when the Islamic opposition started to grow up. After the fall of USSR, the left lost most of its power and the Islamic movement succeeded to fill the gap...
War on Iraq destroyed the nationalism and left the place for the Islamic movements to take the leadership of the opposition.

Take example Palestine:

Arafat (secular) , George Habash (Christian-nationalist-left) and Naif Hawtmeh (chrsiatin-left) represented the first generation of the Palestinian liberation movement in 50s-60s.

In 1988, after 40 years of organization the Palestinian resistance, Hamas and Islamic Jihad started to fight against the occupation, and they gain a lot of support because of hopless from the double standard of the West.

The other example is Iraq, it was one of the most secular nations in ME till the first gulf war (1991) and the 13 years sanction... many people decided to return to religion to face the hard life.

These are pure political conflicts, but they got religious cover recently because of the rise of extremism and religion in both sides: USA and the Islamic world.

By the way, most of Islamic movements are against Alqaeda and its terrorist tactics to target randomly the civilians.



Daminc said:
At last, I've finally came to the end of the thread.

The one thing the west can't get a grip in (in general of course) is that we separate law and the land whereas the ME it's one and the same.

So where we fight because of politics and not religion they fight back because of their politics (which we see as religion), does that make sense?
 
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  • #133
If you believe Jesus was God made flesh, then his stories and teaching are the word of God...
Why would anyone believe this?

Are you not contridicting yourself, or did I misinterprete what you are saying..

The bible describes two different versions of god and is a compilation of a lot of different people writing about a common theme (religion). The book was written by humans just as every other religious text and yet, for some reason, some people read them and come to the conclusion the god exists.

fail to understand that the Bible is the message of God
what proof is there that a diety of some kind had anything to do with any written religious text.

(especially text which has inspired people to kill millions of other people with 'god on their side')
 
  • #134
Why would anyone believe this?

Anyone who clams to be a christian! (over a Billion people)

{snip}..and is a compilation of a lot of different people writing about a common theme (religion). The book was written by humans just as every other religious text and yet...{/snip}
This is absolutly accurate, however as you said yourself in differing words God is (supposed to be) the all knowing all seeing etc. Now the only way one can begin to understand God/diety is by his doing alone, the message of God, handed to his prophets which were written down so as we (others) could understand him...

what proof is there that a diety of some kind had anything to do with any written religious text.
Thats where faith comes in... You have to believe in God before you can believe that His message was writen.

(especially text which has inspired people to kill millions of other people with 'god on their side')

Texts are misinterpreted
 
  • #135
Bilal said:
The Western countries withdrew but they left ‘’protected dictators’’ and new nation/State called (Israel) which established based on religion.
How exactly was Israel established based on religion?
 
  • #136
Anyone who clams to be a christian! (over a Billion people)
I asked why not who.

You have to believe in God before you can believe that His message was writen.
I believe there is a phrase for this particular argument (is it circular?)

e.g. you have to believe in god to believe his/her message but you have to believe in the message to believe in god :confused:
 
  • #137
Palestinian-Israeli citizens are excluded and must carry identification that distinguishes them as "non-Jews"... The are also denied the right of full citizenship...

It may not have been established based on religion but that is the way it is now, Isreal is based on Religion
 
  • #138
Anyone who clams to be a christian! (over a Billion people)

I'll rephrase then, anyone who has Christian FAITH... Thier FAITH is the reason why people believe this...

You have to believe in God before you can believe that His message was writen.

This is not circular, its logical... To believe that Gods message was written you first have to believe there is a God.
 
  • #139
Anttech said:
Palestinian-Israeli citizens are excluded and must carry identification that distinguishes them as "non-Jews"... The are also denied the right of full citizenship...
"excluded"?! What does that mean? All Israeli citizens carry an ID certificate, that used to state their religion - it no longer does after a supreme court ruling. No one is labeled "non-Jewish". No Israeli citizen is denied the right of full citizenship.

Anttech said:
It may not have been established based on religion but that is the way it is now, Isreal is based on Religion
I beg to differ.
 
  • #140
Israel is established as Jews State. This means any person convert to Judaism (usually after complex process) will be granted automatically the Israeli nationality as he/she arrives the country, while people who live there for centuries have no equal right because they are not Jews.

Nobody can ignore the effect of religious parties in Israel today (Shas, Hamevdal ..etc) , also they still used the theory of (promised biblical land) to justify building more settlements in the occupied land.

Important links:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3111727.stm
((Israeli law limits Arab citizenship

The Israeli parliament passed a law preventing Palestinians married to Israelis from gaining Israeli citizenship.
Human rights groups have condemned the law as racist but supporters say it is necessary for security reasons and to maintain the Jewish character of the state of Israel.
The law will prevent Palestinians from the occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza from marrying Arab-Israelis, who make up about 20% of the population of Israel. ))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

For example if USA is considered as homeland of christain Anglo-Saxon , then it is far from democracy ...
 
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  • #141
It is well documented that Isreal does not give the same rights to Non-Jews in Isreal as Jews...
 
  • #142
Bilal said:
Israel is established as Jews State. This means any person convert to Judaism (usually after complex process) will be granted automatically the Israeli nationality as he/she arrives the country, while people who live there for centuries have no equal right because they are not Jews.
People of all religions who have lived in Israel through its establishment have Israeli citizenship. That includes Muslims, Christians and other religions. Anyone marrying an Israeli partner will receive an Israeli citizenship, anyone born in Israel will receive an Israeli citizenship, and so on.
Israel is the only Jewish state in the world. It was established with that as an explicit aim. It does not make it religious.

Bilal said:
Nobody can ignore the effect of religious parties in Israel today (Shas, Hamevdal ..etc) , also they still used the theory of (promised biblical land) to justify building more settlements in the occupied land.
Here is the Israeli Parliament makeup: Likud (secular): 40 seats, Labour (secular): 28 seats, Shinui (anti-religious): 14 seats, Shas (religious): 11 seats, Ihud Leumi (secular and progressive religious): 7 seats, National Religious Party: 4 seats, Agudat Israel (religious): 3 seats, Hadash-Taal (Arab and Communist): 3 seats, National Democratic Assembly (Arab): 3 seats, 4 seats to 2 religious parties and 2 more to an Arab party, 2 independent members, totaling 120 seats.
The decisions and laws passed are done so democratically. The supreme court intervenes sometimes when a law deemed undemocratic is passed.

Bilal said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3111727.stm
((Israeli law limits Arab citizenship

The Israeli parliament passed a law preventing Palestinians married to Israelis from gaining Israeli citizenship.
Human rights groups have condemned the law as racist but supporters say it is necessary for security reasons and to maintain the Jewish character of the state of Israel.
The law will prevent Palestinians from the occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza from marrying Arab-Israelis, who make up about 20% of the population of Israel.
That law has since been discussed in the Supreme court, which decided it is illegal and was returned to the Parliament for ammendment.
 
  • #143
Anttech said:
It is well documented that Isreal does not give the same rights to Non-Jews in Isreal as Jews...
That's a very broad statement, I suppose you expect me to take your word for its validity. Seeing your previous post, I don't think I should.
How about you give us a specific example that we can discuss?
Do excuse me if I don't respond promptly as I'm going to spend the weekend away from home and it might take a while until I view this thread.
 
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  • #144
russ_watters said:
Mostly correct (about my meaning), with the caveat that I said "an awful lot of the bad things", meaning some, but not all of them were corrected. In fact, I think my posts imply that I believe an awful lot of bad things still exist. This sentence was meant to imply exactly that: "And recent rifts suggest we may be nearing a second Reformation." This means that I think there are enough bad things to warrant a second reformation - a second major reorganization of the Catholic Church specifically, and pretty much all of Christianity in general.
True, and finally the Catholic church has begun to address the issue of priests who molest children, though there are a few other glaring matters in need of improvement, such as allowing (or better yet encouraging) the use of condoms to prevent AIDS, etc. With regard to the extremism that we now see here in the US, I can only hope there will be change toward moderation, tolerance, and respect for other people's right to believe differently from the Christian faith (or should I say their interpretation of it) or to have no faith at all. Personally I do not hold much hope for these things.
Bilal said:
...Islam is the only religion who accepts the other religions, which is not the case in Christianity and Judaism...[23]
Agreed that most Christian religions believe one can only be saved through Christ. I do not know whether there is a similar belief in Judaism, or if one can convert. At least Muslims and Jews are not into proselyting as with Christianity. However, I believe Muslims have required conversion by force, for example when invading Iran.

Bottom line, I agree with other posts (Art, Bilal) that religion should be between the individual and God, and kept far away from politics. There is no doubt that religion plays a large role in these terrorist acts.
 
  • #145
One can't help but think back to the inflammatory rhetoric between France and Brittain over the future Olympic site selection. To everyone's surprise, Brittain won. The following day, this occurred. Related, or complelely unrelated?
 
  • #146
McGyver said:
One can't help but think back to the inflammatory rhetoric between France and Brittain over the future Olympic site selection. To everyone's surprise, Brittain won. The following day, this occurred. Related, or complelely unrelated?
Last I heard on the news, it is related to Blair and the holding of certain
individual(s) by the British, and of course Blair's support of Bush/US. As for the timing, speculation is that it has to do with the international nature of the G8 meetings.
 
  • #147
Astronuc said:
And I just realized that this thread seems OT and is getting very close to a religious discussion or discussion of religion, although more from a historical or sociological perspective. Not sure where to go with this - guidance please.
When discussing these terrorists it is impossible to discuss their acts and motivation with discussing their religion because that is the basis for their actions.
 
  • #148
I hate this thread, please stop the deaths.
 
  • #149
Evo said:
When discussing these terrorists it is impossible to discuss their acts and motivation with discussing their religion because that is the basis for their actions.


I must agree.
It is not possible to correctly delve into the psychology of an theological terrorist without also examining their "assumed" relevant interpretations of their own religion.
After all, it is their driving force.
 
  • #150
Evo said:
When discussing these terrorists it is impossible to discuss their acts and motivation with discussing their religion because that is the basis for their actions.

That is a nice scapegoat evo. but religion exist from the beginin of humankind adn terrorist act no more that 30 years or a little more.

Of course religions plays a role in the terrorist but it's not their main motivation. may be religion make them to do crazy acts like killing themselfs but their are mainly motivated by injustices comited by 1st world countrys, for example suporting and helping dictators who killed and tortured them, overtrowing democracys, taking all their natural resources and teching their kids that If out of 10 atheists, 5 are killed by 1 Muslim, 5 would be left. etc...
 

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